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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 18, 2013 14:22:09 GMT -6
Each person needs to find their own way to connect with listeners.
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Post by mobeach on Nov 18, 2013 17:53:01 GMT -6
Dream Theater sold 35,000 albums in the first week, surpassing Metallica, Hagar and Cyrus. They don't even receive commercial air play either. I think when you're that good! and have a loyal following your album sales will be there. These other artists probably don't offer a product where you can sit down and listen to the whole thing. What I like about Dream Theater is they're so talented, and intricate, there's always going to be something you missed the first, second or third time you listened to it.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 18, 2013 19:57:10 GMT -6
Airplay is the most unrelated to sales that I can remember.
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Post by mobeach on Nov 18, 2013 20:37:57 GMT -6
Then how does the non commercial band have better sales than the commercial band? Do you think it's just a more loyal following? If that's the case then what's the advantage of commercialism? Marketing etc..
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Post by levon on Nov 19, 2013 7:24:49 GMT -6
1. The very fact that Elton John and Paul McCartney are even putting out albums today is one problem. Why? They had their day. They've made enough money for 100 retirements. Bow out gracefully. This has been a huge problem with the music industry for 50 years. For Pete's Sake, KNOW WHEN you're old. Know when you should be retired. Know when to bow out gracefully and leave your legacy in tact. Have some dignity!! If you still wish to be in the business, then invest in new artists instead of your own bloated and irrelevant ego. The queen and macca were 2 of my faves, BTW. 2. The fact that Elton and Macca are being mentioned in the article disturbs me, when there are so many other important (and relatively newer yet to be successful artists) who are more relevant to today's music business that aren't gaining any traction. Delta Spirit? Mothertruckers? hundreds of others. 3. He seems completely ignorant to the current EP and Vinyl trends happening. A lot of younger bands are doing one or both of these things today: Recording and releasing 4-5 song EPs on CD with a download key and doing so every 6 months or less to a loyal following... although most are only selling 250-500 copies of each of these. THE OTHER side is Vinyl. 5 to 8 songs pressed on vinyl with a big sleeve, just like the old days, and a download key with the product. Fans feel compelled to buy the vinyl cos it's real. Then they get the instant access of the digital download to fill their iphones, ipads, itunes etc. And where it's a locked copyright protected MP3 in some cases, it doesn't get shared. In other cases because they're buying vinyl, when they are asked to share they tell their friends "Buy your own damned copy, this one is mine". Just some things to think about. I think I have a serious problem with the attitude you display here. (Edit) and your comments in the following posts.
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Post by littlesicily on Nov 19, 2013 13:24:35 GMT -6
Ward has made some great contributions to various threads here. While I disagreed with his initial post in this thread, I'd like to suggest that we keep our disagreements to "information" and not give in to making character judgements or being easily offended. John K has created a great site here with a good bunch of folks which I'm glad to dialogue with. Let's maintain a culture of honesty and mutual respect.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 19, 2013 16:59:43 GMT -6
Depends on what one means by "commercial." A successful artist has a large fan-base. Radio is only one way to grow a fan-base and it has become less and less effective. A lot of today's best selling artists grew a substantial fan-base years ago. Reality TV has worked for some younger artists. What's unfortunate is that the live venues that once grew artists are mostly gone. That's actually an opportunity!
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 19, 2013 17:17:20 GMT -6
Yeah, guys...don't be thin-skinned. Opinions are like assholes...so, just don't be an asshole...when you have an opinion...Er...
OK - bad analogy...but anyway, you get the point. Just because somebody might have a different opinion doesn't mean you have the right to attack them. Just state yours and believe the other guy is ignorant.
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Post by popmann on Nov 19, 2013 20:30:36 GMT -6
Hey, if someone's gonna be an asshole with their opinion, it should like totally be me....what are we talkin' about?
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 19, 2013 21:06:13 GMT -6
I resemble the remark, i should know better, i reacted to some disparagement of some of my musical hero's...poorly, i edited my posts to be less "thin skinned" shortly after i posted.
I apologize to anyone i may have offended.
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Post by Ward on Nov 20, 2013 8:04:27 GMT -6
1. The very fact that Elton John and Paul McCartney are even putting out albums today is one problem. Why? They had their day. They've made enough money for 100 retirements. Bow out gracefully. This has been a huge problem with the music industry for 50 years. For Pete's Sake, KNOW WHEN you're old. Know when you should be retired. Know when to bow out gracefully and leave your legacy in tact. Have some dignity!! If you still wish to be in the business, then invest in new artists instead of your own bloated and irrelevant ego. The queen and macca were 2 of my faves, BTW. 2. The fact that Elton and Macca are being mentioned in the article disturbs me, when there are so many other important (and relatively newer yet to be successful artists) who are more relevant to today's music business that aren't gaining any traction. Delta Spirit? Mothertruckers? hundreds of others. 3. He seems completely ignorant to the current EP and Vinyl trends happening. A lot of younger bands are doing one or both of these things today: Recording and releasing 4-5 song EPs on CD with a download key and doing so every 6 months or less to a loyal following... although most are only selling 250-500 copies of each of these. THE OTHER side is Vinyl. 5 to 8 songs pressed on vinyl with a big sleeve, just like the old days, and a download key with the product. Fans feel compelled to buy the vinyl cos it's real. Then they get the instant access of the digital download to fill their iphones, ipads, itunes etc. And where it's a locked copyright protected MP3 in some cases, it doesn't get shared. In other cases because they're buying vinyl, when they are asked to share they tell their friends "Buy your own damned copy, this one is mine". Just some things to think about. I think I have a serious problem with the attitude you display here. (Edit) and your comments in the following posts. Purposely mixing it up, Levon. We have had a systematic problem in the music industry for decades where many new artists don't even get to break the ground because all the resources are devoted to "the greats", who are great and were great influences on all of us, but the problem is when all the resources are devoted to "safe bets" and not being put into developing new music for the next generations. There was a time when record companies put money and time into developing new acts. If that hadn't happened, we wouldn't have Steely Dan, Fleetwood Mac, Lenny Kravitz amongst many many others. So, how many of these have we lost because resources and efforts were diverted elsewhere so that less risk was involved. Of course with less risk often comes less reward. I've been playing the role of devil's advocate here, and this has not been an attack on either Macca or Sir Elton. But you know, sometimes you need to realize you have a shelf-life and bow out gracefully and leave your legacy in tact. I'm sorry if anyone was offended, that was not my intention.
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Post by levon on Nov 20, 2013 9:03:14 GMT -6
I think I have a serious problem with the attitude you display here. (Edit) and your comments in the following posts. Purposely mixing it up, Levon. We have had a systematic problem in the music industry for decades where many new artists don't even get to break the ground because all the resources are devoted to "the greats", who are great and were great influences on all of us, but the problem is when all the resources are devoted to "safe bets" and not being put into developing new music for the next generations. There was a time when record companies put money and time into developing new acts. If that hadn't happened, we wouldn't have Steely Dan, Fleetwood Mac, Lenny Kravitz amongst many many others. So, how many of these have we lost because resources and efforts were diverted elsewhere so that less risk was involved. Of course with less risk often comes less reward. I've been playing the role of devil's advocate here, and this has not been an attack on either Macca or Sir Elton. But you know, sometimes you need to realize you have a shelf-life and bow out gracefully and leave your legacy in tact. I'm sorry if anyone was offended, that was not my intention. I know, I've been there and have had first-hand experience with that. Worked with a bunch of artists that never had a chance because all label promotion money went to the 'greats' that guaranteed success/record sales and a safe job for the A&R in charge. Those were major labels. Some of the 'greats' deserved all the promotion they got, some didn't. Again, what I and others take exception of is your use of the 'shelf life' term associated with older artists. True artists have no shelf life, they certainly don't need the money (in the case of Elton or Macca) and they do it for the love of music. Listening to the new Elton John and McCartney albums, I feel that they are still very much relevant to today's music, much more so than the examples you mentioned and that I haven't even heard of. There is no need for these older artists to 'bow out' they still have a lot to give to the world and many are glad that they do. How old was Satchmo, Sinatra, Miles Davis, Bernstein and others when they were still active? Didn't they realize that their shelf life was up a long time ago? What if they would have 'bowed out gracefully'? What would we have missed? You hit upon a valid point but to suggest that older artists stop being creative is just silly. They HAVE to create, because that's what they do. Regardless of age. And you do realize that a lot of those great artists don't even have deals with major labels anymore? Labels go with the Miley Cyrusses and Taylor Swifts of this world. They guarantee sales, Elton John or McCartney don't.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 20, 2013 10:18:49 GMT -6
The music business isn't separated from the economy we are in. There are so many factors that led to our current state of affairs, that pinning it on some musical dinosaurs is myopic. Much of what people think is shaped by the media. So, McCartney and Elton make some records, well, they're musicians, that's what they do. What the world does with it a different matter though. What they do now has no real effect on what any other artist might do, or whether there's money left to support new artists. In fact, it was the money generated by those huge selling artists that funded all that label development in the first place. Since we're talking about the music BUSINESS, looks at the facts. A company sells a product, someone can generate a certain amount of sales, forget their history, we're talking business. So, a company decides to promote a product, based on probable sales return on their investment. It has nothing to do with any other artist at this time. If the company can make some money, they'll do it, or they'll do it knowing there's loss involved, but as a loss leader for prestige reasons.
When I read about how labels used to support artists and develop new acts, I have to sigh at the distortions that time and distance have created. I was IN the business during those times of label artist development, and believe me, it wasn't much different on the inside than it is today. It is true that by maintaining support, certain very good bands survived to make great music, but many more bands were ruined by the labels support of generic music that sells. That's how we got REO Speedwagon making millions, and the Clash dying on the vine. So, we're into it as artists, and the labels are into as a business. Did some of the people at labels begin by loving music, of course, that doesn't change how they got to where they are. It's a lot like politics, only a rare few survive with integrity intact. Someone like Rick Rubin is a good example, he's worked with many great artists and helped them recover and regain their lives, all the while making music that makes money. There has never been a safety net for artists. When I was getting started, NYC was crumbling, and there was no path to any kind of future stability. We made music anyway, and that became the Punk movement, and over 20-30 years, they were assimilated into the mainstream.
The old, old guard have nothing to do with the success of anyone new today, (other than being an influence musically), it's entirely in the hands of new artists to figure out how to work within or without the forms the music business is taking. Saying that big name older artists like McCartney, Elton, Bowie are somehow taking up space better used by new artists is a straw man argument.
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Post by Ward on Nov 20, 2013 11:03:57 GMT -6
Fair points, but someone had to open up the discussion!! And if "someone" hadn't, we wouldn't have discussed some really important points about the business of music today - which is what we all are in!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 20, 2013 11:18:06 GMT -6
Yes, it has gotten me rethinking my own "album" paradigm of working. I've typically waited until I had a complete album recorded before promoting. I'm beginning to look at alternatives to that. Perhaps a release a month, extras for contributors, who knows..
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Post by Ward on Nov 20, 2013 11:22:23 GMT -6
Yes, it has gotten me rethinking my own "album" paradigm of working. I've typically waited until I had a complete album recorded before promoting. I'm beginning to look at alternatives to that. Perhaps a release a month, extras for contributors, who knows.. I refer you to what I thought would've been taken as the most important point in my initial post: This is what is actually happening now, and it's working.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 20, 2013 11:25:41 GMT -6
Yep, good ideas there. I'd like to know more about how to "lock" mp3's I send out.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 20, 2013 11:30:11 GMT -6
I have my 13 song album pre produced, and as soon as i'm done this albatrostic(no such word) build of a studio, i'll be starting the finished recordings of it. It has 6 tunes that seamlessly melt intro's and outro's into one another, it's very much a part of the(self important rock star voice) musical statement i'm trying to make 8), i liken it to abby road, without all the stupidly great songs and talent lol. My stuff is an acoustic heavy rock funk thing.
fortunately, i'm doing it for my enjoyment, if others dig it, that's a bonus 8)
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Post by Ward on Nov 20, 2013 11:38:35 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 20, 2013 11:42:27 GMT -6
KUMBAYA MY LORD...KUMBAYAAAAAAA
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Post by Ward on Nov 20, 2013 11:44:19 GMT -6
You're on to something there. New song?
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 20, 2013 11:46:03 GMT -6
Well, there's always a different side of the story... www.theverge.com/2013/9/16/4736834/amazon-vinyl-sales-up-745-percent-since-2008-but-wont-save-musicHere's more fodder for those who argue that a large number of consumers still want physical media: vinyl sales at Amazon are up 745 percent from five years ago, the company said this morning. "Vinyl is the fastest growing music medium on Amazon," the company stated. Amazon also said that vinyl is the most popular medium within AutoRip, the feature that provides customers with free MP3 copies of select vinyl albums or CDs they purchase from the online store. Amazon's reported growth in vinyl sales is consistent with an industrywide trend. Nielsen SoundScan estimates that vinyl unit sales will grow to 5.5 million in 2013. VINYL SALES IS STILL ONLY TWO PERCENT OF OVERALL MARKET If that figure doesn't sound very big to you, it's because it's not. The Recording Industry Association of America says that it too saw a sales spike in 2012 of 29 percent, but that the figure still only represented 2 percent of the overall market. One reason that vinyl might be making up a larger share of music sales at Amazon is the decline of the other formats. Download sales are soft and the CD is headed for obscurity. Most in the music industry say what's hurting downloads is the rise of subscription music services, such as Spotify and Rdio, and web radio services like Pandora. Unlike a growing number of competitors in the online music area, Amazon hasn't branched into subscription or web radio in any significant way. Regardless, vinyl remains the preferred format for a niche group.
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Post by scumbum on Nov 20, 2013 12:13:53 GMT -6
Well, there's always a different side of the story... www.theverge.com/2013/9/16/4736834/amazon-vinyl-sales-up-745-percent-since-2008-but-wont-save-musicHere's more fodder for those who argue that a large number of consumers still want physical media: vinyl sales at Amazon are up 745 percent from five years ago, the company said this morning. "Vinyl is the fastest growing music medium on Amazon," the company stated. Amazon also said that vinyl is the most popular medium within AutoRip, the feature that provides customers with free MP3 copies of select vinyl albums or CDs they purchase from the online store. Amazon's reported growth in vinyl sales is consistent with an industrywide trend. Nielsen SoundScan estimates that vinyl unit sales will grow to 5.5 million in 2013. VINYL SALES IS STILL ONLY TWO PERCENT OF OVERALL MARKET If that figure doesn't sound very big to you, it's because it's not. The Recording Industry Association of America says that it too saw a sales spike in 2012 of 29 percent, but that the figure still only represented 2 percent of the overall market. One reason that vinyl might be making up a larger share of music sales at Amazon is the decline of the other formats. Download sales are soft and the CD is headed for obscurity. Most in the music industry say what's hurting downloads is the rise of subscription music services, such as Spotify and Rdio, and web radio services like Pandora. Unlike a growing number of competitors in the online music area, Amazon hasn't branched into subscription or web radio in any significant way. Regardless, vinyl remains the preferred format for a niche group. What I wanna see is what vinyl is selling , what genre , which music . I love CD's , I'm buying them really cheap on ebay , its pretty awesome .
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 20, 2013 14:24:23 GMT -6
Lot of Folk and Indie stuff is on vinyl these days. Sufjan Stevens, Minus the Bear, The Cave SIngers, all that stuff is coming on vinyl. I've even got The Fame by Lady Gaga on vinyl.
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Post by scumbum on Nov 20, 2013 16:15:12 GMT -6
Lot of Folk and Indie stuff is on vinyl these days. Sufjan Stevens, Minus the Bear, The Cave SIngers, all that stuff is coming on vinyl. I've even got The Fame by Lady Gaga on vinyl. I "think" , not sure , but I think its just popular with the "Indie" music scene . Its the trendy , cool , popular thing with those guys to buy vinyl . Outside of that circle , I don't know if people are buying vinyl . Like if you do rap , Metal or country , for example , I don't think those audiences cares about vinyl .
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