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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 3, 2013 19:15:13 GMT -6
I've often wondered if hardware works better than a plug...
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Post by popmann on Dec 3, 2013 22:24:15 GMT -6
No to using the hardware.
...but, let's make this the official "de-essing" thread...so I can officially ask you why you think vocals need deEssing. I'll tell you...bad mic choice and poor compression settings. I'm talking anything regular--I mean, there seems to be on occasion some syllable hit the diaphragm wrong, but that simply to grab with an offline edit. But, if it's regular enough to even buy a plug in, let alone hardware, there's something else wrong.
You understand that the compressor settings (or model for those without attack settings) are likely to blame along with bad vocal mic choice. If someone sets a compressor on the WAY IN...and then the same person who isn't "getting" it's negative effect sets a plug in at mix time...add a Slate SSL model (which is HORRIBLE in the vocal sibilance range) because you like mix engineer Joe who mixes on an SSL...you end up needing a deEsser--and it sucks the life from everything it touches.
I actually had a client send me a track he had TRACKED with a deEsser....Jeezus H...WTF, man...I had to drive the hell out of that Slate channel to get rid of his THilibanTH THolution...he also sent tacks where he "compressed a little on the way in"--sibilant. Same voice. Same mic/room/preamp everything....no (on the way in) compression=no sibilance. I had to do surgery on those. The ones where he just put the sm7 up and sang into it? Compressor+Pultec=done. Few fader rides here or there. Sometimes the compressor was even a PLUG IN!! Sometimes not.
Point is--I've never used a deEsser that was worth it. If it's bad, you manually fix it. But, you record your own stuff, right? You're not mixing lots of vocals tracked by other people do you? How's about we figure out what you're doing wrong with your set up...plug the mic into a clean preamp. You have a clean preamp, right? No Neve or API...clean. Do you hear it? Now start adding things back. See where it becomes an issue. A DeEsser is a fix it tool...a band aid for a bigger issue--not part of "normal vocal processing", IME.
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Post by littlesicily on Dec 3, 2013 23:45:08 GMT -6
I had one and it's good. Not really any better than plugs though.
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Post by henge on Dec 4, 2013 7:48:45 GMT -6
No to using the hardware. ...but, let's make this the official "de-essing" thread...so I can officially ask you why you think vocals need deEssing. I'll tell you...bad mic choice and poor compression settings. I'm talking anything regular--I mean, there seems to be on occasion some syllable hit the diaphragm wrong, but that simply to grab with an offline edit. But, if it's regular enough to even buy a plug in, let alone hardware, there's something else wrong. You understand that the compressor settings (or model for those without attack settings) are likely to blame along with bad vocal mic choice. If someone sets a compressor on the WAY IN...and then the same person who isn't "getting" it's negative effect sets a plug in at mix time...add a Slate SSL model (which is HORRIBLE in the vocal sibilance range) because you like mix engineer Joe who mixes on an SSL...you end up needing a deEsser--and it sucks the life from everything it touches. I actually had a client send me a track he had TRACKED with a deEsser....Jeezus H...WTF, man...I had to drive the hell out of that Slate channel to get rid of his THilibanTH THolution...he also sent tacks where he "compressed a little on the way in"--sibilant. Same voice. Same mic/room/preamp everything....no (on the way in) compression=no sibilance. I had to do surgery on those. The ones where he just put the sm7 up and sang into it? Compressor+Pultec=done. Few fader rides here or there. Sometimes the compressor was even a PLUG IN!! Sometimes not. Point is--I've never used a deEsser that was worth it. If it's bad, you manually fix it. But, you record your own stuff, right? You're not mixing lots of vocals tracked by other people do you? How's about we figure out what you're doing wrong with your set up...plug the mic into a clean preamp. You have a clean preamp, right? No Neve or API...clean. Do you hear it? Now start adding things back. See where it becomes an issue. A DeEsser is a fix it tool...a band aid for a bigger issue--not part of "normal vocal processing", IME. Gotta agree with this. I get some of poorly tracked vocals that need de essing and bad mic technique and poor use of compression seem to be the culprits. Slicing and dicing is the only thing that works for me. Never tried the fabfilter de esser though, supposed to be real easy but it $200 or something!! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 4, 2013 10:23:12 GMT -6
No to using the hardware. ...but, let's make this the official "de-essing" thread...so I can officially ask you why you think vocals need deEssing. I'll tell you...bad mic choice and poor compression settings. I'm talking anything regular--I mean, there seems to be on occasion some syllable hit the diaphragm wrong, but that simply to grab with an offline edit. But, if it's regular enough to even buy a plug in, let alone hardware, there's something else wrong. You understand that the compressor settings (or model for those without attack settings) are likely to blame along with bad vocal mic choice. If someone sets a compressor on the WAY IN...and then the same person who isn't "getting" it's negative effect sets a plug in at mix time...add a Slate SSL model (which is HORRIBLE in the vocal sibilance range) because you like mix engineer Joe who mixes on an SSL...you end up needing a deEsser--and it sucks the life from everything it touches. I actually had a client send me a track he had TRACKED with a deEsser....Jeezus H...WTF, man...I had to drive the hell out of that Slate channel to get rid of his THilibanTH THolution...he also sent tacks where he "compressed a little on the way in"--sibilant. Same voice. Same mic/room/preamp everything....no (on the way in) compression=no sibilance. I had to do surgery on those. The ones where he just put the sm7 up and sang into it? Compressor+Pultec=done. Few fader rides here or there. Sometimes the compressor was even a PLUG IN!! Sometimes not. Point is--I've never used a deEsser that was worth it. If it's bad, you manually fix it. But, you record your own stuff, right? You're not mixing lots of vocals tracked by other people do you? How's about we figure out what you're doing wrong with your set up...plug the mic into a clean preamp. You have a clean preamp, right? No Neve or API...clean. Do you hear it? Now start adding things back. See where it becomes an issue. A DeEsser is a fix it tool...a band aid for a bigger issue--not part of "normal vocal processing", IME. I feel like I should be spanked for my bad behavior. |
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Post by popmann on Dec 4, 2013 10:44:20 GMT -6
Not at all, mang...just trying to help. What I do. Give it a try. If you're having ongoing issues, drop me a line...send me a file...like "here it is with the compressor-squished like I want, but sibilant....here it is without". Unfortunately there's no "right way" to set the compressor, else, I'd just post THAT for you...sometimes you need to speed up the attack...sometimes you need to slow it down and back the ratio and threshold down for more of a leveling effect.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 4, 2013 14:21:21 GMT -6
I have a feeling it's more the mic than anything...Not that it's a bad mic at all - I love the thing...but there's only so much you can do with and to a $1100 microphone - and Shannon has knocked it out of the park if you ask me. Also, I assume it could be the room too. The mic didn't seem as sibilant at Sal's place as it does mine. Is there any way to protect against HF in a room? Anything I can do? Of course, I've got the Auralex stuff all over the room and that cuts out the flutter echoes, but around my singing area, I pretty much just have absorption - 6 inch bass traps in corners, clouds of 703 and 2 inch mineral wool baffles on side walls and angled walls...
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Post by popmann on Dec 4, 2013 17:01:29 GMT -6
So, it's sibilant with a clean preamp and no compression? do you have a preamp with variable impendence? If so, try changing it.
Certainly if the SSs are odd or phasey, that could be a room thing...keep in mind sibilance in voices is rarely what I'd call "hig frequency"...though I've certainly heard some Chinese LDCs that managed to somehow extend it up...males typically at 4-7khz...women shifting up a bit...but, the big airy thing people want isn't in opposition...vocal air being mostly above 10k. That's why the high shelf deEsser don't work well--they tend to START the shelf where the issue is. It's not an issue of having too much high frequencies...it's about a sheer consonant to vowel volume.
Sal use the same preamp? Same compressor? Being a consonant volume problem...you certainly can see how the attack of a compressor can make the problem worse, right? To slow attack and the leading consonant is made louder....to quick a release and the middle TTs become a problem since the singer will be trailing off the vowel volume so it let's go really quickly and the end consonant gets made crazy louder.
Re:room...you could try moving her in the room...as well as employing Fig8 with the backside pointed towards a corner or huge open area--just not with the back parallel to a wall.
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Post by jazznoise on Dec 4, 2013 18:10:36 GMT -6
Mic position in relation to the singer is important in terms of sibilence. If the singer is overtly sibilant, get them to sing straight and raise the mic and angle it down at their mouth.
That said, some people sing softly and pronounce very hard S and Th sounds regardless. Not much you can do but try a de-esser, but often you're going to end up having to edit it manually to get it right.
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