|
|
Post by indiehouse on Jul 19, 2016 14:58:31 GMT -6
So, I'm going to be working on a new studio build with Jeff Hedback. Tossing around the idea of a one room studio (garage conversion). My last studio space was a purpose build in a basement (8' ceilings), but had a separate control room. I'm ready to give that up if it means a bigger space with a better sounding tracking room and a better room to mix in. I'd love to hear from anyone who's working in a one room setup before I get too far down this path. What are your experiences? Advice? Downsides? Upsides? Things you'd do differently or wish'd you had done? Any regrets? nobtwiddler I touched on this briefly in your Augie Meyers session thread, but didn't want to derail that. But I did want to ask if you had any other advice or points to consider. I know you mentioned drum bleed being an issue. What about the reverse? Are there scratch tracks (gtrs, vocals, player noises, etc) getting into your drum mics? Are you using a lot of room mics for drums? You mentioned having iso cabs set up in your basement. Did they not work out in the studio room or was it a space issue? How is it when your tracking acoustic guitar and drums together live? Scratch vocals getting into other mics an issue? I do have the option of using the basement instead of the garage, but the garage space will be bigger with pretty tall ceilings, which I know I'm going to love after dealing with 7'10" ceilings in the other spot. Another option is to convert both, with the garage being the tracking room and the basement being the CR. But that will mean more money and more treading back and forth between rooms to adjust mics and such. I can see that getting old very quickly. I know there are guys out there with bad ass one room setups. Just wanted to solicit some more advice/opinions. |
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jul 19, 2016 15:34:27 GMT -6
Man that higher ceiling would be hard to say no to  |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 19, 2016 16:43:39 GMT -6
Yeah - I would say make the space as big as you can make it.
|
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Jul 19, 2016 17:26:13 GMT -6
Def go for the higher ceilings.
I've worked one room studios since before it was popular. Not always by choice. I'm cool with vocals (actually prefer having the vocalist close), acoustic guitars & stringed instruments. Elec Gtrs not so much. You've gotta have an iso room for the amps - or only run 1-5 watt amps (which I personally prefer). Drums....sorry nob, but no freakin' way unless the room is very, very large. I understand the stopping, making corrections, running another take, adjusting again, etc.. But unless I can have another room I can run cables to, I'll never do that again. Actually, only did it a couple of times. That was enough for for-EVER. Not going to submit myself or the drummer to that ever again. Maybe you can build out the basement for drums. Not ideal, but I suppose it depends on how often you track live drums. The other thing is big brass sections. Not good in the CRM. Basically anything really LOUD! Everything else is OK to great IMO. If my main gig was tracking bands, I'd want a 2 room facility. CRM / Tracking room. Oh yeah, one other thing....it also depends on your comfort level of working in headphones all day long for a week or two if you're tracking/overdubbing. That may or may not be OK with you.
BTW, good choice using Jeff. Tell him I said "hi".
PS - BTW, my new room is not my first "one room" studio. Things that were essential for me or that I did different this time :
a.) #1 absolutely, absolutely, ABSOLUTELY HAD to have a machine room. Deal breaker otherwise for me. So....I guess it's not TECHNICALLY a one room place.....
b.) Got to have killer acoustics. (Jeff will cover you on this)
c.) Have flooring that will take abuse. I went with a "engineered hardwood" floor because of cold and dry humidity in the winters - the hardwood shrinks. I'm not sure I did the right thing. The dog got in while I was gone and scratched the %$#@ out of it. Kind of wish I'd gone with a laminate or real hardwood that won't scratch thru the veneer surface.
d.) Be able to get all noisy stuff OUT of the CRM (see a.) because you will def be recording some very quiet stuff. Hard drives and fans are annoying while mixing, but can kill the take when you're tracking in that environment.
e.) Comfortable and cozy, but with enough room to not feel congested with 4-5 people in it.
f.) KILLER, killer HVAC. Mostly the AC side of things. Oh, and fresh air. Jeff has got you covered on this too. I don't care what anyone says, go 20-30% more than you think you will need with maxed out gear and people figured into the BTU's.
g.) Windows. This should be #2. Gotta have it or it's a deal breaker for me.
h.) Good to great cable management. Even more important with musicians in the room tripping over stuff all the time.
i.) A few years ago I would have said the option for 5.1 surround monitoring. Used to do this a whole lot, but these days, unless you're doing features, I don't think you need it. I opted for the POSSIBILITY if called on, but in reality, didn't spend a lot of space, time or money getting it right this time around.
|
|
|
|
Post by Quint on Jul 19, 2016 18:28:32 GMT -6
I have a one room setup I'm building out right now. Like Dr. Bill, I had to have a machine room to keep fans and HDD noise out of the mics. I also built a dedicated vocal booth/iso room to use for tracking vocals and/or acoustic guitar if loud drums are going at the same time. This room can also be used as needed for isolation of other stuff.
The machine room doubles as an airlock to the outside and it and the vocal booth are in opposite corners with symmetrical angled walls to create a RFZ for the mix position to sit between.
|
|
|
|
Post by channelcat on Jul 19, 2016 19:46:29 GMT -6
The Good Dr. Bill's comments made me think of my time as an intern at Dark Horse (Franklin, TN), before Robin converted the horse barn. We had the drums set up in the isolated drum room (or the lounge, if the session drummer brought 3-pc congas and 5-pc chimes and gong and...a common occurance in '97). We usually worked with a video/security feed for visual communications (along w/ talkback) via an extra monitor in the CR, and then threw the GTR amps in one of the smaller iso rooms just off the CR. My suggestion would be to use the basement for amps, and buy 1 or 2 Little Labs STDs..
Stu
|
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Jul 19, 2016 20:08:40 GMT -6
well I wouldn't want to trudge between different levels to get sounds set up, I would probably focus on a single-level studio plan.
|
|
|
|
Post by stratboy on Jul 19, 2016 20:13:44 GMT -6
I have been in so many home studios where the owner, thinking to imitate the pro studios, has taken a small space and subdivided it into a live room and control room. Result? Two lousy sounding rooms.
When I built my one room studio, I had to overcome my fear of the question, 'how am I going to hear what the mic is picking up if I don't have isolation between the control room ad the studio?' Like others on this thread, I have discovered that thirty seconds to a minute of recording and playback will tell me what I need to know. Over time, I have gotten better at knowing what mic on what source in what position will yield a particular sound. And at mix time, the 25x 25 room, with good LF and reflection control, give me mixes that translate well.
So I say, go for it!
|
|
|
|
Post by nobtwiddler on Jul 19, 2016 20:50:03 GMT -6
Indie,
High ceilings are very important.
USE THE GARAGE~!
With proper dispersion, absorption, they could actually eliminate the need for a separate Iso room!
At my new place they are only 9 feet, but 10 or higher is a good starting point.
"I know you mentioned drum bleed being an issue. What about the reverse? Are there scratch tracks (gtrs, vocals, player noises, etc) getting into your drum mies?"
"How is it when your tracking acoustic guitar and drums together live? Scratch vocals getting into other mics an issue?
- At my joint, since the amplified guitar / bass cabs are in the basement, (total Isolation) no bleed or problems ever from these. VERY COOL!
When recording live acoustic tracks, there can be a little acoustic guitar, upright bass and or vocal leakage into the drums, but it has never really been an issue as yet!
If I perceive a problem, I might ask a vocalist to layback a bit, and just give quiet vocal Q's instead of going for a full performance.
"You mentioned having iso cabs set up in your basement. Did they not work out in the studio room or was it a space issue?"
- Studio space is limited, had NO reason to place the Isolated cabinets in the room. Putting them downstairs was a no brainer, and is easily accessed if need be.
"Are you using a lot of room mics for drums?
- Room mic's here are limited to only 3.
Simply because there isn't much of a room! That being said, a Coles 4038 placed behind the drummers right shoulder, and compressed a bit too much, as well as a stereo pair of Neumann KM-84's aimed opposite the drum kit, at the far wall, (and squashed accordingly) does add quite a bit of depth and space to a kit in my smaller room! Sounds great.
Now to touch on Dr. Bills points.
A - I didn't need a machine room, as I record to Radar, although I had a ISO CAB, but the new Radar is so quiet, no longer needed and sold it to a friend.
When I use a computer for mixing and or mastering, it's a Mac Mini....and again no noise to speak of.
B - Killer acoustics!
Make your room as good as you can afford to. The most important issue.
C - Hardwood Floors?
I dunno, My place has the most beautiful flooring. But they are 90% covered with throw rugs.
Although I do like the option of removing a rug or two, and using the hardwood floors to change the room acoustics.
But a nice looking concrete floor might offer the same acoustic properties, and be a hell of a lot easier to keep, with no wear and tear?
D - (see A)
E - Comfortable & Cozy..
As Bill said, with VIBE FOR DAYS!
I've set up this place to feel like you are someones living room, and to be as comfortable and inviting as possible.
Artists feel at ease here. I can comfortably fit 6 people, and usually when booking a session, I address the fact that there isn't room for guests, family, friends, and hanger ons!
Not surprising, but by eliminating the not necessary people, how smooth and quick a session can go without those distractions-!
F - AC, went thru this today was it was 92 degrees here in NY.
Mine is still under construction.
But as Bill said, Efficient, QUIET and powerful enough for your space, and the part of the country your in. (this applies to heat also!)
G - Windows
Well I gotta say, the place (room) I'm in now is my 6th facility. Until now, I've never had a window in the studio (playing) room. Nor did I think anything of it.
Years ago, I did have windows in the control room in one of my studios in Queens, and floor to ceiling windows in the lounge in my place in Manhattan.
But now I'm here, and there is a giant "BAY" window in the ONE ROOM Studio...As well as 3 other normal sized windows.
And I must say it's pretty cool.
As much as I HATE THE WINTER
I can't tell ya how cool it is for clients when it's snowing outside and they are in the studio watching it all thru the bay window while tracking, singing or whatever.
(especially if I have the fireplace lit!)
I have Theater drapes that can be pulled over the Bay Window, as well as the 3 other windows. This allows me to block out all sunlight if the client so desires. It also helps to eliminate outside noise. The drapes also have the effect of changing the acoustics within the room quite a bit. And I use them accordingly.
And finally and MOST important.
Since my new room is the great room in my house... It's separate, but attached to my house. It has a separate entrance, area for clients to hang, BUT, they need to walk thru part of my residence to get to the Bathroom...
This is a no, no!
For obvious reasons.
As I say this, it really hasn't been a big deal for me, as 98% of everyone I record, is a friend, and or a friend of a friend.
I've been doing this for over 44 years, and almost everyone is a repeat client.
But, still worth mentioning.
I have the option to purchase the new place I'm in, but haven't decided weather I want to stay in NY, simply because of the winters. If I do purchase this place, I will be putting in a separate bathroom for my clients first thing.
So there you have it.
|
|
|
|
Post by jazznoise on Jul 20, 2016 0:24:46 GMT -6
Take it from someone who does his fair share of 1 room sessions - a separate room for monitoring is infinitely better. It saves time, you have a more accurate idea of what's actually going on in the room and you can take do work while players set up and you get an aural break whilst doing so.
Heading in and out can be a pain. Get some good headphones and some headphone extender cables/run a HP amp into the live room. Best of both worlds.
There's also the issue that the acoustic treatment requirements of a monitoring room and a live room don't inherently match and your monitoring position is going to be completely at the mercy of space requirements.
|
|
|
|
Post by hasbeen on Jul 20, 2016 5:03:26 GMT -6
I have a one room studio with a semi isolated CR. I have been using Shure 535 in ear monitors with 3M hearing protection head muffs over top. Between the great isolation from the IEM's alone and the extra buffer from 3M I have been able to position mics in front of everything including loud guitar cabs with great success. I know the sound of my IEM's pretty well (the Shures sure sound great to me!) so the translation is dead on for playback.
The only extra step for improvement would be a good wireless transmitter to eliminate the headphone cable. Right now they are driven by Benchmark headphone amplification.
|
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Jul 20, 2016 15:12:31 GMT -6
I have a one room studio...
For me, who mostly records himself (including real amps and real drums) the biggest issue is when more people are here.
The room gets smaller exponentially as people come in.. weird.... people take up way more space than you would think when you are moving around the room on your own.
My advice, make sure you have enough space for however many you plan on having in there.. shit gets knocked over real fast!
cheers
Wiz
|
|
|
|
Post by swurveman on Jul 20, 2016 16:20:41 GMT -6
Indie, High ceilings are very important. USE THE GARAGE~! With proper dispersion, absorption, they could actually eliminate the need for a separate Iso room! At my new place they are only 9 feet, but 10 or higher is a good starting point. "I know you mentioned drum bleed being an issue. What about the reverse? Are there scratch tracks (gtrs, vocals, player noises, etc) getting into your drum mies?" "How is it when your tracking acoustic guitar and drums together live? Scratch vocals getting into other mics an issue? - At my joint, since the amplified guitar / bass cabs are in the basement, (total Isolation) no bleed or problems ever from these. VERY COOL! When recording live acoustic tracks, there can be a little acoustic guitar, upright bass and or vocal leakage into the drums, but it has never really been an issue as yet! If I perceive a problem, I might ask a vocalist to layback a bit, and just give quiet vocal Q's instead of going for a full performance. "You mentioned having iso cabs set up in your basement. Did they not work out in the studio room or was it a space issue?" - Studio space is limited, had NO reason to place the Isolated cabinets in the room. Putting them downstairs was a no brainer, and is easily accessed if need be. "Are you using a lot of room mics for drums? - Room mic's here are limited to only 3. Simply because there isn't much of a room! That being said, a Coles 4038 placed behind the drummers right shoulder, and compressed a bit too much, as well as a stereo pair of Neumann KM-84's aimed opposite the drum kit, at the far wall, (and squashed accordingly) does add quite a bit of depth and space to a kit in my smaller room! Sounds great. Now to touch on Dr. Bills points. A - I didn't need a machine room, as I record to Radar, although I had a ISO CAB, but the new Radar is so quiet, no longer needed and sold it to a friend. When I use a computer for mixing and or mastering, it's a Mac Mini....and again no noise to speak of. B - Killer acoustics! Make your room as good as you can afford to. The most important issue. C - Hardwood Floors? I dunno, My place has the most beautiful flooring. But they are 90% covered with throw rugs. Although I do like the option of removing a rug or two, and using the hardwood floors to change the room acoustics. But a nice looking concrete floor might offer the same acoustic properties, and be a hell of a lot easier to keep, with no wear and tear? D - (see A) E - Comfortable & Cozy.. As Bill said, with VIBE FOR DAYS! I've set up this place to feel like you are someones living room, and to be as comfortable and inviting as possible. Artists feel at ease here. I can comfortably fit 6 people, and usually when booking a session, I address the fact that there isn't room for guests, family, friends, and hanger ons! Not surprising, but by eliminating the not necessary people, how smooth and quick a session can go without those distractions-! F - AC, went thru this today was it was 92 degrees here in NY. Mine is still under construction. But as Bill said, Efficient, QUIET and powerful enough for your space, and the part of the country your in. (this applies to heat also!) G - Windows Well I gotta say, the place (room) I'm in now is my 6th facility. Until now, I've never had a window in the studio (playing) room. Nor did I think anything of it. Years ago, I did have windows in the control room in one of my studios in Queens, and floor to ceiling windows in the lounge in my place in Manhattan. But now I'm here, and there is a giant "BAY" window in the ONE ROOM Studio...As well as 3 other normal sized windows. And I must say it's pretty cool. As much as I HATE THE WINTER I can't tell ya how cool it is for clients when it's snowing outside and they are in the studio watching it all thru the bay window while tracking, singing or whatever. (especially if I have the fireplace lit!) I have Theater drapes that can be pulled over the Bay Window, as well as the 3 other windows. This allows me to block out all sunlight if the client so desires. It also helps to eliminate outside noise. The drapes also have the effect of changing the acoustics within the room quite a bit. And I use them accordingly. And finally and MOST important. Since my new room is the great room in my house... It's separate, but attached to my house. It has a separate entrance, area for clients to hang, BUT, they need to walk thru part of my residence to get to the Bathroom... This is a no, no! For obvious reasons. As I say this, it really hasn't been a big deal for me, as 98% of everyone I record, is a friend, and or a friend of a friend. I've been doing this for over 44 years, and almost everyone is a repeat client. But, still worth mentioning. I have the option to purchase the new place I'm in, but haven't decided weather I want to stay in NY, simply because of the winters. If I do purchase this place, I will be putting in a separate bathroom for my clients first thing. So there you have it. Thanks for your post nobtwiddler. Concerning your amps in the basement: Did you use any special treatment in the basement? Secondly, is it a basement and utitlity room or a basement separate from the utility room? For me the biggest problem in my one room studio is computer noise. IMO, anybody who has one should put the computer in a closet or other room and get that computer noise out of the room. I didn't and worked with noise reduction software, which though somewhat effective, is no substitute for a noise free environment. |
|
|
|
Post by joseph on Jul 20, 2016 16:44:38 GMT -6
I think the issue could be seen the other way, not so much what you lose by having a one room studio, but what you lose by not having one and how to make up for it.
Musicians play better in a room together without headphones, so do you have an amp room with sliding door across the way with controlled bleed and amp wide open, or gobos around the kit, or do you monitor a DI mix of multiple guitars and bass where musicians balance themselves through a single speaker a la Motown?
Personally I've found a good compromise is to maximize the use of polar patterns, thinner cymbals, and controlled dynamics and try to capture at least a couple players live. Bass players can get out of hand.
M160 or M88 on an amp will get hardly any bleed at all when parallel to an extremely loud drum set some feet away.
But a FOK mic sounds exciting with a little guitar bleed, likewise a vocal sounds better and performance is often better with some live monitor bleed, not headphones.
|
|
|
|
Post by nobtwiddler on Jul 20, 2016 17:42:10 GMT -6
Yo Swurveman,
I have a room that is approx. 20 x 10 with 8 foot ceilings, that I cut out of my basement. I store all equipment that is not used daily in here.
Room has two wood walls and two walls made out of large uncut Stone, (small boulders!) which is the foundation of the house. Room is far from totally insulated.
But where it is, it's not a problem at all.
Now besides this room, I have had 3 x ISO cabs made that I use on occasion that each hold 1 x 12 inch speaker, 1 x 15 inch and or a 10 inch.
They work amazingly well if I have something that is totally over the top in Volume.
The rest of my basement, has the usual,
Washer, Dryer, Electric service panel, Oil tank, Oil Burner, etc.
And the Studio's private pub is also located in the basement.
It's pretty filled up, to say the least.
|
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 20, 2016 20:35:54 GMT -6
My great room and "music room" (one with the piano in it) has like 20 foot ceilings. I've GOT to wall fish so I can record down there. I'm not going to do any absorption in there (aesthetic reasons) but I bet room sound would be a good trade for the openness it would give me. And yes, I know people have been saying that forever.
|
|
|
|
Post by jazznoise on Jul 21, 2016 3:18:13 GMT -6
I think joseph makes a good point, particularly in reference to cutting live on the floor. All sorts of groups from Motown to Mogwai and everything in between have done a record live or almost completely live. It makes for a better experience, often, in that performing is easier and you're closer to the finished product from day 1. I do it for my own band, and for other bands and it can work really great if they have their shit together. The hard bit to take is the sonics are then purely down to the band in many respects, but what's bad about that? I think it's a very different tracking style to overdub based recording. You have to pick your mic positions with both source and bleed in mind - that means relative levels, the balance of ambient vs direct sound, relative timbre(Will adding a high shelf to the double bass make the hi hat bleed really piercing?), panning etc. As such it becomes easier to spot and use well placed room mics to fill out the sound. You can't really rely on processing. It becomes a question of instrument placement, mic placement, mic choice and modifying the source to suit the situation. Except the hi hat, which just always ruins everything. Fuck you, hi hats. |
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,963 
|
Post by ericn on Jul 21, 2016 7:40:09 GMT -6
Paul
Makes a great point, storage is very important in any studio but more so in a one room situation ! You have to think of a safe place for the small valuables (mics) large equipment (instruments,stands,etc.)
And consumables(cables). plus an area for matinance!
More working out of my loft I see my "real world dream studio" as a single room hybrid, large control/tracking room with a small ISO and a machine / storage space ( Dam you DRBill) !
A designer like Jeff, who is a bargain so let's keep him busy is a godsend not just because he's an expert in acoustics construction and keeping it all affordable, he's the sounding board / devils advocate we all need to keep us from free falling down the expensive rabbit hole of our own making!
|
|
|
|
Post by NoFilterChuck on Jul 21, 2016 7:45:32 GMT -6
LOL!!!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Jul 21, 2016 8:53:46 GMT -6
Def go for the higher ceilings. I've worked one room studios since before it was popular. Not always by choice. I'm cool with vocals (actually prefer having the vocalist close), acoustic guitars & stringed instruments. Elec Gtrs not so much. You've gotta have an iso room for the amps - or only run 1-5 watt amps (which I personally prefer). Drums....sorry nob, but no freakin' way unless the room is very, very large. I understand the stopping, making corrections, running another take, adjusting again, etc.. But unless I can have another room I can run cables to, I'll never do that again. Actually, only did it a couple of times. That was enough for for-EVER. Not going to submit myself or the drummer to that ever again. Maybe you can build out the basement for drums. Not ideal, but I suppose it depends on how often you track live drums. The other thing is big brass sections. Not good in the CRM. Basically anything really LOUD! Everything else is OK to great IMO. If my main gig was tracking bands, I'd want a 2 room facility. CRM / Tracking room. Oh yeah, one other thing....it also depends on your comfort level of working in headphones all day long for a week or two if you're tracking/overdubbing. That may or may not be OK with you. BTW, good choice using Jeff. Tell him I said "hi". PS - BTW, my new room is not my first "one room" studio. Things that were essential for me or that I did different this time : a.) #1 absolutely, absolutely, ABSOLUTELY HAD to have a machine room. Deal breaker otherwise for me. So....I guess it's not TECHNICALLY a one room place..... b.) Got to have killer acoustics. (Jeff will cover you on this) c.) Have flooring that will take abuse. I went with a "engineered hardwood" floor because of cold and dry humidity in the winters - the hardwood shrinks. I'm not sure I did the right thing. The dog got in while I was gone and scratched the %$#@ out of it. Kind of wish I'd gone with a laminate or real hardwood that won't scratch thru the veneer surface. d.) Be able to get all noisy stuff OUT of the CRM (see a.) because you will def be recording some very quiet stuff. Hard drives and fans are annoying while mixing, but can kill the take when you're tracking in that environment. e.) Comfortable and cozy, but with enough room to not feel congested with 4-5 people in it. f.) KILLER, killer HVAC. Mostly the AC side of things. Oh, and fresh air. Jeff has got you covered on this too. I don't care what anyone says, go 20-30% more than you think you will need with maxed out gear and people figured into the BTU's. g.) Windows. This should be #2. Gotta have it or it's a deal breaker for me. h.) Good to great cable management. Even more important with musicians in the room tripping over stuff all the time. i.) A few years ago I would have said the option for 5.1 surround monitoring. Used to do this a whole lot, but these days, unless you're doing features, I don't think you need it. I opted for the POSSIBILITY if called on, but in reality, didn't spend a lot of space, time or money getting it right this time around. Great advice, thanks! The space measures around 20 x 23 give or take. I haven't measured ceiling height yet, but it's gotta be at least 10-12 feet. After working and tracking in rooms with a ceiling height of 7', I'm pretty excited by this. After my experience with my previous space, the most important things to me are a good sounding tracking space and a flat mixing spot. At the moment, I don't really have a lot of fan noise issues with my gear. I'm running a 2012 Mac mini with dual SSD's, and it's extremely quiet. I've got a backup drive that's fairly noisy, but it's only powered up when I'm backing up session files. I've got a pretty good collection of outboard gear, and still growing, but none really have any noise issues. So I guess if I can get away with not having a machine room, that would leave more open space to work with. I am worried about the HVAC issue, though. I can see that being expensive. My last CRM was 8x15 and it got hot quick. As much as I would love windows, I'm more concerned with soundproofing. Plus, there's not much to see where the garage is at. I have a sunroom that faces the backyard that was another option. The whole room is windows, and the view is pretty awesome with our property backing up into about 121 acres of woods. I mentioned to Jeff the option of converting the basement as a second room. And I'm totally down for that. I would rather have the tall ceilings to track drums with and to mix in. Plus, the thought of running back and forth between the two sounds like a total pain in the ass. I think the one room is going to wipe me out, financially. So, it's going to have to be just the one room, for starters. I'd consider converting a second room as an option down the road. Perhaps I should run some cable down there ahead of time, just in case? Oh, and I feel you about the floors. I put bamboo floors at my old space. They were so soft, you just looked at them and they would scuff. Definitely not up to par for the rigors of tossing mic cables, drum thrones, amp feet, etc. I have been in so many home studios where the owner, thinking to imitate the pro studios, has taken a small space and subdivided it into a live room and control room. Result? Two lousy sounding rooms. When I built my one room studio, I had to overcome my fear of the question, 'how am I going to hear what the mic is picking up if I don't have isolation between the control room ad the studio?' Like others on this thread, I have discovered that thirty seconds to a minute of recording and playback will tell me what I need to know. Over time, I have gotten better at knowing what mic on what source in what position will yield a particular sound. And at mix time, the 25x 25 room, with good LF and reflection control, give me mixes that translate well. So I say, go for it! Yeah man! That's been pretty much my experience with my last place. I had a fairly small space and wanted the traditional setup, so I ended up with a tracking room 10x19 and a CRM 8x15 all with 7' ceilings. I had found a couple pieces of 1 inch thick glass that came out of a demo'd bank (4'x7'). So that was pretty sweet. Didn't make my rooms sound better, though it did give the space a real studio vibe, which went a long way toward impressing clients. I had stuffed as many panels as I could in my CRM, but still had some issues. Plus, getting 4 or 5 people into that space made things tight. And hot. Really sold on the idea of the garage space. Indie, High ceilings are very important. USE THE GARAGE~! With proper dispersion, absorption, they could actually eliminate the need for a separate Iso room! At my new place they are only 9 feet, but 10 or higher is a good starting point. "I know you mentioned drum bleed being an issue. What about the reverse? Are there scratch tracks (gtrs, vocals, player noises, etc) getting into your drum mies?" "How is it when your tracking acoustic guitar and drums together live? Scratch vocals getting into other mics an issue? - At my joint, since the amplified guitar / bass cabs are in the basement, (total Isolation) no bleed or problems ever from these. VERY COOL! When recording live acoustic tracks, there can be a little acoustic guitar, upright bass and or vocal leakage into the drums, but it has never really been an issue as yet! If I perceive a problem, I might ask a vocalist to layback a bit, and just give quiet vocal Q's instead of going for a full performance. "You mentioned having iso cabs set up in your basement. Did they not work out in the studio room or was it a space issue?" - Studio space is limited, had NO reason to place the Isolated cabinets in the room. Putting them downstairs was a no brainer, and is easily accessed if need be. "Are you using a lot of room mics for drums? - Room mic's here are limited to only 3. Simply because there isn't much of a room! That being said, a Coles 4038 placed behind the drummers right shoulder, and compressed a bit too much, as well as a stereo pair of Neumann KM-84's aimed opposite the drum kit, at the far wall, (and squashed accordingly) does add quite a bit of depth and space to a kit in my smaller room! Sounds great. Now to touch on Dr. Bills points. A - I didn't need a machine room, as I record to Radar, although I had a ISO CAB, but the new Radar is so quiet, no longer needed and sold it to a friend. When I use a computer for mixing and or mastering, it's a Mac Mini....and again no noise to speak of. B - Killer acoustics! Make your room as good as you can afford to. The most important issue. C - Hardwood Floors? I dunno, My place has the most beautiful flooring. But they are 90% covered with throw rugs. Although I do like the option of removing a rug or two, and using the hardwood floors to change the room acoustics. But a nice looking concrete floor might offer the same acoustic properties, and be a hell of a lot easier to keep, with no wear and tear? D - (see A) E - Comfortable & Cozy.. As Bill said, with VIBE FOR DAYS! I've set up this place to feel like you are someones living room, and to be as comfortable and inviting as possible. Artists feel at ease here. I can comfortably fit 6 people, and usually when booking a session, I address the fact that there isn't room for guests, family, friends, and hanger ons! Not surprising, but by eliminating the not necessary people, how smooth and quick a session can go without those distractions-! F - AC, went thru this today was it was 92 degrees here in NY. Mine is still under construction. But as Bill said, Efficient, QUIET and powerful enough for your space, and the part of the country your in. (this applies to heat also!) G - Windows Well I gotta say, the place (room) I'm in now is my 6th facility. Until now, I've never had a window in the studio (playing) room. Nor did I think anything of it. Years ago, I did have windows in the control room in one of my studios in Queens, and floor to ceiling windows in the lounge in my place in Manhattan. But now I'm here, and there is a giant "BAY" window in the ONE ROOM Studio...As well as 3 other normal sized windows. And I must say it's pretty cool. As much as I HATE THE WINTER I can't tell ya how cool it is for clients when it's snowing outside and they are in the studio watching it all thru the bay window while tracking, singing or whatever. (especially if I have the fireplace lit!) I have Theater drapes that can be pulled over the Bay Window, as well as the 3 other windows. This allows me to block out all sunlight if the client so desires. It also helps to eliminate outside noise. The drapes also have the effect of changing the acoustics within the room quite a bit. And I use them accordingly. And finally and MOST important. Since my new room is the great room in my house... It's separate, but attached to my house. It has a separate entrance, area for clients to hang, BUT, they need to walk thru part of my residence to get to the Bathroom... This is a no, no! For obvious reasons. As I say this, it really hasn't been a big deal for me, as 98% of everyone I record, is a friend, and or a friend of a friend. I've been doing this for over 44 years, and almost everyone is a repeat client. But, still worth mentioning. I have the option to purchase the new place I'm in, but haven't decided weather I want to stay in NY, simply because of the winters. If I do purchase this place, I will be putting in a separate bathroom for my clients first thing. So there you have it. Thanks so much for the advice, man! I think you're giving me the confidence in a one room decision. I like the idea of the iso cabs in the basement. Did you run in wall cable runs to the basement? Are your iso boxes a 'speaker in a box' design, or more of a 'stick the amp in the box' design? I heard total amp iso boxes can get real hot if not properly ventilated. Also, how do you deal with the back and forth of players tweaking their amp settings or running amp switching pedals (like amp verb, vibrato, channel switching, etc)? I also wonder if picking up something like a Kemper might be an option? I'm with you on vibe. It's definitely got to have an atmosphere about it. I'm hoping a 20x23 space won't get too crowded too fast. I should also mention that I'm not trying to run a commercial space. I worked at a commercial studio and it came with it's own bag of problems. I worked for peanuts on stuff that I didn't particularly enjoy. I left and went to grad school and now work for a University in multimedia, where I still get to be creative. Plus I over three times as much as I did. I choose to work with bands I dig, because I don't need to open my doors to every dong who thinks they're the next big thing. I don't want those people in my home. I work strictly from word of mouth, and it keeps me plenty busy. And I'm getting repeat clients. So I really dig and appreciate what you're saying about having a bunch of random people in my home, doing their business where my family does. Though, I'm lucky in that there's a guest bathroom right off from the garage entrance, so I won't necessarily be putting in a bathroom. Between that and the fact that I'm a private studio, I feel good about the people I bring into my space. I think the issue could be seen the other way, not so much what you lose by having a one room studio, but what you lose by not having one and how to make up for it. Musicians play better in a room together without headphones, so do you have an amp room with sliding door across the way with controlled bleed and amp wide open, or gobos around the kit, or do you monitor a DI mix of multiple guitars and bass where musicians balance themselves through a single speaker a la Motown? Personally I've found a good compromise is to maximize the use of polar patterns, thinner cymbals, and controlled dynamics and try to capture at least a couple players live. Bass players can get out of hand. M160 or M88 on an amp will get hardly any bleed at all when parallel to an extremely loud drum set some feet away. But a FOK mic sounds exciting with a little guitar bleed, likewise a vocal sounds better and performance is often better with some live monitor bleed, not headphones. Well, nothing is off the table at this stage, but I don't know if there are plans for designing amp rooms in this setup. But I do think people feel better and more natural playing together in the same space. I mean, that's how music is played. The energy of everyone on the same level. Take it from someone who does his fair share of 1 room sessions - a separate room for monitoring is infinitely better. It saves time, you have a more accurate idea of what's actually going on in the room and you can take do work while players set up and you get an aural break whilst doing so. Heading in and out can be a pain. Get some good headphones and some headphone extender cables/run a HP amp into the live room. Best of both worlds. There's also the issue that the acoustic treatment requirements of a monitoring room and a live room don't inherently match and your monitoring position is going to be completely at the mercy of space requirements. True, I agree about the acoustic requirements of a live room and monitoring position being different, but I gotta believe that Jeff can design something that will rock both. I have a one room studio... For me, who mostly records himself (including real amps and real drums) the biggest issue is when more people are here. The room gets smaller exponentially as people come in.. weird.... people take up way more space than you would think when you are moving around the room on your own My advice, make sure you have enough space for however many you plan on having in there.. shit gets knocked over real fast cheers Wiz How big is your room, Wiz? I think joseph makes a good point, particularly in reference to cutting live on the floor. All sorts of groups from Motown to Mogwai and everything in between have done a record live or almost completely live. It makes for a better experience, often, in that performing is easier and you're closer to the finished product from day 1. I do it for my own band, and for other bands and it can work really great if they have their shit together. The hard bit to take is the sonics are then purely down to the band in many respects, but what's bad about that? I think it's a very different tracking style to overdub based recording. You have to pick your mic positions with both source and bleed in mind - that means relative levels, the balance of ambient vs direct sound, relative timbre(Will adding a high shelf to the double bass make the hi hat bleed really piercing?), panning etc. As such it becomes easier to spot and use well placed room mics to fill out the sound. You can't really rely on processing. It becomes a question of instrument placement, mic placement, mic choice and modifying the source to suit the situation. Except the hi hat, which just always ruins everything. Fuck you, hi hats. Man, you know I think you're spot on. I'm thinking this will challenge me to become a better tracking engineer and really know mic choice and techniques inside and out. Nothing is ever perfect, and everything comes with a tradeoff/compromise. I'll need to work around the limitations of not having a second room, but I'm excited about taking on this challenge. I really think this will turn out to be a bad ass one room studio, with a choice selection of mics and outboard. I don't need to have it all, just a space and tools to make great sounding records with people that I enjoy working with. |
|
|
|
Post by kilroyrock on Jul 21, 2016 10:44:34 GMT -6
I would wear ear plugs inside of my cans when tracking drums in a one room. it was the only way to turn it up louder than the drums that were 5 feet away were hitting, without killing my ears! It's the single reason I am finishing out the old 2 car detached garage on the house I got last year. It's also the reason I've tended to "fix it in the mix", because everything's so damn in my face I can't make it sound good going in, and have to hope I'm doing it right. Then I'm fighting the ol' uphill battle. I just don't want to do that anymore!
|
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Jul 21, 2016 15:22:21 GMT -6
indiehouse How big is your room, Wiz?I had to go find a tape measure... 8)
it measures:
Length 26'
Width 14' 8"
Height slopes right to left at mix postion
8' - 8' 4"
cheers
Wiz
|
|
