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Post by M57 on Aug 25, 2016 16:59:46 GMT -6
I'd love to hear perspectives from all quarters: home studio guys like me, AE types that throw down a quick master for a client, and certainly anyone who masters professionally. For people like me, I'm constantly mastering on the 2-buss. I don't even bother to bounce a mix and then master it. I share my works in progress with folks on-line and constantly tweaking and updating. My understanding is that pros like to work with a mix that has at least 6db of headroom. And I'm interested in how that works too.
I always have a brick wall at the bottom of the plug queue, and working backward from the product seems to make a certain amount of sense because it deconstructs the process. My early mixes plowed into the wall, but I've recently 'discovered' that it's much more civil to compress as much as possible before hitting the wall. I'd love to hear about all the stuff that folks like to use on the 2-buss, but my kick-starter question is, and assuming you have a limiter at the bottom of the chain..
How far are you willing to push into the limiter? I.e., What's the most amount of gain reduction you like to see.. Uh, I mean hear?
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Post by svart on Aug 25, 2016 20:24:33 GMT -6
I don't use a 2-bus limiter per se.. I slam the level into my mix-down converters to shave transients. Everything else is additive compression in the mix, including a light touch by the 2-bus compressor. I use the shaving as a way to get the level up further without affecting the meat of the mix. As for a setting.. I push it until it starts to crackle, then back off until it doesn't! If I can't get it to a certain loudness without apparent distortion, then I know my balance is messed up somewhere in the mix (usually too much mud in the lows and low-mids).
My thought is that I want the final mix as close to how it's supposed to be on the album when it leaves my hands.
I'll admit that some of that comes from defensively controlling the final product, mainly from experiencing poor mastering in the past. Unfortunately it seems that when a mix gets mastered and turns out great, it's the mastering engineer's skills that get praised.. When the master turns out bad, it's the mix engineer that gets blamed.
I always leave most of my go-to gear inserted, with settings that I know get me to a certain point. From there I usually just adjust levels into the gear first and resort to drastic setting changes as a last resort. I feel that it gets me closer to the final mix faster and leaves less chance of me 2nd guessing everything.
What I've found is that a lot of bands talk about getting things mastered, but ultimately they just want something loud and bright. I can strap a sontec on the 2-bus to give it some more top end, and push the mix until it's loud, and that usually completely satisfies them.
I'm also talking about hardware too. I find that it's a lot more forgiving when you push it than plugins are.
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Post by swurveman on Aug 26, 2016 8:27:17 GMT -6
For my Mix Bus I typically use a Smart C2 - hitting it slightly->GML 8200 -> Waves L2. I use my ears with the L2 instead of my eyes. You can hear when it gets funky for the mix. I use a reference mix to try and match. It's typically loud as hell. So, if the L2 can't get it there I have to see what's pushing the L2 too much and then I limit that source and/or look at my EQ balance. It's a back and forth process and it is a big learning curve, which I'm still working on. Good luck!
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Post by jeromemason on Aug 26, 2016 8:44:21 GMT -6
Depends on what kind of music it is, but if I'm competing I usually put whatever buss compressor I'm using on the lowest threshold with the A.O.M limiter behind it and start with the vocal and drums. Once I get those I'll pull the buss compressor into reduction and the limiter maybe knocking like 1 or 2db from that starting point. Then I'll mix the rest of the song and at the end I'll go as far as I can for that style of music with the compressor and again, depending on the music the RMS might be between -11db to -8db.
I always print my mixes, so that mastering chain lives on my monitoring output, when I print back into the DAW I get a totally uncompressed mix that can go to the ME. It may be coincidence because I've never aimed at getting the print mix at -6 on the peak, but that's about where it's at.
Don't be afraid of using a little buss EQ either when you're near done, when I'm mixing I'm usually flipping back and forth between whatever commercial stuff is near what I'm doing and in the end if I am grooving off my mix but it's needs a little something added or taken away that can be a very quick and efficient way to get the DONE seal.
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Post by drbill on Aug 26, 2016 9:19:49 GMT -6
Mix goes thru a Silver Bullet - generally in N mode or A>N mode depending. Then sometimes the Mix will also go thru a SB4001 Serpent Bus compressor depending on the material.
I treat mastering separately, and my current chain is :
1-Oxford EQ + Filters (Always Hi Passed somewhere around 30-40Hz, often mid cuts or HF boosts) > 2-Tokyo Dawn Kotelnikov compressor for tweaky type compression (1.5-4dB or so) > -- sometimes substitute SB4001 if I didn't use it on mix -- 3-Manley Vari-Mu hardware (2-4max dB) > 4-Silver Bullet in A mode for transient shaving and a little LF/HF bump and air sweetness EQ (will often use the vintage Neve console filter as well as air) > 5-Massey L2007 to cap it off (whatever it takes to get things appropriately "loud" which by this point is not too much, but I still use it as a brick wall).....
Seems to be working pretty well for me, but I hate mastering my own stuff. The analog hardware and associated extra passes thru i/o conversion (Avid 16X16's) is what has taken it over the top for me. Occasionally there will be a different EQ or comp in there, but that's pretty much it.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Aug 26, 2016 11:08:59 GMT -6
Ok so I work in rap, trap, Trapsoul, R n B, Pop, top 40 and usually the final master is pushing -6 to -5 RMS with a DR of no more than 5.5-7.5. I know it's slammed and super loud. However, every reference I get is -5 RMS and that's what the client expects. I experiment with bus compression and am finding that if I don't mix into it I don't like it. I am hoping HW bus compressors are different. Idk something about SW bus compressors affecting the LF / low end/ bass I can't stand it, I find I like really short releases like 1-50 MSec. and have found L1 to be my friend in these type of mixes. I Use L1 into Pro L or Ozone Maximizer. Yep two limiters, so if my mix is peaking at -7 I take baby L1 (no dither one) and bring down threshold -6, then take my fader n drop it same amount to see what is effecting. Most of the time when balances are good it's sounds same but better with the added sauce from L1. After baby L1, we are probably peeking around -1 to -.5 & this is where Ozone or pro L will come in the play to get the final overall ISP limiting and volume. Alternatively, when Limiter sauce is not needed, I use clip gain on the mix print to be it to -.1 dbfs and then use Ozone for a slight limiting (1-3 db) but mainly using the Maximizer for ISP. If I don't actively pursue the references I get feedback like: "my record doesn't sound like so and so", "something is missing, the popular artist record hits harder", " I turned the bass and treble up in my car all the way to make it louder like my favorite song but it didn't sound good, but I took the bass and treble off and turned it up louder and I liked it better ", "My iPhone earbuds are at max volume can we make the song louder, my friends says he can't hear it as good on his earbuds" " this doesn't sound like a Beyoncé record it needs more edge" " we have to sweep the listener of their feet in the first 20 seconds" -> stuck with me good little pop/ top 40 jewel. Bus compressors : ITB, I use waves SSL bus comp, waves h comp, api2500, TDR Kotelnikov ( don't trust the GR meter on most of these at all, it will say I'm taking off -3Db but other meters / peak measurement is doesn't correlate ) I have the vertigo vsc2 and find its probably the most flexible bus comp and i would use that all the time if it were able to run on my stable system but no, UAD ties plugs to OSX so me keeping my stable system ( lion OS X ) means no new UAD plugs for me since 5/2014 ( 1176mk2 came out then ). I keep meaning to try the UAD SSL bus comp. Link below to a -6 RMS track. m.soundcloud.com/chaseutb/fire-to-da-flame-scaac-chaseutb-prod-by-chaseutb
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Post by joseph on Aug 26, 2016 12:43:25 GMT -6
DMG limitless.
You can slam a snare like 10db before you hear any timbre change. It is absolutely ridiculous. This is not true of any other limiter I tried. So if I like the sound of the mix and the artist wants it loud, that's what I use, adjusting the release to taste.
Also agree that Kotelnikov is an excellent, very silky bus compressor, and I sometimes use a GSSL on 2bus.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 26, 2016 14:07:27 GMT -6
No time to read all the posts right now. I'll catch up later. M57, I used to do what you do now, put plugs on the 2 Bus and faux master. Thing is, every mix from that time bugs me. There's an edge I can't seem to eradicate.
I surrendered and do this now. I try not to use any plugs in the 2 bus for at least 1/3 of the tracking. For the next third, I might put a tape sim in the 2 to get a feel for the tone I want for the song. When it's pretty good, I put some things on the 2 that I'll use in mastering, Slate's VBC, an Apple compressor, and a few other things like Clariphonic, maybe an EQ, etc. Then, when close to finishing, I remove everything from the 2 except the UAD ATR, and maybe I might keep the the Slate, but only use one or two of the three compressors available. Now, I keep levels down, turn my monitors up, finish mixing. Only if I'm going to send the mix out for other musicians to track to, I might bring the level up a little, but it's temporary.
Then, I'll try a mastering session, and spend more time on the details of the plugs.
You just have to let go and get into a mastering session to really be satisfied. I don't like it either, but there it is.
* I hate to say this but.. sometimes a friend I work with sends a mix from one of his friends. That guy's mixes always sound powerful, clean and louder than mine. All he does is put a limiter on the 2 and give it some volume, as a work mix. He uses something common, like the Waves L2. Why are his mixes better, I can't say for sure but... he uses a real soundboard, arrgghh...
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