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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 8, 2016 13:26:26 GMT -6
I was going to be offended but then there a knock at the door and it was Bryce with brown bag full of the $1,000's of usd I have paid for Warm Audio gear ( tonebeasts, wa76, eqp-wa, la-2a) over the last few years: guess I will buy that symphony mkii now: NOT!! and you know its so great when you have paid your hard earned dough for gear but then you have to sell it to pay for trivial things like furnaces, hot water heaters and your daughter's synchro; ya I'm sure livin the high (disingenuous) life again: cue Steve Winwood will ya ?
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 8, 2016 13:46:02 GMT -6
Anybody who judges the frequency response of a microphone by the generic chart graph printed in spec sheets or sales literature is, well, I almost said a fool but I'll tone that down a bit and say highly naive. The only thing you can really trust is an individual pen plot serial numbered to the microphone (EDIT: from a reputable manufacturer or independent testing facility.) Anything you see in printed literature is nothing more than an "artist's rendition" which at best is derived by averaging a quantity of real plots but more likely is just drawn after a theoretical engineering spec. Individual pen plots used to be common from the better European manufacturers, but have become much more scarce in recent years. When I worked for FM Products audio shop (Bill Graham) we sent out many microphones provided to us for testing (by manufacturers and distributor reps) to have pen plots done by an independent tester (it might have been Ultrasound in Marin but I'm not certain) and the results that came back were eye opening.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 8, 2016 13:54:24 GMT -6
Also when you measure a mic your measuring the room, and your looking at a single angle . Erm, no, not if the meaurement is done correctly - the standard for measuring mics is mounted on a terminated tube of specifically designed paramenters. I believe there is a standard (AES?) spec for measurement. Or used to be, anyway. Polar response is measured in an anechoic chamber.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 8, 2016 13:58:53 GMT -6
If that Warm graph is the one they published when they announced the mic, Bryce mentioned that it's not a perfect reading. They didn't have a proper anechoic chamber and just used some gear they could get their hands on to see some ballpark readings. Maybe, but why release a chart if it is noticibly different? Why not find somewhere that can do it properly? Because all the published charts are more or less bullshytte and because there are very, very few facilities with the ability to do the testing correctly. And time at those facilities tends to be rather expensive, when they're available at all.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 8, 2016 14:02:33 GMT -6
Erm, that's not a "real" 67 (U67), it's a TLM (transformerless).
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 8, 2016 15:32:10 GMT -6
tell that to neumann peeps buy it to drop in the max mod.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 8, 2016 16:02:13 GMT -6
tell that to neumann peeps buy it to drop in the max mod. Sennheiser doesn't much care what anyone says anymore... When they still had AES shows in SF every time I'd corner the Sennheiser rep and ask him why they didn't reintroduce the MD409. Every year I'd get a different BS excuse. At the last show the rep told me (after trying to claim insufficient demand, which is a crock an d a half) he finally told me that it wouldn't be "cost effective" because they'd have to charge so much that nobody would buy it. Really? For a moving coil dynamic? For a capsule they used to OEM to manufacturers of mid-priced home tape recorders? (Grundig et al.) Pull the other one, it has got bells on!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 8, 2016 17:35:30 GMT -6
Anybody who judges the frequency response of a microphone by the generic chart graph printed in spec sheets or sales literature is, well, I almost said a fool but I'll tone that down a bit and say highly naive. The only thing you can really trust is an individual pen plot serial numbered to the microphone (EDIT: from a reputable manufacturer or independent testing facility.) Anything you see in printed literature is nothing more than an "artist's rendition" which at best is derived by averaging a quantity of real plots but more likely is just drawn after a theoretical engineering spec. Individual pen plots used to be common from the better European manufacturers, but have become much more scarce in recent years. When I worked for FM Products audio shop (Bill Graham) we sent out many microphones provided to us for testing (by manufacturers and distributor reps) to have pen plots done by an independent tester (it might have been Ultrasound in Marin but I'm not certain) and the results that came back were eye opening. Good post John. I'm curious, was there any one company whose charts were consistently close to the ones they published?
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 9, 2016 3:11:32 GMT -6
Anybody who judges the frequency response of a microphone by the generic chart graph printed in spec sheets or sales literature is, well, I almost said a fool but I'll tone that down a bit and say highly naive. The only thing you can really trust is an individual pen plot serial numbered to the microphone (EDIT: from a reputable manufacturer or independent testing facility.) Anything you see in printed literature is nothing more than an "artist's rendition" which at best is derived by averaging a quantity of real plots but more likely is just drawn after a theoretical engineering spec. Individual pen plots used to be common from the better European manufacturers, but have become much more scarce in recent years. When I worked for FM Products audio shop (Bill Graham) we sent out many microphones provided to us for testing (by manufacturers and distributor reps) to have pen plots done by an independent tester (it might have been Ultrasound in Marin but I'm not certain) and the results that came back were eye opening. Good post John. I'm curious, was there any one company whose charts were consistently close to the ones they published? Well, we were a sound reinforcement company so the mics we had tested were slanted in that direction, but Beyer Dynamic was consistently good. (However I don't think they do individual pen plots anymore.) We liked Beyer so much we became a dealer, primariliy to satisfy our own needs. (At the time Beyer guaranteed that any two new mics of the same model chosen at random could be used as a matched pair. Now THAT'S tight quality control!) I also seem to recall some AKG condensers that came with good plots. (441, 451.) One thing that has always stuck with me was that the Shure SM series mics tested all over the map and only vaguely resembled the published plots, which were very obviously heavily averaged or rounded. The 57 and 58s have a LOT of raggedness in the presence region and no two mics are the same. This reduces the available gain before feedback in a stage monitor system. FM used the Beyer M69 (and in some cases M88) as our standard stage vocal mic instead of the SM58 - the only time we used 58s was when extreme ruggedness was required, as the (pre TG) Beyers were a bit fragile if dropped squarely on their face. We also had a number of M500s, a few 160s, 260s, etc. We used a lot of M201s - basically any place you'd use a 57, especially on drums. I don't recall any Neumanns being either used or tested - they might not have been deemed cost effective for live use. I also don't recall there being many Sennheisers around, although the 409 was quite popular with a lot of other Bay Area users. We may have had a few of them, not certain. I remember we definitely had some 441s and probably some 421s due to the demand for them as drum mics. The 441s tested well, don't remember about the 421s. We definitely had RE-20s and I'm pretty sure they tested out well. The time frame on this was approximately 1978.
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Post by nick8801 on Dec 9, 2016 6:29:00 GMT -6
That's pretty cool about Beyerdynamic. They are one of my if not my favorite microphone company.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 9, 2016 10:05:13 GMT -6
I've got Beyerdynamic and Sennheiser mics all over my drum kit currently...makes me feel pretty fancy, and they sound great! M88TG on kick, e604 on toms and snare.
I just got a batch of a half dozen guitar-store Chinese SDC mics and the capsules are all over the place. Some of the worst matching I have witnessed. This is maybe the worst thing about them. Although they were not marketed or sold as matched in any way. Just something to be aware of if you ever get the urge to mess with these cheap mics.
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Post by Vincent R. on Dec 17, 2016 21:11:07 GMT -6
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Post by popmann on Dec 17, 2016 21:57:03 GMT -6
the thing that makes mic plots nearly useless has little to do with companies testing wrong or publishing incorrect plots--it's the nature of the plot being COMPLETELY different than the use case of a mic. That plot is the response to some static electronic generator at a SINGLE SPL level. Whether you're strumming a guitar, hitting a drum or singing--it couldn't BE more divorced from a single SPL level. And not including some kind of THD numbers on a frequency basis--you would need a different kind of plot. Those were scrawled by elderly analog test kit long ago--intended to help match two of the SAME mic design....their modern internet use by people to pick between designs....is a horrible idea.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 18, 2016 6:18:12 GMT -6
That's what I felt too and so for my money now I get a very good new mike (pair) to compliment my other tube mikes. As I use an apollo with 4 ic pres, I have ordered the 412 pre too so I have 6 OB pres ( 2 d4s) and will have the 4 api clones for drums, They all have di's too nice for mixdown and bass etc. I''ll admit to jonseing for the new stam 73 2 channel pre
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 18, 2016 7:15:06 GMT -6
That's what I felt too and so for my money now I get a very good new mike (pair) to compliment my other tube mikes. As I use an apollo with 4 ic pres, I have ordered the 412 pre too so I have 6 OB pres ( 2 d4s) and will have the 4 api clones for drums, They all have di's too nice for mixdown and bass etc. I''ll admit to jonseing for the new stam 73 2 channel pre I'm jonesing for that 412.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 18, 2016 7:24:00 GMT -6
ya that 412 looks nicely tweaked of course its a clone but, as usual, with Warm with really good transformers and a couple of nice tweaks to make them even more usable. I am kind of going more and more anti plug and just want real OB gear, but good gear I can afford, there's the rub.
I have a drummer booked to track drums for my new tune, can't wait but I'll probably post a little shoot out 4 mikes ( my diy c12, mk-u47, the WA87 and an octava sdc) centred over the kit, all going through the 412 nothing else.
I am curious where the wa87 will sit sonically, expect it to be a nice sweet spot in the middle of those mikes but with its own sound, tighter than the 12/47 more tone than the octava.
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Post by illacov on Dec 18, 2016 8:03:05 GMT -6
ya that 412 looks nicely tweaked of course its a clone but, as usual, with Warm with really good transformers and a couple of nice tweaks to make them even more usable. I am kind of going more and more anti plug and just want real OB gear, but good gear I can afford, there's the rub. I have a drummer booked to track drums for my new tune, can't wait but I'll probably post a little shoot out 4 mikes ( my diy c12, mk-u47, the WA87 and an octava sdc) centred over the kit, all going through the 412 nothing else. I am curious where the wa87 will sit sonically, expect it to be a nice sweet spot in the middle of those mikes but with its own sound, tighter than the 12/47 more tone than the octava. Warm is using Altran transformers in their new 412 mic preamp. They made a great choice. Altran supplies numerous high end companies with iron including Chandler, Great River, UA (some devices). The stuff they do for CAPI, Hairball is just plain gorgeous. I know another company thats enjoying their expertise as well. Thanks -L.
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Post by swurveman on Dec 18, 2016 9:48:38 GMT -6
Unless I missed something, the WA87 only has a female singer and the Neumann U87 and U87ai only a male and they're singing different vocal melodies. It would be interesting to hear the same voice singing the same melody on those mics.
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Post by ragan on Dec 18, 2016 10:35:41 GMT -6
ya that 412 looks nicely tweaked of course its a clone but, as usual, with Warm with really good transformers and a couple of nice tweaks to make them even more usable. I am kind of going more and more anti plug and just want real OB gear, but good gear I can afford, there's the rub. I have a drummer booked to track drums for my new tune, can't wait but I'll probably post a little shoot out 4 mikes ( my diy c12, mk-u47, the WA87 and an octava sdc) centred over the kit, all going through the 412 nothing else. I am curious where the wa87 will sit sonically, expect it to be a nice sweet spot in the middle of those mikes but with its own sound, tighter than the 12/47 more tone than the octava. Warm is using Altran transformers in their new 412 mic preamp. They made a great choice. Altran supplies numerous high end companies with iron including Chandler, Great River, UA (some devices). The stuff they do for CAPI, Hairball is just plain gorgeous. I know another company thats enjoying their expertise as well. Thanks -L. I knew it
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Post by Vincent R. on Dec 18, 2016 12:11:43 GMT -6
Unless I missed something, the WA87 only has a female singer and the Neumann U87 and U87ai only a male and they're singing different vocal melodies. It would be interesting to hear the same voice singing the same melody on those mics. Go to the WA87. In that folder are clips of both the U87 original and the WA87 performed at the same time.
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Post by illacov on Dec 18, 2016 13:08:15 GMT -6
Warm is using Altran transformers in their new 412 mic preamp. They made a great choice. Altran supplies numerous high end companies with iron including Chandler, Great River, UA (some devices). The stuff they do for CAPI, Hairball is just plain gorgeous. I know another company thats enjoying their expertise as well. Thanks -L. I knew it Me too! Thanks -L.
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Post by roundbadge on Dec 20, 2016 0:31:40 GMT -6
those first samples sound weird.something hard in the upper mids made me dislike his voice.
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 20, 2016 5:58:37 GMT -6
I've got Beyerdynamic and Sennheiser mics all over my drum kit currently...makes me feel pretty fancy, and they sound great! M88TG on kick, e604 on toms and snare. I just got a batch of a half dozen guitar-store Chinese SDC mics and the capsules are all over the place. Some of the worst matching I have witnessed. This is maybe the worst thing about them. Although they were not marketed or sold as matched in any way. Just something to be aware of if you ever get the urge to mess with these cheap mics. Another +1 for Beyer. You can take that M88 out of the kick and stick it in front of a rock singer and cut a world class vocal .... then put in on some conga's, a bass cab, percussion and even an ac. guitar. I have an older M88 and I've cut vocals on it beating out my Wunder CM7/Blue bottle on many occasions. It's probably my desert island mic.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 20, 2016 6:23:59 GMT -6
I have 2 wa 87s and the wa- 412 on the way and will be tracking drums with them both, will probably do a simple shoot out with my diy mk-u47, c-12 and an octava mod sdc, all in cardioid, if I do will make a simple video and post it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 20, 2016 9:47:06 GMT -6
That would be great to hear kcat!
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