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Post by johneppstein on Dec 21, 2016 1:51:34 GMT -6
Have you tried a sennheiser ae2300.... The marketting speil sounds ok. Marketing schpiels always sound OK. The question is what does the mic sound like? I think the perception that the KM 84 (which of course isn't a tube mic) is prohibitively expensive is incorrect unless you only look for them at the major vintage dealers. I see them semi-frequently in the $1000 range in the classifieds on internet forums. That's what I paid for mine - no box or clip, but the mic works great. Haven't touched my AKG 451s since getting it. I use it on snare on the side of the drum offset an inch or two from the vent hole - sounds great with a perfect balance of top and bottom, and in that position it's highly unlikely to get whacked. You just have top wait until somebody needs money and jump fast. Since getting mine about a year ago I've seen maybe 4 or 5 available in that general price range, would have got at least one more but I've been broke. |
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 21, 2016 1:59:53 GMT -6
damn that oktava adds up fast and disappointing spl limit. I didn't see an spl spec, however couldn't you simply use the screw-in pad? It says the body takes all the 012 capsules, one would assume that the pads would work as well. |
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Post by gouge on Dec 21, 2016 2:28:56 GMT -6
yeah I could use the pad. I use the oktavas on toms with the pads but am starting to use the ksm137 more on toms.
I've got at my disposal 2 jolly modified mk012 mics. while they are not km84's they sound very very close indeed. i'll give them a run on snare.
i am starting to think i need to do a snare mic shootout. i have a drum session coming up mid-late jan so will try and do a shootout prior to that. my current mic on snare is an sm57. i really like how it sounds there more than anywhere else but of late I've been wanting a little more.
the Mojave has me really interested. will start the squirrelling away for one.
it's interesting you mention the air holes. my music partner read the Sylvia Massey book and in that she mentions that technique so last week we had a conversation about trying it out. I've not done it before.
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Post by jjinvegas on Dec 21, 2016 4:25:05 GMT -6
I always leave the drums set up with microphones at the ready, pre-amps and routing all ready to go. And when I started doing that a long time Ago I discovered the real variable in snare sounds. Same kit, same mic, same everything except not the same hands. If someone hits them correctly, you can put about any microphone nearby and it will sound good. Unless we are talking someone who is very sensitive with brush technique, pretty uncommon, a snare drum is not that nuanced of a sound. When you read accounts of bygone sessions, remember, in those days there was no bargain pencil condenser. there were the German microphones and not much else in high-end studios of the period. So it wasn't like they were opting for a KM-84 or 451 over fifteen others. Just tape the SM-57 to a decent pencil, so that the capsules are aligned, you will get the best of both worlds, off-axia hat in the 57, and an upper midrange Shure cruack, with more detail in the rattle from the condenser, and then you can avoid mic'ing from the bottom and all the polarity issues. Get very familiar with the rattle, if you aren't already. An adjustment there is WAY bigger than any microphone or circuit...
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Post by EmRR on Dec 21, 2016 8:49:35 GMT -6
I'd wager neither of those recordings were made with the drums played very loud, and the mics not terribly close either.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 21, 2016 11:48:43 GMT -6
I always leave the drums set up with microphones at the ready, pre-amps and routing all ready to go. And when I started doing that a long time Ago I discovered the real variable in snare sounds. Same kit, same mic, same everything except not the same hands. If someone hits them correctly, you can put about any microphone nearby and it will sound good. Unless we are talking someone who is very sensitive with brush technique, pretty uncommon, a snare drum is not that nuanced of a sound. When you read accounts of bygone sessions, remember, in those days there was no bargain pencil condenser. there were the German microphones and not much else in high-end studios of the period. So it wasn't like they were opting for a KM-84 or 451 over fifteen others. Just tape the SM-57 to a decent pencil, so that the capsules are aligned, you will get the best of both worlds, off-axia hat in the 57, and an upper midrange Shure cruack, with more detail in the rattle from the condenser, and then you can avoid mic'ing from the bottom and all the polarity issues. Get very familiar with the rattle, if you aren't already. An adjustment there is WAY bigger than any microphone or circuit... I see no reason whatsoever to use an SM57. All it can do is make things sound worse, at least with the vintage wood shell Ludwig I have. I can't can't imagine it adding anything to a metal shell, either, but I haven't tried it because I don't have a metal snare that's worth using. And I certainly don't want the off-axis 57 sound on hat - that's something I try to avoid. |
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Post by jjinvegas on Dec 21, 2016 12:07:18 GMT -6
I always leave the drums set up with microphones at the ready, pre-amps and routing all ready to go. And when I started doing that a long time Ago I discovered the real variable in snare sounds. Same kit, same mic, same everything except not the same hands. If someone hits them correctly, you can put about any microphone nearby and it will sound good. Unless we are talking someone who is very sensitive with brush technique, pretty uncommon, a snare drum is not that nuanced of a sound. When you read accounts of bygone sessions, remember, in those days there was no bargain pencil condenser. there were the German microphones and not much else in high-end studios of the period. So it wasn't like they were opting for a KM-84 or 451 over fifteen others. Just tape the SM-57 to a decent pencil, so that the capsules are aligned, you will get the best of both worlds, off-axia hat in the 57, and an upper midrange Shure cruack, with more detail in the rattle from the condenser, and then you can avoid mic'ing from the bottom and all the polarity issues. Get very familiar with the rattle, if you aren't already. An adjustment there is WAY bigger than any microphone or circuit... I see no reason whatsoever to use an SM57. All it can do is make things sound worse, at least with the vintage wood shell Ludwig I have. I can't can't imagine it adding anything to a metal shell, either, but I haven't tried it because I don't have a metal snare that's worth using. And I certainly don't want the off-axis 57 sound on hat - that's something I try to avoid. Well, thousands and thousands of songs have been recorded with that very sound. Of course, our mothers asked us if all our friends jumped off a cliff would we do that also? At least mine did. I got the trick of strapping a pencil to it from Bob Clearmountain, mid-eighties, it works but I am sure it is not the only way to skin a cat. Nobody I knew liked the sound of a microphone on the hi-hat, and with most rock drummers we wish there was an anti-mic because their touch was not exactly light on what cymbal makers seemed to think needed to be louder and louder. But I am going to totally disagree on that off axis bit, the quarter-note wash hat has become part of every rock drummer's arsenal once they figured out that a quarter note ride cymbal didn't always fill the vacuum as well. And that sound is totally about a 57, it is not exactly pretty, it almost sounds like someone changed the bit rate down to about four, but the sound has it use...... |
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 21, 2016 12:35:34 GMT -6
I see no reason whatsoever to use an SM57. All it can do is make things sound worse, at least with the vintage wood shell Ludwig I have. I can't can't imagine it adding anything to a metal shell, either, but I haven't tried it because I don't have a metal snare that's worth using. And I certainly don't want the off-axis 57 sound on hat - that's something I try to avoid. Well, thousands and thousands of songs have been recorded with that very sound. Of course, our mothers asked us if all our friends jumped off a cliff would we do that also? At least mine did. I got the trick of strapping a pencil to it from Bob Clearmountain, mid-eighties, it works but I am sure it is not the only way to skin a cat. Nobody I knew liked the sound of a microphone on the hi-hat, and with most rock drummers we wish there was an anti-mic because their touch was not exactly light on what cymbal makers seemed to think needed to be louder and louder. But I am going to totally disagree on that off axis bit, the quarter-note wash hat has become part of every rock drummer's arsenal once they figured out that a quarter note ride cymbal didn't always fill the vacuum as well. And that sound is totally about a 57, it is not exactly pretty, it almost sounds like someone changed the bit rate down to about four, but the sound has it use...... Well, I used to use 57s on snare a fair amount, but I never could get I sound I really liked. I just got sounds I found acceptable relative to a lot of other people's sounds. Things got a bit better when I started using an SDC, but I still didn't care for what I was getting. The top sound was lacking in snare and somewhat cardboardy much of the time, the bottom sound was cartoonishly too snary, and the combination didn't sound right no matter how I set the polarity switches. And the double mic approach caused problems with the other mics. I'd heard about micing the side of the drum, but hadn't given it a whole lot of thought because it sounded like a weird idea and it wasn't "the way it's done", but the conventional approaches weren't doing it for me so I tried it and it was an epiphany. Suddenly it was easy to get it to sound like a snare drum. Top and bottom balance come from how far the mic is from the top and bottom edge. (d'oh!) My thinking about off-axis response was strongly affected by William Wittman*, who has a near allergic reaction to the ragged off axis response of the 57** and 421. I had been using a vintage 451, but when, influenced by William, I popped for the KM84 it all came into focus - the 84 has such perfectly even off axis response that suddenly the hi-hat leakage sounded like a hi-hat instead of a phasey mess. (Well, the 451 wasn't THAT bad but the 57 shure was. (pun intended.)) It's not a matter of the quarter note hat being there, it's a matter of what it sounds like when it is. * - Actually, William caused me to totally rethink my entire approach to studio drum micing. I still mostly go with a traditional close mic approach on live sound gigs, but that's just because of having to avoid leakage from really loud guitar amps and an unwillingness to use my good studio mics on a live stage. ** -You wouldn't believe how horribly ragged the response of the 57 is in the presence region in general - and off axis just goes to hell. And there's no real consistency between individual mics except in the most general way. |
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Post by jjinvegas on Dec 21, 2016 13:11:14 GMT -6
I basically use the same placement, about an inch and a half outside the rim, slightly angled down, the 57 aimed right at the rim. Pencil strapped above, which I often gate and use as the explosion part of the tone, and the 57 serves as thunk. I don't use 421s anymore, but I think a lot of that phase sound was more related to the typical approach of another 57 on the bottom with the polarity switch engaged, which you have to be very lucky to have those two mics a perfect 180 out. I always try to aim all the other mics at the primary target in a line toward the snare drum, serves to minimize off axis degradation to some degree of the all important two and four barking. I remember quite clearly the first record I heard that was just overboard on the wash hat, the second Black Crowes LP, or was it the third. i I found it extremely annoying. But tastes change, now a real pointy hat click makes my teeth hurt.
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Post by rowmat on Dec 21, 2016 16:19:12 GMT -6
Even using a single mic pointed at the shell can be an 'ear' opener for those who haven't done it. Find the right spot and you get the top crack, the shell body and the snares all together.
Generally shell micing provides a bigger, more coherent, solid sound than just micing the top.
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Post by gouge on Dec 21, 2016 16:21:16 GMT -6
i'm going to give it a go next time.
but you guys have to lay off the sm57. if I stop using it on snare i'll never use it. :-)
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Dec 21, 2016 19:03:37 GMT -6
i'm going to give it a go next time. but you guys have to lay off the sm57. if I stop using it on snare i'll never use it. :-) I have never considered the 57 a great mic, well it was great at putting money in my pocket as a gear pimp. the 57 has a particular sound that many are accustomed to, if that's the sound you want well you want a 57 and people seam to want that sound. |
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Post by EmRR on Dec 21, 2016 19:07:20 GMT -6
The snare is the only reason I haven't been able to toss my 57 in the trash. Itz juzt dat zound we know, for better or worse.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Dec 21, 2016 19:47:50 GMT -6
The snare is the only reason I haven't been able to toss my 57 in the trash. Itz juzt dat zound we know, for better or worse. Exactly! |
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