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Post by wiz on Dec 26, 2016 15:40:58 GMT -6
I do this thing, where I use a gate for groove...(not talking about SIDECHAINING)
I havent actually seen anyone else do it.. but of course many will have...
You know, how you can make a compressor pump and the attack and release time can make the sound groove?
Well I often do the same thing with a gate.
By setting the threshold ( you will have to automate or manually ride it at times to allow sustained notes, like the end of the song, to come through) and the release time, you can really tighten up a sound.. like acoustic guitar (Picked, muted type rhythms especially) and bass.... etc
For me, the most expensive sounding part of audio, is silence.
Things sound "expensive" and really good, when the silence is silent.
I spend a lot of time, getting that "black curtain", it really helps my stuff sound ... cleaner, and better than it is... 8)
The gate I do this with is mostly MR GATE from WaveArts. Because it does a good visual representation of whats happening.
When you set it right, like all things in mixing, you don't notice it till you turn it off... its tricky, takes a bit of work to get the vibe happening... but well worth the effort....
so.... If I am the first to do this... I christen it the "Wiz Gate Trick"...
if not... let me have my 15 minutes anyways..... LOL
cheers
Wiz
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Post by bowie on Dec 26, 2016 16:13:29 GMT -6
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing but when I've had dense mixes with drum and verb gates (particularly drum machines/samples), I find I sometimes need to consider the rhythm when adjusting the timing of the gate. Reverbed drum samples are a perfect example because they are predictable and you can time the gate to work with the rhythm.
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Post by wiz on Dec 26, 2016 17:25:47 GMT -6
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing but when I've had dense mixes with drum and verb gates (particularly drum machines/samples), I find I sometimes need to consider the rhythm when adjusting the timing of the gate. Reverbed drum samples are a perfect example because they are predictable and you can time the gate to work with the rhythm. Sort of.... I just find, that using the gate creatively, shortens the sustain of the notes, in a rhythmic and musical way.. and the silence that it creates allows the groove to pop through... cheers Wiz |
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Post by svart on Dec 26, 2016 18:06:06 GMT -6
I use gates to round the attack of snare and kick.
People make a huge deal about drum transients needing to be preserved, but I find that the drum sounds on the biggest records are very rounded attack.
I also find that trying to get a loud mix together is always hindered by too much attack from instruments in general.
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Post by iamasound on Dec 26, 2016 20:53:51 GMT -6
Are you talking about creating a groove or highlighting a groove, that is, highlighting the accents of a rhythmic part with a gate?
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Post by Ward on Dec 26, 2016 21:00:38 GMT -6
got some great hardware gates available if anyone needs some!
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Post by wiz on Dec 26, 2016 22:13:40 GMT -6
Are you talking about creating a groove or highlighting a groove, that is, highlighting the accents of a rhythmic part with a gate? Sort of neither... say you have a palm muted sort of acoustic rhythm... not full open strums.. or a vibrato laden clean start through a princeton amp... You can set the threshold of the gate, and the gates release time.. to reduce the volume of the ass end of the sound.. You can smoothly reduce the sustain of a bass note.... It allows "holes" of black curtain to come through... make sense now? cheers Wiz |
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Post by wiz on Dec 26, 2016 22:14:15 GMT -6
got some great hardware gates available if anyone needs some! wrought iron.. or wood? 8P cheers Wiz |
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Post by EmRR on Dec 26, 2016 23:36:16 GMT -6
Sorta just slightly related, maybe, I was mixing some tracks today that were just K/S/OH on drums, with the OH being the best sounding for all parts, but the cymbals were hotter than the snare. Duped the OH and gated it to be just K/S, turned the original down -3, and the gated version -9 to get the snare the same volume and the cymbals down -3. Added a touch of small room ambience to the gated snare, and there's no obvious clue gating was done.
Wait a minute.....I was the guy bitching about parallel compression.....
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Post by Ward on Dec 27, 2016 4:26:48 GMT -6
got some great hardware gates available if anyone needs some! wrought iron.. or wood? Why, both, of course!! |
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Post by donr on Dec 27, 2016 8:29:18 GMT -6
Note durations are important.
I dig what you say about silence, Wiz.
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Post by swurveman on Dec 27, 2016 9:04:11 GMT -6
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing but when I've had dense mixes with drum and verb gates (particularly drum machines/samples), I find I sometimes need to consider the rhythm when adjusting the timing of the gate. Reverbed drum samples are a perfect example because they are predictable and you can time the gate to work with the rhythm. Where did you get your Revebed drum samples? I have been looking for what Andy Wallace calls ambient snares. I could make them myself, but it would be easier to buy them if the price is right. |
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Post by bowie on Dec 27, 2016 12:28:50 GMT -6
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing but when I've had dense mixes with drum and verb gates (particularly drum machines/samples), I find I sometimes need to consider the rhythm when adjusting the timing of the gate. Reverbed drum samples are a perfect example because they are predictable and you can time the gate to work with the rhythm. Where did you get your Revebed drum samples? I have been looking for what Andy Wallace calls ambient snares. I could make them myself, but it would be easier to buy them if the price is right. Just collecting them over the years. Some from old drum machines and keyboards, others from sample libraries, from software like BFD, snares I've tracked myself, etc. Andy makes it look real easy there but finding one that blends with the one you're mixing at the time (without sounding like two different pitches or two drums, not being phasey, etc) is the real challenge. If you're looking to pick some up, I recommend sample libraries. |
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 27, 2016 21:44:01 GMT -6
Are you talking about creating a groove or highlighting a groove, that is, highlighting the accents of a rhythmic part with a gate? Sort of neither... say you have a palm muted sort of acoustic rhythm... not full open strums.. or a vibrato laden clean start through a princeton amp... You can set the threshold of the gate, and the gates release time.. to reduce the volume of the ass end of the sound.. You can smoothly reduce the sustain of a bass note.... It allows "holes" of black curtain to come through... make sense now? cheers Wiz Hhmmm..... I dunno - I sometimes find those "holes of black curtain" to be somewhat distracting. Not that I'm avocating in any way for an audible addition of noise for "effect, color, analog, quantum. etc." (which is utterly annoying) but the sudden absence of anything kinda draws attention to itself sometimes, y'know? In stagecraft the black curtain is supposed to be invisible... |
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Post by wiz on Dec 28, 2016 0:17:36 GMT -6
Sort of neither... say you have a palm muted sort of acoustic rhythm... not full open strums.. or a vibrato laden clean start through a princeton amp... You can set the threshold of the gate, and the gates release time.. to reduce the volume of the ass end of the sound.. You can smoothly reduce the sustain of a bass note.... It allows "holes" of black curtain to come through... make sense now? cheers Wiz Hhmmm..... I dunno - I sometimes find those "holes of black curtain" to be somewhat distracting. Not that I'm avocating in any way for an audible addition of noise for "effect, color, analog, quantum. etc." (which is utterly annoying) but the sudden absence of anything kinda draws attention to itself sometimes, y'know? In stagecraft the black curtain is supposed to be invisible... To me, its the most expensive part of sound... silence... and it is invisible. .... 8) Only from dark, can come the light that you expose by having sound... oooh a bit profound.... 8) I will have to post an audio example...(its no ones fault but mine for poor explanation) but no one is really catching my drift here... cheers Wiz |
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Post by iamasound on Dec 28, 2016 7:18:17 GMT -6
Are you talking about creating a groove or highlighting a groove, that is, highlighting the accents of a rhythmic part with a gate? Sort of neither... say you have a palm muted sort of acoustic rhythm... not full open strums.. or a vibrato laden clean start through a princeton amp... You can set the threshold of the gate, and the gates release time.. to reduce the volume of the ass end of the sound.. You can smoothly reduce the sustain of a bass note.... It allows "holes" of black curtain to come through... make sense now? cheers Wiz Yes, thanks. I should have framed my question by using the phrase "sculpting" instead. |
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Post by bowie on Dec 28, 2016 10:49:39 GMT -6
Hhmmm..... I dunno - I sometimes find those "holes of black curtain" to be somewhat distracting. Not that I'm avocating in any way for an audible addition of noise for "effect, color, analog, quantum. etc." (which is utterly annoying) but the sudden absence of anything kinda draws attention to itself sometimes, y'know? In stagecraft the black curtain is supposed to be invisible... To me, its the most expensive part of sound... silence... and it is invisible. .... 8) Only from dark, can come the light that you expose by having sound... oooh a bit profound.... 8) I will have to post an audio example...(its no ones fault but mine for poor explanation) but no one is really catching my drift here... cheers Wiz I understand what you're saying. I've seen it referred to that way in hi-fi circles and it does sound more expensive because high-end gear often has lower noise. A "black" background is a goal in hifi. I also agree with John's points. I used to do the typical thing and remove all passages of non-musical content (because that's what people do) even though I personally found sudden and stark blackness to be distracting and unnatural feeling. I've talked with a few people about the psychology of recording and, in discussing "pleasing" types of distortion, some say that even noise has it's place. I am not entirely sure how I feel about that but I must say that knowing where the "background" is at is something my ears like. Have you ever been in a dark room and felt that you could "hear" the shape of the room? Small noises create reflections and give you a sense of the space that you're in. Definitely a more comfortable room to be in than a completely silent one. When I can get away with it, I like leaving certain mics "open" for that little bit of bleed, noise, room, etc. Not a lot, just a little. It might go against the rules but my instincts tell me it "feels" better. Anyhow, we've probably expanded on the black curtain subject far more than you ever intended to with this thread so sorry for the distraction.  |
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 28, 2016 15:04:14 GMT -6
To me, its the most expensive part of sound... silence... and it is invisible. .... 8) Only from dark, can come the light that you expose by having sound... oooh a bit profound.... 8) I will have to post an audio example...(its no ones fault but mine for poor explanation) but no one is really catching my drift here... cheers Wiz I understand what you're saying. I've seen it referred to that way in hi-fi circles and it does sound more expensive because high-end gear often has lower noise. A "black" background is a goal in hifi. I also agree with John's points. I used to do the typical thing and remove all passages of non-musical content (because that's what people do) even though I personally found sudden and stark blackness to be distracting and unnatural feeling. I've talked with a few people about the psychology of recording and, in discussing "pleasing" types of distortion, some say that even noise has it's place. I am not entirely sure how I feel about that but I must say that knowing where the "background" is at is something my ears like. Have you ever been in a dark room and felt that you could "hear" the shape of the room? Small noises create reflections and give you a sense of the space that you're in. Definitely a more comfortable room to be in than a completely silent one. When I can get away with it, I like leaving certain mics "open" for that little bit of bleed, noise, room, etc. Not a lot, just a little. It might go against the rules but my instincts tell me it "feels" better. Anyhow, we've probably expanded on the black curtain subject far more than you ever intended to with this thread so sorry for the distraction. Probably have but there's one little thing I'd like to add - How many people here have actually been in an anechoic chamber? If you have, then you're probably aware that a total absence of all sound produces a definitely uneasy feeling in most, if not all people. |
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Post by wiz on Dec 28, 2016 15:19:31 GMT -6
I understand what you're saying. I've seen it referred to that way in hi-fi circles and it does sound more expensive because high-end gear often has lower noise. A "black" background is a goal in hifi. I also agree with John's points. I used to do the typical thing and remove all passages of non-musical content (because that's what people do) even though I personally found sudden and stark blackness to be distracting and unnatural feeling. I've talked with a few people about the psychology of recording and, in discussing "pleasing" types of distortion, some say that even noise has it's place. I am not entirely sure how I feel about that but I must say that knowing where the "background" is at is something my ears like. Have you ever been in a dark room and felt that you could "hear" the shape of the room? Small noises create reflections and give you a sense of the space that you're in. Definitely a more comfortable room to be in than a completely silent one. When I can get away with it, I like leaving certain mics "open" for that little bit of bleed, noise, room, etc. Not a lot, just a little. It might go against the rules but my instincts tell me it "feels" better. Anyhow, we've probably expanded on the black curtain subject far more than you ever intended to with this thread so sorry for the distraction. Probably have but there's one little thing I'd like to add - How many people here have actually been in an anechoic chamber? If you have, then you're probably aware that a total absence of all sound produces a defionitely uneasy feeling in most, if not all people. I havent been in an anechoic chamber.... but last year when I came over to visit all you knuckleheads...8), Shannon took a few of us through Blackbird... we went into the studio that Massenburg used to be in... when we walked in that room, I felt uncomfortable .... then I walked into the vocal booth attached to it, and it FREAKED me out!!! 8) I couldnt stay in there ...i have never really felt claustrophobic, but that room really unsettled me... I couldn't have spent a couple of minutes in there much less have sung in it. weird cheers Wiz |
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Post by bowie on Dec 28, 2016 15:59:58 GMT -6
Probably have but there's one little thing I'd like to add - How many people here have actually been in an anechoic chamber? If you have, then you're probably aware that a total absence of all sound produces a defionitely uneasy feeling in most, if not all people. we went into the studio that Massenburg used to be in... Is that the "wall of diffusion" room? (if it is, you'll know what I'm talking about) I have that as a background on my studio PC and people often ask me "is that real?". I've never had the privilege of being there myself. |
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Post by wiz on Dec 28, 2016 16:34:06 GMT -6
we went into the studio that Massenburg used to be in... Is that the "wall of diffusion" room? (if it is, you'll know what I'm talking about) I have that as a background on my studio PC and people often ask me "is that real?". I've never had the privilege of being there myself. thats the one 8) its a freaky place.. you feel like you could get shish ke bab'd if you trip and fall against the walls... 8) cheers Wiz |
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