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Post by bricejchandler on Oct 11, 2016 4:09:52 GMT -6
Hey everybody,
I'm looking to get a new ribbon mic for tracking guitar amps. Recently I've been trying to record bands as Live as possible, no headphones, all amps in the same room as the drum room, I've been getting some pretty cool results this way, very natural and raw.
However I'm not 100 percent satisfied with the guitar tones I'm getting, particularly for heavier stuff.
My usual guitar overdub set up is an SM57 and a U87 on the grill, and an AEA R44 at least a foot back, and I'm very happy with this set up.
But for the live stuff, I like to have a simpler set up and stick to one mic per amp. The aea can sound great in this application but often times I'd like to move in closer to the source, to help with bleed, but can't because of its huge proximity effect ( and it's often used as My mono overhead anyway so...). For now the U87 all by itself gets me the closest to what I'm looking for.
I've seen quite a few people use the AEA N22 right up on the grill and without a second mic, so it seems like this could work for me. Are any of you guys using it like this and have you compared it the R92? ( I've worked with the R92, but I've never heard the N22).
thanks!
Brice
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Post by rowmat on Oct 11, 2016 4:28:44 GMT -6
I don't have a R92 but we do have a pair of N22's.
They are purposely designed to have reduced proximity effect and be used close to the source.
Move them back even a few inches and the low end drops off quite a bit.
For most ribbon duties we prefer our R84 but of course it has much more proximity effect than the N22.
Obviously close micing a ribbon will help reduce the percentage of bleed picked up by the rear lobe but I would check that the spill still wasn't too much to deal with.
I remember a painful experience I had trying to reduce the snare bleed in a pedal steel track (post recording) after micing up the pedal steel's amp with a ribbon in a small room. Although I set the ribbon to the null the drums the room reflections still caused problems and in hindsight I should have just gone with a close mic'ed SM57.
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Post by bricejchandler on Oct 11, 2016 5:19:14 GMT -6
I don't have a R92 but we do have a pair of N22's. They are purposely designed to have reduced proximity effect and be used close to the source. Move them back even a few inches and the low end drops off quite a bit. For most ribbon duties we prefer our R84 but of course it has much more proximity effect than the N22. Obviously close micing a ribbon will help reduce the percentage of bleed picked up by the rear lobe but I would check that the spill still wasn't too much to deal with. I remember a painful experience I had trying to reduce the snare bleed in a pedal steel track (post recording) after micing up the pedal steel's amp with a ribbon in a small room. Although I set the ribbon to the null the drums the room reflections still caused problems and in hindsight I should have just gone with a close mic'ed SM57. Thanks for the great reply, very informative. I know what you mean about the bleed, even though I've really tried to embrace it lately and work with it, the figure 8 could cause occasional problems. I guess I could always set up an sm57 just in case , or even Take a DI of the guitar and reamp later to get a more controlled sound even though that just doesn't quite seem as fun! But anyway from what you're saying it might be interesting to try the N22 to see how it fits my workflow. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 11, 2016 5:22:00 GMT -6
I don't have a R92 but we do have a pair of N22's. They are purposely designed to have reduced proximity effect and be used close to the source. Move them back even a few inches and the low end drops off quite a bit. For most ribbon duties we prefer our R84 but of course it has much more proximity effect than the N22. Obviously close micing a ribbon will help reduce the percentage of bleed picked up by the rear lobe but I would check that the spill still wasn't too much to deal with. I remember a painful experience I had trying to reduce the snare bleed in a pedal steel track (post recording) after micing up the pedal steel's amp with a ribbon in a small room. Although I set the ribbon to the null the drums the room reflections still caused problems and in hindsight I should have just gone with a close mic'ed SM57. Thanks for the great reply, very informative. I know what you mean about the bleed, even though I've really tried to embrace it lately and work with it, the figure 8 could cause occasional problems. I guess I could always set up an sm57 just in case , or even Take a DI of the guitar and reamp later to get a more controlled sound even though that just doesn't quite seem as fun! But anyway from what you're saying it might be interesting to try the N22 to see how it fits my workflow. If it were me, I would always have that 57 set up. It can't take more than 5 minutes to set it up and get it in phase with whatever other mic you're using. Unless there is a shortage of channels, it's great to have as a blend mic or safety blanket. |
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Post by Ward on Oct 11, 2016 5:43:38 GMT -6
Based on your techniques for recording, I would say you're shopping in the wrong store. Finding null points for ribbons on guitar amps is a FUN TIME! Especially when you're trying to reject the other guitar amp(s), bass amp, drums, cymbals, room tones, guide vocals and possibly keys and/or horns? Good luck.
In those situations, I stick to good old dynamics. 57s and 421s The best ribbon for isolation, if you dare call it that, is the Royer 121.
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Post by joseph on Oct 11, 2016 7:01:19 GMT -6
Beyer M160, hypercardioid ribbon.
I have recorded a LOUD drummer less than 10 feet away perpendicular from guitar amp, and the guitar track had almost no drum bleed whatsoever, and the Beyer doesn't have to be right on the grill either.
M88 has similar rejection.
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Post by bricejchandler on Oct 11, 2016 14:49:31 GMT -6
Beyer M160, hypercardioid ribbon. I have recorded a LOUD drummer less than 10 feet away perpendicular from guitar amp, and the guitar track had almost no drum bleed whatsoever, and the Beyer doesn't have to be right on the grill either. M88 has similar rejection. I've been thinking about checking out the M160 again. I had a pair for a few years, and I really liked them on OHS and acoustic guitars, but always had something I liked better for guitar amps, but back then I wasn't tracking live as much. |
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Post by ericn on Oct 11, 2016 16:57:30 GMT -6
Beyer M160, hypercardioid ribbon. I have recorded a LOUD drummer less than 10 feet away perpendicular from guitar amp, and the guitar track had almost no drum bleed whatsoever, and the Beyer doesn't have to be right on the grill either. M88 has similar rejection. I'm a fan of the 160 & 260, but that hypercardiod pattern can be problematic depending on the room & setup. The beyer's can act like spotlights so be careful! |
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Post by joseph on Oct 11, 2016 20:09:46 GMT -6
Beyer M160, hypercardioid ribbon. I have recorded a LOUD drummer less than 10 feet away perpendicular from guitar amp, and the guitar track had almost no drum bleed whatsoever, and the Beyer doesn't have to be right on the grill either. M88 has similar rejection. I'm a fan of the 160 & 260, but that hypercardiod pattern can be problematic depending on the room & setup. The beyer's can act like spotlights so be careful! Yeah, the M88 is supposed to have -5db less and tighter rear 180 pickup, roughly -15 down compared with -10 from M160. As many here probably know, smooth condenser like dynamic, very sensitive coil. I usually use m88 on kick, but it's good on bass and guitar cabs too. Anyway, the Beyers have proved best for me for good rejection in live situations, and I've tried lots. The M160 has far less room pickup than typical ribbon, particularly 1 foot back (definitely the spotlight effect of hypercards you mention), which is how I like to mic cabs. As far as actual condensers, the E22S has above average rejection too, and can sound great on guitar cabs and take a beating. Like Brice, I also like a U87 on cabs, but I wouldn't use it in most live situations with a loud band. R84 is especially good on silverfaces but in my experience can't compete with M160 for rejection even if you really work the nulls. |
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Post by bricejchandler on Oct 12, 2016 0:56:48 GMT -6
I'm a fan of the 160 & 260, but that hypercardiod pattern can be problematic depending on the room & setup. The beyer's can act like spotlights so be careful! Yeah, the M88 is supposed to have -5db less and tighter rear 180 pickup, roughly -15 down compared with -10 from M160. As many here probably know, smooth condenser like dynamic, very sensitive coil. I usually use m88 on kick, but it's good on bass and guitar cabs too. Anyway, the Beyers have proved best for me for good rejection in live situations, and I've tried lots. The M160 has far less room pickup than typical ribbon, particularly 1 foot back (definitely the spotlight effect of hypercards you mention), which is how I like to mic cabs. As far as actual condensers, the E22S has above average rejection too, and can sound great on guitar cabs and take a beating. Like Brice, I also like a U87 on cabs, but I wouldn't use it in most live situations with a loud band. R84 is especially good on silverfaces but in my experience can't compete with M160 for rejection even if you really work the nulls. Awesome feedback. I have an M88 but I've never used it on cab, always ends up getting used for kick/bass/tom duty, I'll try it! I actually just tried using a pair of schoeps mk21 supercardioid mics on two live guitar amps and the result was surprisingly good sounding, it was missing a bit of the bite I usually get with the AEA but still a very useable sound. Yeah as a player I've often been to a studio where they used the E22S on toms and on my acoustic guitar, and was always impressed with the sound but here in Europe, they are very very expensive, I can get 2 used KM84s for the price of one new E22S, and I've never seen one pop up in the EU classifieds! I actually really love the U87 for heavy guitars, you don't read about that many people using it for that, I'm not sure why. When using my typical SM57/U87/AEA R44 guitar mic setup on a Marshall JTM45 type distorted tone, the U87 is the one that sounds the most mix ready. Back to the Beyers, have you by any chance compared the M160 to the M260 ( the old one without the hipass) for this application? |
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Post by reddirt on Oct 12, 2016 3:23:59 GMT -6
What about the Royer 121 with a reflexion filter on the back if you need a ribbon. I haven't tried it but like the idea of it.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by bricejchandler on Oct 12, 2016 4:18:11 GMT -6
What about the Royer 121 with a reflexion filter on the back if you need a ribbon. I haven't tried it but like the idea of it. Cheers, Ross I had one. Always ended up liking the r92 better on just about anything. Sold both to buy the AEA R44 and haven't really regreted it as the aea has really changed my approach to recording. Out of the two the R92 is the only one I miss occasionally. |
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Post by rowmat on Oct 12, 2016 4:24:40 GMT -6
Yeah, the M88 is supposed to have -5db less and tighter rear 180 pickup, roughly -15 down compared with -10 from M160. As many here probably know, smooth condenser like dynamic, very sensitive coil. I usually use m88 on kick, but it's good on bass and guitar cabs too. Anyway, the Beyers have proved best for me for good rejection in live situations, and I've tried lots. The M160 has far less room pickup than typical ribbon, particularly 1 foot back (definitely the spotlight effect of hypercards you mention), which is how I like to mic cabs. As far as actual condensers, the E22S has above average rejection too, and can sound great on guitar cabs and take a beating. Like Brice, I also like a U87 on cabs, but I wouldn't use it in most live situations with a loud band. R84 is especially good on silverfaces but in my experience can't compete with M160 for rejection even if you really work the nulls. Awesome feedback. I have an M88 but I've never used it on cab, always ends up getting used for kick/bass/tom duty, I'll try it! I actually just tried using a pair of schoeps mk21 supercardioid mics on two live guitar amps and the result was surprisingly good sounding, it was missing a bit of the bite I usually get with the AEA but still a very useable sound. Yeah as a player I've often been to a studio where they used the E22S on toms and on my acoustic guitar, and was always impressed with the sound but here in Europe, they are very very expensive, I can get 2 used KM84s for the price of one new E22S, and I've never seen one pop up in the EU classifieds! I actually really love the U87 for heavy guitars, you don't read about that many people using it for that, I'm not sure why. When using my typical SM57/U87/AEA R44 guitar mic setup on a Marshall JTM45 type distorted tone, the U87 is the one that sounds the most mix ready. Back to the Beyers, have you by any chance compared the M160 to the M260 ( the old one without the hipass) for this application? U87's and U67's were used on the guitar amps on AC/DC's "Back in Black". |
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