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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 30, 2017 9:54:26 GMT -6
I'd love to have the ability to analyze my benchmark tracks, and then have a plug-in that can help me emulate that. For instance, Lyle Lovette's "Road to Ensenada", Mark Knopfler's "Sailing to Philadelphia" and Ryan Adams "Two" are my go to tracks for reference.
After all the tracking, all the EQ-ing and plug-in choices, setting up the 2 bus with plugs for tape, compression, EQ, etc., things can get a little confusing. I'd love to have a few templates that get me in the ballpark of the general tone, reverb type and level, panning, volume, compression levels of those tracks.
I recently got the Smooth plug-in, it analyzes on the fly and automatically adjusts the aggressive peaks to keep everything under control. Something like that, but with an analysis memory, and ability to show the settings it might take to emulate that.
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Post by javamad on Jan 30, 2017 10:00:24 GMT -6
I have thought about this too ... of course the minute it works well, 'mixing' as an activity becomes redundant. It will just be a question of running a recorded song through the system and say "make it sound like X".
Of course people will be recording string quartets and asking the plugin to make it sound like the The Rolling Stones!
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Post by EmRR on Jan 30, 2017 10:43:33 GMT -6
I don't imagine an effective way of doing this. Maybe if all music sounded identical in the first place. I encountered a hi-fi guy thread elsewhere in which someone is a proponent of 'unmastering' music for hi-fi purposes, re-EQing to a uniform energy curve. Ignores all intent along the path.
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Post by svart on Jan 30, 2017 11:02:32 GMT -6
Nothing works better than asking someone else to listen and compare for you. I recently got a mastering gig because the band liked my mixes, so they paid me to listen and critique, then master the album once they got the mixes fixed.
Worked pretty well I think. I identified some issues with the mix, as well as made suggestions for tone of the songs. They came back with mixes that were much improved and more like they intended originally, and I didn't have to do nearly as much "fixing" during the mastering and could focus more on adding the sugar to their mixes.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 30, 2017 11:17:08 GMT -6
I know, it's all my fault! With the firepower I already have, the odds are I'm not using some of those plug-ins things to their full capabilities.
It would be fun to be able to see exactly where the differences are between my tracks and my benchmarks though. That's a good suggestion Jesse. Maybe I'll begin asking a few friends to have a quick listen and make suggestions.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 30, 2017 11:28:31 GMT -6
I don't imagine an effective way of doing this. Maybe if all music sounded identical in the first place. I encountered a hi-fi guy thread elsewhere in which someone is a proponent of 'unmastering' music for hi-fi, purposes, re-EQing to a uniform energy curve. Ignores all intent along the path. Yeah The problem with what Martin wants is it's reducing art to a formula, and you have no idea how you would give weight to anything in particular!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 30, 2017 11:40:56 GMT -6
I realize that in a way it's a cheat, but I was thinking of it as a way that I might learn faster exactly what steps I need to make in order to get closer to those benchmarks. I'd see it as more of a learning tool, and maybe a quick master mix helper you could then tweak to taste.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 30, 2017 12:22:20 GMT -6
Lots of analysis software will let you make a long time window capture, and then compare two to plot difference. At least Spectrafoo Complete will. Surely there are freebies nowadays that will.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 30, 2017 12:48:01 GMT -6
I realize that in a way it's a cheat, but I was thinking of it as a way that I might learn faster exactly what steps I need to make in order to get closer to those benchmarks. I'd see it as more of a learning tool, and maybe a quick master mix helper you could then tweak to taste. An RTA is a great tool for solving and pointing out system problems, I would never mix wedges without one. From a musical standpoint it's pretty useless and you will be pretty shocked how little information it really gives you on a loud or dynamic mix that isn't sparse. You also need to understand how the filters work and interact and when you see how that translates in musical terms you will see how little it tells you about a mix!
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Post by pope on Jan 30, 2017 14:39:33 GMT -6
There is a reason why most people still prefer this: ...over this:
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 30, 2017 17:33:14 GMT -6
I hear that pope. I really would like a thorough analysis of everything I do, tracking levels, saturations, phasing, reverb EQ, panning, mix bus compression, etc. But if I could see where the important sonic differences are between my recordings and my benchmarks, it would be a good beginning to improve my mixes.
After that, I could probably set up a template that gets me 85% of the way there quickly.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 31, 2017 8:59:26 GMT -6
You can find comparisons which look the same, with some sounding terrible and some sounding great. Guaranteed.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 31, 2017 9:22:51 GMT -6
Martin,
I think you will get to the place you want faster, and learn more, by doing a remake of those songs recorded by yourself. Import the song into your DAW. Listen carefully. Learn the parts-or have musician friends learn them- record them and mix it. Listen to your version and note the differences. Were the differences in instrument choice, mic placement, mix placement in the stereo field, reverb/dely type, frequency differences, compression, depth-width-height- etc. etc.
While it would be great to have software tell you the shape of the room, whether a plate or hall reverb was used, how much bus compression, how much high end lift on the vocal etc. etc.- I don't think it's going to exist, and any simple frequency curve software isn't going to tell you those things anyway.
There may be things holding you back to getting as close as possible, but in the end you can only use the tools you have. So, using them and getting close as possible by redoing it is the best way imo.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 31, 2017 9:38:05 GMT -6
Thanks swurveman. I've been mulling over a few options regarding many of the songs I've done the last two years. One, I'd prefer a real drummer on most of them, and that would mean paying someone fairly and then remixing. Second, some of the vocals are edgy, but the performance is really good. I've tried to sooth the savage beast, but haven't gotten far. My problem there is I just need a U67 for my voice, and substitutes aren't quite right. I'll get there, but for now, I have to work with what I have.
I've gotten much better at some things, better gain staging, more flexibility in reverb choices, 2 bus plugs dialed in a little better, etc. So the dilemma is, do I simply call it on those tracks and say they're demos, (which only makes sense if I plan to solicit them), or do I push through, get some real drums, retrack vocals, (hoping they're better, but that's iffy), and get some help mixing to eventually make a new album.
I definitely don't want to repeat the process I used the last few years. Every new track I start will have a plan, and a clear production template. Usually, I fit sessions in between my work schedule, so it never feels quite like a serious session in a studio.
Now, if I could only afford to, I'd head on down to Nashville, and see if some of the cats there could help me redo all of them quickly. Unfortunately, my income's been vanishing, so that's not possible right now..
That sends me back to where I started, I need to get some traction with what I have to hopefully give me a boost toward my next group of recordings.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 31, 2017 9:46:02 GMT -6
Thanks swurveman. I've been mulling over a few options regarding many of the songs I've done the last two years. One, I'd prefer a real drummer on most of them, and that would mean paying someone fairly and then remixing. Second, some of the vocals are edgy, but the performance is really good. I've tried to sooth the savage beast, but haven't gotten far. My problem there is I just need a U67 for my voice, and substitutes aren't quite right. I'll get there, but for now, I have to work with what I have. I've gotten much better at some things, better gain staging, more flexibility in reverb choices, 2 bus plugs dialed in a little better, etc. So the dilemma is, do I simply call it on those tracks and say they're demos, (which only makes sense if I plan to solicit them), or do I push through, get some real drums, retrack vocals, (hoping they're better, but that's iffy), and get some help mixing to eventually make a new album. I definitely don't want to repeat the process I used the last few years. Every new track I start will have a plan, and a clear production template. Usually, I fit sessions in between my work schedule, so it never feels quite like a serious session in a studio. Now, if I could only afford to, I'd head on down to Nashville, and see if some of the cats there could help me redo all of them quickly. Unfortunately, my income's been vanishing, so that's not possible right now.. That sends me back to where I started, I need to get some traction with what I have to hopefully give me a boost toward my next group of recordings. I would think this is as good a time as any to book studio time with a 67 and use theirs. Same for tracking a real drummer. Yes, this money could go for more gear, but with studio time so cheap now if you need a drummer and a U67 why wait? Your time performing your songs won't take many takes and a pro drummer, particularly if you've programmed the drums already but just don't like how your drum sequencer sounds, won't take long either.
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Post by jimwilliams on Jan 31, 2017 10:13:19 GMT -6
Looking back I can recall when all those famous arteests recorded their albums none of them were concerned with the "if I only had that x brand of mic" stuff. Mostly it was a reflection of the performance, never the gear/studio choices.
All the time and energy some waste on those details today was used back then to perfect performances.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 31, 2017 11:55:29 GMT -6
No doubt you're right Jim. The difference is obviously that we're trying to approach that at home, or in our basements or project studios, so it's only natural we look to the gear that was used to make those recordings. I agree that it's taken my focus away from the quality of my writing and performance. I guess I need to start playing out more. That shakes things up real quick.
That's one reason I've worked hard to catch up. When I was a recording artist, I never paid attention to he gear, only the music, and maybe suggested a few things on a mix. Later, when I began producing jingles in he late 80's, I used top studios and engineers, but I began to look at the gear and the process, and started making some creative choices. Having some success, I bought my own gear to write and produce the lower budget commercials in my place, to save money. It worked beautifully, but I had to get a little deeper into it all. I had Neumann mics, Lexicon Reverb and delay, DBX compressors, a Yamaha soundboard, NS 10's,and an Adcom amp, and 2 track and 8 track tape recorders. All considered "vintage" now, ha!
I left the music business for more than a decade due to illness and only came back five years ago. I didn't even know what a plug-in was then! So now that I've caught up somewhat, and combined my writing, playing, engineering and producing, I do get lost in wearing too many hats sometimes. Recently, I've tried to get a satisfying basic production set up I can just use for a while, but yet again, I want a different mic, a better converter, and on and on.
I'll have to just force myself to get back to playing music first, wish me luck, gear is a tender trap :-)
* that's one reason for my post, I'd love to have a quick tracking and mixing template that gets me the sounds I want, so I can focus on the music more than the gear and production again. I also hope to reach out and get some help with all this soon.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2017 12:15:37 GMT -6
Martin - Judging by the songs you've posted I think you've got a fantastic voice. The mixes you put up stand up too. This doesn't help your predicament, but thought you should know.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 31, 2017 13:45:41 GMT -6
No doubt you're right Jim. The difference is obviously that we're trying to approach that at home, or in our basements or project studios, so it's only natural we look to the gear that was used to make those recordings. I agree that it's taken my focus away from the quality of my writing and performance. I guess I need to start playing out more. That shakes things up real quick. That's one reason I've worked hard to catch up. When I was a recording artist, I never paid attention to he gear, only the music, and maybe suggested a few things on a mix. Later, when I began producing jingles in he late 80's, I used top studios and engineers, but I began to look at the gear and the process, and started making some creative choices. Having some success, I bought my own gear to write and produce the lower budget commercials in my place, to save money. It worked beautifully, but I had to get a little deeper into it all. I had Neumann mics, Lexicon Reverb and delay, DBX compressors, a Yamaha soundboard, NS 10's,and an Adcom amp, and 2 track and 8 track tape recorders. All considered "vintage" now, ha! I left the music business for more than a decade due to illness and only came back five years ago. I didn't even know what a plug-in was then! So now that I've caught up somewhat, and combined my writing, playing, engineering and producing, I do get lost in wearing too many hats sometimes. Recently, I've tried to get a satisfying basic production set up I can just use for a while, but yet again, I want a different mic, a better converter, and on and on. I'll have to just force myself to get back to playing music first, wish me luck, gear is a tender trap :-) * that's one reason for my post, I'd love to have a quick tracking and mixing template that gets me the sounds I want, so I can focus on the music more than the gear and production again. I also hope to reach out and get some help with all this soon. [ Martin, you know I love your work as writer , performer and I think your ahead of the curve as a producer/ engineer; but as I have said before there are no shortcuts! Most of us have worked as pros have spent as much time developing our skills as you have as a musician. However as a musician you have an advantage over the Frey! Listen study, but remember most of what we do is in the world of thinking like an arranger, spend your time studying and thinking like an arranger, that will get you further faster not trying to see the parts, that's the wrong sense listen that's what will get you there, listen my friend it's a long road but that's the quickest route.
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Post by wiz on Jan 31, 2017 15:13:55 GMT -6
If you really want to just get on with recording, and stop futzing about.... Get someone, who's work you like, pay them...to come to your place... and get them to set up the things you want to record.... get the sounds you want happening under their guidance.... Get them to build the template for you. ericn is right. There is just no shortcuts. You have the ears and experience of the producer and artist... use those.... cheers Wiz
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Post by rowmat on Jan 31, 2017 15:40:53 GMT -6
If you are trying to mix in an untreated apartment I would look at some acoustic treatment. No template or plugin will fix that.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 1, 2017 2:24:59 GMT -6
rowmat took the words out of my post. Every video of yours I see no treatment, no bass traps, no panels or gobos. Are your monitors on stands or they sitting on your desk? Maybe some ISO acoustics stands will help you hear/ mix more efficiently. I feel the room being treated is a must and necessary. You can't mix what you can't hear.. So room, monitors, play a huge role in that, as well as the DA going to your monitors.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 2, 2017 9:08:26 GMT -6
Thanks to all of you for your support and thoughtful suggestions. Chase, you're so right. Unfortunately, where I record is my living room, and my already feels like she lives in a studio, so I just can't push it any further. That leaves me with developing a new recording system. First I have to salvage what I've done, then, as I begin new things, I think I'll try a mixture of these suggestions. I'll see about doing a vocal in a studio, and definitely just get a real drummer somehow.
I'm thinking on how to use what I've done so far, and I'll need a few days to meditate on what the best plan will be.
* The OEK Sound plug-in Sooth does a nice job of real time analysis and compresses only at the points in a vocal that are edgy, but stays away fro the rest. It's kind of like a fader ride, but for the harsh frequencies, not just volume. It's not perfect, but it helps. I can also see where it's hitting, and try to track with a pinch of subtractive EQ at those trouble frequencies., this way I may not have to do it in a DAW.
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