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Post by cowboycoalminer on Aug 14, 2016 18:53:01 GMT -6
Travel baseball has sadly ended. Therefore the ole cowboy is back at the console for a long awaited sabbatical from coaching. Now I get to do what I love again! These months I've been away from mixing has been a real eye opener for me. Here's what Ive learned from fresh ears.
1. Fresh ears are essential?? Yes
2. High pass filter essential?? A big hell yes. I never understood until now. My ears were always fried from constant mixing and I couldn't hear it. We acceuate WAAAAY too many highs. HPF way down for best result. I'm asking for opinions here, not preaching. But this is what I hear now on fresh ears!!!
3. ALL plugins are useful, but some are worth the money for that little extra!
4. Chandler.... enough said...
Now, lets go back to number 2. I never realized why my mixes sounded less than what I was looking for until now. It's HPF guys. The racket that's made above 16k is of not much use. At least that's what I'm hearing on new ears (44 year old ears mind you). Young guys please chime in!!!!
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Post by drbill on Aug 14, 2016 19:08:05 GMT -6
You mean LPF not HPF - right? Yeah, with digital DAW's LPF is often critical depending on who tracked it and how. Even with well recorded stuff. Lots of anecdotal stories about this. Theres even some digital console manufacturers that engineer LPFilters into the hardware chain without the option of removing it. They were highly praised by many as being "very analog" sounding. Congrats on getting back to your first love. Baseball is great, but it sucks compared to music.
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 14, 2016 19:11:43 GMT -6
What sources benefit from LPF? I usually LPF e.gtrs and bass. What else?
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Aug 14, 2016 19:15:38 GMT -6
You mean LPF not HPF - right? Yeah, with digital DAW's LPF is often critical depending on who tracked it and how. Even with well recorded stuff. Lots of anecdotal stories about this. Theres even some digital console manufacturers that engineer LPFilters into the hardware chain without the option of removing it. They were highly praised by many as being "very analog" sounding. Congrats on getting back to your first love. Baseball is great, but it sucks compared to music. No, Bill. I mean high pass filter. The top stuff. The racket that I can't really hear anymore that gets in the way. The frequencies that in the tape days, didn't make the record. The sound that we all know and love. Digital it seems to me is so accurate and clinical that we sometimes miss what our ears can actually process instead of mixing what we can hear. I've always used LPF as a religion. But neglected HPF in favor of noise. Glad you chimed in though. This should be a really good discussion and I myself really want to learn from this.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,941
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Post by ericn on Aug 14, 2016 19:30:39 GMT -6
You mean LPF not HPF - right? Yeah, with digital DAW's LPF is often critical depending on who tracked it and how. Even with well recorded stuff. Lots of anecdotal stories about this. Theres even some digital console manufacturers that engineer LPFilters into the hardware chain without the option of removing it. They were highly praised by many as being "very analog" sounding. Congrats on getting back to your first love. Baseball is great, but it sucks compared to music. No, Bill. I mean high pass filter. The top stuff. The racket that I can't really hear anymore that gets in the way. The frequencies that in the tape days, didn't make the record. The sound that we all know and love. Digital it seems to me is so accurate and clinical that we sometimes miss what our ears can actually process instead of mixing what we can hear. I've always used LPF as a religion. But neglected HPF in favor of noise. Glad you chimed in though. This should be a really good discussion and I myself really want to learn from this. You mean Low pass/ high cut , Low pass lets the stuff under the corner freq pass through and blocks those above! I know it's confusing! I'm going to say both are essential but monitoring that lets you hear both ends is even more essential !
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Post by jsteiger on Aug 14, 2016 19:30:41 GMT -6
High pass means to let the "highs pass" and attenuate what is lower than the freq cutoff point. Low pass is letting the lows pass and filtering out the highs above the freq cutoff point.
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Post by jsteiger on Aug 14, 2016 19:32:25 GMT -6
Oops ericn beat me to it! Yes high pass and high cut can be a mind fuck.
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Post by drbill on Aug 14, 2016 19:33:43 GMT -6
It seems we have a connundrum, but we all MEAN the same thing....
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 14, 2016 19:41:16 GMT -6
LF and HF tend to impress us fast.
I think cutting on both ends can make sense. Depend's on the sound I have in mind, depends on the stile of music too.
One reason why I don't like modern mixes is the tendency for HF content like crazy.
What worked in Mix A often does not work in Mix B. I take general statements with a grain of salt, for inspiration.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,941
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Post by ericn on Aug 14, 2016 19:46:26 GMT -6
Oops ericn beat me to it! Yes high pass and high cut can be a mind fuck. I remember doing a festival and having to solve some problem on the stage and telling some yokal to " set all the low cut to 60-70HZ running back to FOH just in time to bring up the fader and find norhing but bass coming out anywhere I jump to the drive rack in a panic ! he had set all the low pass as low as they would go ! I'm cranking the knob on every ch !
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 14, 2016 20:02:51 GMT -6
Yeah - definitely. Listen to the latest Keith Urban record. Sounds really good to me. But you don't hear much of anything over 12khz
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Post by jsteiger on Aug 14, 2016 20:07:25 GMT -6
.....But you don't hear much of anything over 12khz You know me well Johnkenn
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Post by geoff738 on Aug 14, 2016 20:11:39 GMT -6
Yeah - definitely. Listen to the latest Keith Urban record. Sounds really good to me. But you don't hear much of anything over 12khz With my ears you sure don't! I think I sometimes confuse clear with bright. Confuse is maybe not the right word, but I want clear, wide, deep mixes. Sometimes they just end up bright. I think because I fear dull. Can somebody speak to the cutting of high frequencies in the range of human hearing, but the boosting of "air" stuff (well) above 20 KHz? Cheers, Geoff
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Aug 14, 2016 20:17:14 GMT -6
It seems we have a connundrum, but we all MEAN the same thing.... Dauuum. I'm corn fussed....
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Aug 14, 2016 20:19:37 GMT -6
.....But you don't hear much of anything over 12khz You know me well Johnkenn You been holdin' out!!
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Post by drbill on Aug 14, 2016 23:45:33 GMT -6
It seems we have a connundrum, but we all MEAN the same thing.... Dauuum. I'm corn fussed.... FYI - for those who are still scratching their head about filters.....
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Post by drbill on Aug 15, 2016 0:01:24 GMT -6
You mean LPF not HPF - right? Yeah, with digital DAW's LPF is often critical depending on who tracked it and how. Even with well recorded stuff. Lots of anecdotal stories about this. Theres even some digital console manufacturers that engineer LPFilters into the hardware chain without the option of removing it. They were highly praised by many as being "very analog" sounding. Congrats on getting back to your first love. Baseball is great, but it sucks compared to music. No, Bill. I mean high pass filter. The top stuff. The racket that I can't really hear anymore that gets in the way. The frequencies that in the tape days, didn't make the record. The sound that we all know and love. Digital it seems to me is so accurate and clinical that we sometimes miss what our ears can actually process instead of mixing what we can hear. I've always used LPF as a religion. But neglected HPF in favor of noise. Glad you chimed in though. This should be a really good discussion and I myself really want to learn from this. Fascinating subject, and one that seems often missed - especially by younger engineers (not saying you are young CCM... ) Everyone (ok, ok...most everyone) knows about and is committed to using HPF's, but few venture into LPF territory. Basically, IMO, it's critical to getting a mix to sound "analog" if that's what you're after. One technique - if you have ears you trust, and a good monitoring environment, take a 6dB per octave LPFilter, instantiate it or insert it into a track, start out with the corner freq around 20k +, and slowly start sweeping it down until you hear it "doing something" to the signal. Then stop. Move it back up just a tad (for instance, if you could hear it start to cut @ 11k, move it back up to 12k or so) - then go on to the next track and repeat all the way thru your mix. Do a global bypass of all filters on your mix and listen to the difference - the top end will smooth out, there will be room for tracks that NEED the HF, and overall it will sound better when you remove energy that's way up there that you can't hear. That's the first step. Once you master that and feel comfortable killing all your unwanted HF's, start taking creative license and go FURTHER than what you can hear. Try a 12dB per octave filter. Get rid of un-neede HF sizzle on the bass, kick drum, hats or anything else you don't feel needs it - for creative reasons. You'll open up even MORE room up there for the elements that DO need it. Uncongesting the HF in a digital mix is critical, and I'd argue that for digital mixing, is just as important as utilizing good HPF engineering. Glad you're having the epiphany. It's counter intuitive to how we hear stuff "solo'd" and is scary until you get used to it. Another way to accomplish the same thing is do a bunch of analog stuff before, during or after you hit your DAW. Works. Getting rid of un-needed HF rocks the mix!
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 15, 2016 0:35:22 GMT -6
I often use a gentle LPF on my lead vocal, I have a bright high tenor voice and whilst a LDC brings out a lovely mid there can be too much presence especially when I'm belting in a high register. That's where a gentle LPF can be perfect to make the vocal sit in the mix.
That said I have a feeling now I'm tracking with my BAE 1073D and Retro STA Level I will be reaching for the LPF less!
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Post by M57 on Aug 15, 2016 4:39:44 GMT -6
The problem is that the words are misleading because typically, HPF are applied at lower frequencies and LPF are applied at higher frequencies. I.e. The terms describe keeping what you want to hear, but when we use them we usually are thinking in terms of what we don't want to hear. They should have called them High Cut Frequencies, or High Shelving Frequencies. I wonder why didn't they? What were the earliest applications that might explain that?)
Anyway, you may have to think about it when you communicate it, but it's not really a problem when you're actually using it because when you LP, you usually grab the HF knobs without thinking, and of course for those of us who mostly live ITB, there's a visual there making it clear what's going on.
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Post by kilroyrock on Aug 15, 2016 6:00:07 GMT -6
I have never even thought about LPFing across the board, although, putting a slight frown on my 2 bus has always sounded more pleasing! Thanks for the tips!
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 15, 2016 9:08:37 GMT -6
The Fabfilter EQ has a solo button where you can hear what you're rolling off. Pretty interesting to hear what above 10kHz really sounds like.
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Post by henge on Aug 15, 2016 9:46:32 GMT -6
No, Bill. I mean high pass filter. The top stuff. The racket that I can't really hear anymore that gets in the way. The frequencies that in the tape days, didn't make the record. The sound that we all know and love. Digital it seems to me is so accurate and clinical that we sometimes miss what our ears can actually process instead of mixing what we can hear. I've always used LPF as a religion. But neglected HPF in favor of noise. Glad you chimed in though. This should be a really good discussion and I myself really want to learn from this. Fascinating subject, and one that seems often missed - especially by younger engineers (not saying you are young CCM... ) Everyone (ok, ok...most everyone) knows about and is committed to using HPF's, but few venture into LPF territory. Basically, IMO, it's critical to getting a mix to sound "analog" if that's what you're after. One technique - if you have ears you trust, and a good monitoring environment, take a 6dB per octave LPFilter, instantiate it or insert it into a track, start out with the corner freq around 20k +, and slowly start sweeping it down until you hear it "doing something" to the signal. Then stop. Move it back up just a tad (for instance, if you could hear it start to cut @ 11k, move it back up to 12k or so) - then go on to the next track and repeat all the way thru your mix. Do a global bypass of all filters on your mix and listen to the difference - the top end will smooth out, there will be room for tracks that NEED the HF, and overall it will sound better when you remove energy that's way up there that you can't hear. That's the first step. Once you master that and feel comfortable killing all your unwanted HF's, start taking creative license and go FURTHER than what you can hear. Try a 12dB per octave filter. Get rid of un-neede HF sizzle on the bass, kick drum, hats or anything else you don't feel needs it - for creative reasons. You'll open up even MORE room up there for the elements that DO need it. Uncongesting the HF in a digital mix is critical, and I'd argue that for digital mixing, is just as important as utilizing good HPF engineering. Glad you're having the epiphany. It's counter intuitive to how we hear stuff "solo'd" and is scary until you get used to it. Another way to accomplish the same thing is do a bunch of analog stuff before, during or after you hit your DAW. Works. Getting rid of un-needed HF rocks the mix! Excellent advice!!
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Post by drbill on Aug 15, 2016 10:22:52 GMT -6
The Fabfilter EQ has a solo button where you can hear what you're rolling off. Pretty interesting to hear what above 10kHz really sounds like. That sounds like a cool feature. Makes it easier to hear what you're loosing. On another note, I'm kind of amped up this AM. Too freaked out to mix or use any LPF's..... Had to kill a decent size Mojave Green who was on the back porch this morning. First one I've seen here since moving - and easily within striking distance of the back door. I thought these things were supposed to stay in the desert. LOL Unfortunately, no. They are up here at 5500 ft altitude. Dog found it before the wife did thank God. Gets your adrenaline going.....
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Post by jsteiger on Aug 15, 2016 10:40:49 GMT -6
The Fabfilter EQ has a solo button where you can hear what you're rolling off. Pretty interesting to hear what above 10kHz really sounds like. That sounds like a cool feature. Makes it easier to hear what you're loosing. On another note, I'm kind of amped up this AM. Too freaked out to mix or use any LPF's..... Had to kill a decent size Mojave Green who was on the back porch this morning. First one I've seen here since moving - and easily within striking distance of the back door. I thought these things were supposed to stay in the desert. LOL Unfortunately, no. They are up here at 5500 ft altitude. Dog found it before the wife did thank God. Gets your adrenaline going..... Holy crap Dr! I had to quick google to see that its a damn rattlesnake! Yikes. Did you shoot the little bastard?
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Post by svart on Aug 15, 2016 10:42:22 GMT -6
The last few years I've really gotten into HPF and LPF on just about everything to some degree. It absolutely helps, as long as you use it right.
For me, it's one of the absolute basic skills that you have to master to move one rung closer to professional work.
Guitars absolutely get both. Bass will get both sometimes, but the LPF on bass is just to get rid of the amp hiss/fuzz. Various drums will get both to clean up bleed and boom. Vocals will get HPF. Other stuff like BGVs will get both, rather aggressively too.
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