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Post by Pueblo Audio on Nov 11, 2016 22:56:55 GMT -6
I will try to elaborate. Again, to better understand this topic, one should be thinking in terms of watts, not volts or current. Watts is the measure of power: the transfer of electrical energy per unit time. Next understand that energy is not transferred in a continuous, even way. For example, consider that the lights in most rooms are not actually ON constantly. They are actually completely OFF 120 times every second.
Take a hypothetical 100W power amp. It's power supply will only draw energy when it's reservoir caps have drained below the transformer's rectified voltage. This means that it only draws energy for like 3% of the time. All the energy must be drawn within this brief window during which the entire equivelant of the 100W must be resupplied. That's amounts to a tremendous spike, possibly rising to 1200W in a quick blast! This is why power filters and UPS can have a negative effect on some loads. They typically cannot satisfactorily meet instantaneous power demand.
I think you have a misconception about how breakers "limit" current. A Breaker is an industrial grade element. While the current is below its fault setting it will pass instantaneous power essentially uninhibited. Typically 20A. the Once the current exceeds its rating it opens, "breaking" the circuit to prevent shock or fire.
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Post by Quint on Nov 12, 2016 8:26:55 GMT -6
I will try to elaborate. Again, to better understand this topic, one should be thinking in terms of watts, not volts or current. Watts is the measure of power: the transfer of electrical energy per unit time. Next understand that energy is not transferred in a continuous, even way. For example, consider that the lights in most rooms are not actually ON constantly. They are actually completely OFF 120 times every second. Take a hypothetical 100W power amp. It's power supply will only draw energy when it's reservoir caps have drained below the transformer's rectified voltage. This means that it only draws energy for like 3% of the time. All the energy must be drawn within this brief window during which the entire equivelant of the 100W must be resupplied. That's amounts to a tremendous spike, possibly rising to 1200W in a quick blast! This is why power filters and UPS can have a negative effect on some loads. They typically cannot satisfactorily meet instantaneous power demand. I think you have a misconception about how breakers "limit" current. A Breaker is an industrial grade element. While the current is below its fault setting it will pass instantaneous power essentially uninhibited. Typically 20A. the Once the current exceeds its rating it opens, "breaking" the circuit to prevent shock or fire. I don't at all have a misconception about how breakers work but, as far as I've been aware, UPS's similarly will pass "instantaneous power essentially uninhibited". You disagree and say that UPS's can limit the instantaneous power available. Ok. If I'm to believe that, then what I was asking for is an explanation of WHY a UPS might do such a thing. What about the design of an online UPS would impede instantaneous flow as you describe? Speaking of instantaneous power demand in a power amp. That's what the capacitors are for, no? To supply a reserve of power for the peaks and then fill back up in between. If the power supply in a power amp or any piece of gear has sufficiently large caps, doesn't that render all of this moot anyway?
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Post by Pueblo Audio on Nov 12, 2016 9:13:55 GMT -6
This subject is probably too deep and technical for me to explain in a forum posting. It really takes a couple of text books and study time. I have degrees in Nuclear Power and electronic engineering, as well as music. I have professionally worked in all three fields. I say this so you know I am not guessing about this. I will give it a final go here. quote author=" Quint" source="/post/109691/thread" timestamp="1478960815"][quote timestamp="1478926615" source="/I don't at all have a misconception about how breakers work but, as far as I've been aware, UPS's similarly will pass instantaneous power essentially uninhibited. You disagree and say that UPS's can limit the instantaneous power available. A UPS supplies AC load via its inverter output circuit. Any given inverter will naturally have a max power design limit. A limit where it cannot physically keep up with power demand. Usuallly inverters are rated for average load, say 100w. But it's the peak instantaneous power that is important for audio loads. As with my previous example, we need 1200W peak very quickly. The inverters/UPS that I have been aquanted with don't keep up when demand gets that high while your breaker and outlets will keep up easily. In addition, I have participated in several controlled listening tests. Not one of the bonanfide mixers, producers or mastering engineers preferred The UPS. I am sure there probably exists a UPS of sufficient ability to perform essentially as a breaker. I am just not aquanted with them. At least not with any that a studio or home recordist:is likely to afford or install in their apartment. If you know of a specific, super performing UPS, please do share. I would be interested in that. quote author=" Quint" source="/post/109691/thread" timestamp="1478960815"]Speaking of instantaneous power demand in a power amp. That's what the capacitors are for, no? To supply a reserve of power for the peaks and then fill back up in between. If the power supply in a power amp or any piece of gear has sufficiently large caps, doesn't that render all of this moot anyway?[/quote] No. To be clear, I am talking about AC power into the amp, not audio output power to the speakers. Typically, the larger the reservoir caps,-> the smaller the conduction angle -> the greater the instantaneous power spike to fill the reservoir caps back up each cycle. Anyway, that's about as much as I want to say on that. . If you have further interest all this can be found in engineering text books.
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Post by mulmany on Nov 12, 2016 9:50:22 GMT -6
The instant power requirements to fill the caps back up is where the problem lies. What is the wattage available in the ups? If you look and the example above, the 100 watt amp needs 1200 watts to fill the caps. Can the ups supply this plus the other requirements of gear plugged into it?
Most ups are designed for pretty static power requirements, providing enough time to let the equipment be shut down or ride out a short outage. Computers/servers may have high power requirements but they are pretty static while running.
I know from first hand experience that online ups on instant power hungry equipment will kill them even when they are sized correctly.
The other issue with cascading filtering is increased ground resistance. The equipment ground can no longer be the best path to ground.
Power inversion can cause more noise in the line then the ac had in the first place. Svart mentioned this in an other thread.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,952
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Post by ericn on Nov 12, 2016 10:23:39 GMT -6
A more simplistic way of looking at this, if breakers were quick enough we wouldn't need surge suppressors! Any True sine wave Regeneration UPS system is a going to involve many pieces and those pieces are going to be rated pretty close to the systems rating so they are not going to be able to deliver those Quick demands! also the UPS system isn't able to look ahead and see those quick demands it's a dumb box !
I'm not going to say an investment in say a Tripplet or Permapower system isn't a good Idea, Most power products marketed specifically for audio have solve specific problems that an electrician on site is better equipped to diagnose and solve than a guy over the phone. Spending less money with a good electrician on site is probably going to go a lot further as well.
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Post by topshelfmg on Nov 14, 2016 1:16:09 GMT -6
This subject is probably too deep and technical for me to explain in a forum posting. It really takes a couple of text books and study time. I have degrees in Nuclear Power and electronic engineering, as well as music. I have professionally worked in all three fields. I say this so you know I am not guessing about this. I will give it a final go here. quote author=" Quint " source="/post/109691/thread" timestamp="1478960815"][quote timestamp="1478926615" source="/I don't at all have a misconception about how breakers work but, as far as I've been aware, UPS's similarly will pass instantaneous power essentially uninhibited. You disagree and say that UPS's can limit the instantaneous power available. A UPS supplies AC load via its inverter output circuit. Any given inverter will naturally have a max power design limit. A limit where it cannot physically keep up with power demand. Usuallly inverters are rated for average load, say 100w. But it's the peak instantaneous power that is important for audio loads. As with my previous example, we need 1200W peak very quickly. The inverters/UPS that I have been aquanted with don't keep up when demand gets that high while your breaker and outlets will keep up easily. In addition, I have participated in several controlled listening tests. Not one of the bonanfide mixers, producers or mastering engineers preferred The UPS. I am sure there probably exists a UPS of sufficient ability to perform essentially as a breaker. I am just not aquanted with them. At least not with any that a studio or home recordist:is likely to afford or install in their apartment. If you know of a specific, super performing UPS, please do share. I would be interested in that. quote author=" Quint " source="/post/109691/thread" timestamp="1478960815"]Speaking of instantaneous power demand in a power amp. That's what the capacitors are for, no? To supply a reserve of power for the peaks and then fill back up in between. If the power supply in a power amp or any piece of gear has sufficiently large caps, doesn't that render all of this moot anyway? No. To be clear, I am talking about AC power into the amp, not audio output power to the speakers. Typically, the larger the reservoir caps,-> the smaller the conduction angle -> the greater the instantaneous power spike to fill the reservoir caps back up each cycle. Anyway, that's about as much as I want to say on that. . If you have further interest all this can be found in engineering text books. [/quote] Ah ok, I figured the UPS would simply be passing the power from the mains, not trying to run from a battery or the power itself is producing. I was starting to think / hope the UPS wouldn't act as, well, a UPS unless it really had to during a power outage. It would have been nice to essentially have safe extra outlets with a worst case, transient destroying, scenario back up.
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Post by topshelfmg on Nov 14, 2016 1:17:40 GMT -6
A more simplistic way of looking at this, if breakers were quick enough we wouldn't need surge suppressors! Any True sine wave Regeneration UPS system is a going to involve many pieces and those pieces are going to be rated pretty close to the systems rating so they are not going to be able to deliver those Quick demands! also the UPS system isn't able to look ahead and see those quick demands it's a dumb box ! I'm not going to say an investment in say a Tripplet or Permapower system isn't a good Idea, Most power products marketed specifically for audio have solve specific problems that an electrician on site is better equipped to diagnose and solve than a guy over the phone. Spending less money with a good electrician on site is probably going to go a lot further as well. Gotcha, scratch that idea then. Just posted above but I hoped it would be simply passing the power from the mains in a safer way than going into a power strip / surge protector, until an outage occurred, solving the lack of outlets problem.
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Post by topshelfmg on Nov 14, 2016 1:20:13 GMT -6
So...... do I just get a long extension cord and plug my next power conditioner into the next room?
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Post by westom on Nov 14, 2016 7:52:16 GMT -6
Start by first learning what is a problem. For example, incandescent bulbs can dim to 50% intensity. Even a voltage that low is good power for electronics. How dim or bright are your bulbs getting? Learn what happens to clean or dirty electricity. That incoming 120 volt power is converted to well over 300 volt radio frequency spikes. Then that 'dirtiest' power is converted to rock stable, low DC voltages to safely power electronics. Does not matter how 'clean' or 'dirty' that incoming power is. Since best power conditioner is already inside electronics. This robust and existing protection is why a UPS can be used. For example, the output from this 120 volt sine wave UPS is 200 volt square waves with spikes of up to 270 volts. Even this is perfectly good power for electronics; but can be problematic to motorized appliances. And yes, most UPSes connect the appliance directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. Since that is when AC power is 'cleanest'. Even 1930 wires are more than sufficient. Otherwise those wires must be fixed / replaced due to something of far more concern - human safety. Best is to learn of problems rather than entertain wild speculation and fears promoted by hearsay and wild speculation. As so many others noted and described here by numbers - power conditioners are bogus. First define a problem before trying to cure it. Best is a power strip to connect multiple devices to one outlet. That strip must have a 15 amp circuit breaker and best has no protector parts. As for protection from transients, that is best done by something completely different also (unfortunately) called a surge protector.
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