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Post by swurveman on Feb 4, 2017 9:17:18 GMT -6
Often in dense pro mixes you can't really judge the reverb. But I heard this ac guitar/vocal track and you can hear the vocal reverb decay perfectly, and how seamless it is imo with the vocal. So, I thought I'd use it as an example I'm looking to get. It's not often you get to hear a famous singer in such a stripped down format.
I always have trouble getting reverb to sit well on a vocal- and yes this includes my Bricasti M7. I just never can seem to get a warm sound throughout with a warm decay like this. This reverb is warm, but you don't hear the decay until the end of the phrases, even though you feel the warmth presence of it all the way through.
So, I'm wondering what kind and type of reverb you think this is and how the engineer got it to compliment the vocal in this way.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Feb 4, 2017 10:16:43 GMT -6
Not sure but , if you nothing is warm enough try proscessing the wet signal. I have run plenty of Reverbs and delays through Neve or CAPI pres or tubes to give them some life.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Feb 4, 2017 12:47:31 GMT -6
I usually heavily filter out top and a fair amount of bottom on the send to the reverb. And then mess a bit with the return.
Notching out some nasty resonant stuff on the way to the verb helps too.
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Post by drbill on Feb 4, 2017 13:06:36 GMT -6
Sounds like a 480L to me. Having a voice like that helps a little too.....
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Post by rowmat on Feb 4, 2017 13:29:16 GMT -6
Try this... Insert a de-esser on the reverb send and monitor the wet return. Play the vocal and listen to how the sibilance sounds within the reverb. Progressively increase the amount of de-essing until the sibilance ceases sounding splashy and/or fizzy in the reverb field. Don't worry about using quite a lot of de-essing as you are not effecting the original vocal. This will make the reverb sound smoother and can also make it subjectively warmer by removing the splashy high frequency artifacts caused by the verb reacting to excessive sibilance which tends to distract from other more subtle elements of the reverb. Bright plate settings especially benefit from this. The problem with just EQ'ing the return instead of the send is this will tend to take the life and air out of the verb. We have a SPL hardware de-esser patched into both sends of our 480L
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Post by ragan on Feb 4, 2017 14:20:17 GMT -6
Maybe a dumb question here but I'm asking it anyway.
If I've got a reverb on an aux in PT, is the difference between "EQing the send" and "EQing the return" the same thing as having the EQ (or de-esser or whatever) inserted before or after the reverb, i.e. affecting what hits the reverb as opposed to affecting what the reverb is outputting?
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Post by rowmat on Feb 4, 2017 14:40:30 GMT -6
Maybe a dumb question here but I'm asking it anyway. If I've got a reverb on an aux in PT, is the difference between "EQing the send" and "EQing the return" the same thing as having the EQ (or de-esser or whatever) inserted before or after the reverb, i.e. affecting what hits the reverb as opposed to affecting what the reverb is outputting? Yes same thing. I find it more beneficial to reduce anything you don't want in the verb by treating the send rather than the return. EQ'ing the return is basically trying to hide the stuff the reverb has already processed that you don't want. Better off not sending it the first place IMO.
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Post by ragan on Feb 4, 2017 14:48:01 GMT -6
Maybe a dumb question here but I'm asking it anyway. If I've got a reverb on an aux in PT, is the difference between "EQing the send" and "EQing the return" the same thing as having the EQ (or de-esser or whatever) inserted before or after the reverb, i.e. affecting what hits the reverb as opposed to affecting what the reverb is outputting? Yes same thing. I find it more beneficial to reduce anything you don't want in the verb by treating the send rather than the return. EQ'ing the return is basically trying to hide the stuff the reverb has already processed that you don't want. Better off not sending it the first place IMO. Yeah, totally. Me too. Was just making sure there wasn't something I've been missing about what "sends" and "returns" as they relate to DAWs and auxes. Thanks.
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Post by rowmat on Feb 4, 2017 15:16:07 GMT -6
Of course you can still EQ the return to taste as well if you want.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 4, 2017 16:54:24 GMT -6
Sounds like a 480L to me. Having a voice like that helps a little too..... Sounds like a plate to me. Were you thinking about the 489L's plates?
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Post by swurveman on Feb 4, 2017 17:00:41 GMT -6
Try this... Insert a de-esser on the reverb send and monitor the wet return. Play the vocal and listen to how the sibilance sounds within the reverb. Progressively increase the amount of de-essing until the sibilance ceases sounding splashy and/or fizzy in the reverb field. Don't worry about using quite a lot of de-essing as you are not effecting the original vocal. This will make the reverb sound smoother and can also make it subjectively warmer by removing the splashy high frequency artifacts caused by the verb reacting to excessive sibilance which tends to distract from other more subtle elements of the reverb. Bright plate settings especially benefit from this. The problem with just EQ'ing the return instead of the send is this will tend to take the life and air out of the verb. We have a SPL hardware de-esser patched into both sends of our 480L I'll try the deeser trick. Thanks. I was trying out the Abbey Road plate today and - to get rid of that bright mettalic sound- I turned the treble all the way down. That helped, but there's still that warmth and decay that I just can't get. Perhaps I need a better mic that accentuates the low end of my voice to trigger the lows of the plate. I think plates are one thing that plugins just haven't gotten close enough to the real thing. Wish real one's weren't so rare and expensive.
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Post by rowmat on Feb 4, 2017 17:11:29 GMT -6
Try this... Insert a de-esser on the reverb send and monitor the wet return. Play the vocal and listen to how the sibilance sounds within the reverb. Progressively increase the amount of de-essing until the sibilance ceases sounding splashy and/or fizzy in the reverb field. Don't worry about using quite a lot of de-essing as you are not effecting the original vocal. This will make the reverb sound smoother and can also make it subjectively warmer by removing the splashy high frequency artifacts caused by the verb reacting to excessive sibilance which tends to distract from other more subtle elements of the reverb. Bright plate settings especially benefit from this. The problem with just EQ'ing the return instead of the send is this will tend to take the life and air out of the verb. We have a SPL hardware de-esser patched into both sends of our 480L I'll try the deeser trick. Thanks. I was trying out the Abbey Road plate today and - to get rid of that bright mettalic sound- I turned the treble all the way down. That helped, but there's still that warmth and decay that I just can't get. Perhaps I need a better mic that accentuates the low end of my voice to trigger the lows of the plate. I think plates are one thing that plugins just haven't gotten close enough to the real thing. Wish real one's weren't so rare and expens Typically the driver stages of real plates, especially old EMT's, had pretty poor high frequency responses likely rolling off by 5khz or so.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 5, 2017 4:20:19 GMT -6
Maybe a dumb question here but I'm asking it anyway. If I've got a reverb on an aux in PT, is the difference between "EQing the send" and "EQing the return" the same thing as having the EQ (or de-esser or whatever) inserted before or after the reverb, i.e. affecting what hits the reverb as opposed to affecting what the reverb is outputting? Eq the send in PT land sounds to me like placing an eq before the reverb on the same aux track. Likewise, a post fader send will send the treated audio ( plugin/ HW inserts ) to the aux track. Also, I usually use an eq even if using the plugins built in filters after the reverb/ delay plugin on the aux track. Most consoles have eq pre fader or post fader so when touting to a new channel to insert the reverb on they would eq the send on that channel of the console before inserting the reverb.. Anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong 🤓😀
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 5, 2017 6:27:15 GMT -6
I always have trouble getting reverb to sit well on a vocal- and yes this includes my Bricasti M7. I just never can seem to get a warm sound throughout with a warm decay like this. This reverb is warm, but you don't hear the decay until the end of the phrases, even though you feel the warmth presence of it all the way through. So, I'm wondering what kind and type of reverb you think this is and how the engineer got it to compliment the vocal in this way. I always was waiting to give something back, for the advises I took... now I can. Just a few thoughts which I learned from my mentor BL, but also from a few DP Videos. In my book its most often a combination of reverb and delay! Reverb is for depth, delay is for dimension (left and right walls). A very good read on using delays to simulate dimension (near walls) is written by Bob Katz in his Book Mastering Audio: In other words if you have a dry recording you have to use delays to simulate wall reflections. I do not know who is mixing Sting but he is a master in doing delay and reverb on the LV. You have a ribbon between the speakers and you still have the impression the LV is in front of you. Most of the time I have two stereo delays running in a mix. One simulating wide walls for left and right. And one which is not too wide but more in the background with rolled off LF and HF. If you mix this with your reverb you will see that it sits in the mix, because your brain needs reflections (Haas effect) to calculate the distance to the direct signal. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedence_effect
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Post by swurveman on Feb 5, 2017 7:41:09 GMT -6
I always have trouble getting reverb to sit well on a vocal- and yes this includes my Bricasti M7. I just never can seem to get a warm sound throughout with a warm decay like this. This reverb is warm, but you don't hear the decay until the end of the phrases, even though you feel the warmth presence of it all the way through. So, I'm wondering what kind and type of reverb you think this is and how the engineer got it to compliment the vocal in this way. If you mix this with your reverb you will see that it sits in the mix, because your brain needs reflections (Haas effect) to calculate the distance to the direct signal. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedence_effectWhy not use a room for the early reflections instead of a Haas based 30-40 ms delay?
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Post by guitfiddler on Feb 5, 2017 9:17:34 GMT -6
The Bricasti can easily do that sound. It sounds like a Long Plate or maybe even a Hall algorithm. Dave Pensado has a video on using the Bricasti on vocals in the box. That should give you more insight on this subject. I can't remember what episode, so you will have to do a search on You Tube.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Feb 5, 2017 9:32:06 GMT -6
Something else I do that I was shown years ago is to add a compressor after the reverb.
And messing with the pre delay setting is something I'll take a lot of time to tweak. Especially if the LV is so out in front without much else happening.
Lots of the big name dudes always say that using delays instead of verbs helps to not cloud things up too much. I usually use a combo of the two.
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 5, 2017 10:21:04 GMT -6
If you mix this with your reverb you will see that it sits in the mix, because your brain needs reflections (Haas effect) to calculate the distance to the direct signal. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedence_effectWhy not use a room for the early reflections instead of a Haas based 30-40 ms delay? IMO you have more control over the feel... but that's just me. And I am pretty sure your M7 should do it without any tricks... Try both and choose what you like.
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Post by Ward on Feb 5, 2017 11:16:28 GMT -6
If you mix this with your reverb you will see that it sits in the mix, because your brain needs reflections (Haas effect) to calculate the distance to the direct signal. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedence_effectWhy not use a room for the early reflections instead of a Haas based 30-40 ms delay? It's been my experience that early reflections in a room tend to sound boxy and/or tubby. And they can make things sound like they were recorded in a garage, and not a good one either. Using straight short digital delays can be cleaner, easier to deal with EQ wise and have little to no phase issues. (theoretically impossible but you know how theories don't always work out)
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Post by swurveman on Feb 5, 2017 11:25:41 GMT -6
Why not use a room for the early reflections instead of a Haas based 30-40 ms delay? It's been my experience that early reflections in a room tend to sound boxy and/or tubby. And they can make things sound like they were recorded in a garage, and not a good one either. Using straight short digital delays can be cleaner, easier to deal with EQ wise and have little to no phase issues. (theoretically impossible but you know how theories don't always work out) Are you talking about vocals or for all instruments? I would not say any of the rooms of the Bricasti sound boxy or tubby. However, I don't think the plates are as warm and smooth as real ones.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Feb 5, 2017 11:46:37 GMT -6
Treating a send with EQ or Compression or anything is going to make The verb respond to that treatment, EQing or treating the return is an effort to respond to what the verb is doing ! Which will get you to the promised land? Depends on what you don't like about the verb, do remember digital devices have a limited headroom and boosting the send can eat up your head room!
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Post by Ward on Feb 5, 2017 13:33:48 GMT -6
It's been my experience that early reflections in a room tend to sound boxy and/or tubby. And they can make things sound like they were recorded in a garage, and not a good one either. Using straight short digital delays can be cleaner, easier to deal with EQ wise and have little to no phase issues. (theoretically impossible but you know how theories don't always work out) Are you talking about vocals or for all instruments? I would not say any of the rooms of the Bricasti sound boxy or tubby. However, I don't think the plates are as warm and smooth as real ones. I was thinking with regards to drums but also with vocals sometimes too.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Feb 5, 2017 15:14:27 GMT -6
Are you talking about vocals or for all instruments? I would not say any of the rooms of the Bricasti sound boxy or tubby. However, I don't think the plates are as warm and smooth as real ones. I was thinking with regards to drums but also with vocals sometimes too. Mixed and produced a CD for a woman who hate hate hated delay all she would say is "no delay I on my voice" Well I ended up using almost no reverb on her voice, all delays! I couldn't bring in a box that said "delay" and all the presets I used had to have verb in the name! Eric's Rule #6 of Audio it's not what they say it's what they mean / what the talent doesn't know won't hurt them!
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Post by Ward on Feb 5, 2017 15:24:04 GMT -6
ericn how you mix when they're in the room is not how you mix when they leave.
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 5, 2017 16:09:44 GMT -6
I was thinking with regards to drums but also with vocals sometimes too. Mixed and produced a CD for a woman who hate hate hated delay all she would say is "no delay I on my voice" Well I ended up using almost no reverb on her voice, all delays! I couldn't bring in a box that said "delay" and all the presets I used had to have verb in the name! Eric's Rule #6 of Audio it's not what they say it's what they mean / what the talent doesn't know won't hurt them! I remember playing 8 bars E guitar Solo completely new.... I thought they will complain but no one even asked...LOL
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