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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2016 14:47:54 GMT -6
...I came here coz I thought this place was an antidote to legal highs .......
anyway now I'm here, can an acoustic pickup (eg fishman) DI ever be as good as a well miked acoustic.
I struggle to get a decent acoustic sound in my home studio and wondered ........
Thanks and hello btw
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Post by drbill on Jul 3, 2016 17:52:52 GMT -6
Hey Man, welcome.
Personally, in my experience, no. I've had soooo many guitarists come in and tell me how awesome their pickups are and that they want to use em when we record -- and I am always polite, nod, smile and put up a KM84 and tell them that I like options - we'll use whatever works best. And we record both.
Upon listening back, I've never had them tell me they hated the KM84, and love their pickup track. Never. So that's MY experience, and my $0.02.
Now......if your room sucks, or your mic selection sucks, or your preamp sucks or your skills suck or they ALL suck cause you don't have the tools and experience you'd prefer - then yeah, maybe the pickup version will sound better. But generally, I've never used a pickup acoustic guitar track other than "ghosted in the background". So take it for what it's worth. Don't be discouraged by the struggle. Embrace it, try different things, and move forward in your skills. That's how we learn. We have ALL have struggled to get what we hear in our head, and truthfully, we STILL struggle if we're trying to grow in our craft.
Keep after it. And best of luck.
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Post by rowmat on Jul 3, 2016 18:24:38 GMT -6
...I came here coz I thought this place was an antidote to legal highs ....... anyway now I'm here, can an acoustic pickup (eg fishman) DI ever be as good as a well miked acoustic. I struggle to get a decent acoustic sound in my home studio and wondered ........ Thanks and hello btw If you want an acoustic guitar to sound like an acoustic guitar that has been recorded in real acoustic space then I know of no pickup that will achieve this. Piezo's/contact transducers, magnetics etc. will not capture the natural acoustic space and simply adding reverb to a dry pickup will sound like you have added reverb to a dry pickup. The Neumann KM84 (not the KM184) is still considered by many (myself included) as one of the best microphones ever produced for recording acoustic instruments. Others may suggest alternatives but IMO if I could only have one mic for recording everything it would be a KM84.
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Post by drbill on Jul 3, 2016 18:50:54 GMT -6
Or a KM86 (preferred IMO) if you can have only one....
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Post by rowmat on Jul 3, 2016 19:10:17 GMT -6
Or a KM86 (preferred IMO) if you can have only one.... Ditto... I'm still looking!
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Post by drbill on Jul 3, 2016 19:13:43 GMT -6
Or a KM86 (preferred IMO) if you can have only one.... Ditto... I'm still looking! Keep looking!!! It took me about 5 years, but I found a pristine pair, and I find them a touch more balanced in the upper freqs. My 84's haven't seen much use on acoustic guitars since getting the 84's. I've taken to using an 84 on the side of snares though. Rocks there. They are killer on the top of snare too but I'm too chicken to use them there.....
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 3, 2016 20:00:13 GMT -6
No - but I really like K&K pickups.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2016 11:20:55 GMT -6
Thanks all. I'll persevere a bit more with mike placement and experiment. Neumann's a bit beyond me, will check out K&K. I think you're all gently pointing me towards a decent studio, and I agree. Been in a few with bands, which was great, but never felt confident to go it alone in one. P.S. found my way here after lurking for years at that other place that can't be mentioned. I like what you've got here, thanks for letting me join.
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 4, 2016 11:34:18 GMT -6
Piezo pickups are garbage. Magnetic ones can be good for running into FX or an amp, but they're not the real McCoy. Omni out front, or maybe a stereo pair if you're being fancy.
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Post by swurveman on Jul 4, 2016 13:09:32 GMT -6
Now......if your room sucks, or your mic selection sucks... drbill, Do you have a separate room for recording acoustic guitar? One of the things I'm trying to work out in my new studio rebuild is having a good space for recording acoustic guitar in my dual use (tracking/mixing) room. It is one of the things I've discussed with Jeff Hedback. So, it will be interesting to see if it can be done.
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Post by drbill on Jul 4, 2016 14:22:34 GMT -6
I generally record acoustic in the CRM. Sounds great in the new room.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2016 14:25:49 GMT -6
Just as an aside , been having a listen via those links some of you have. Quality lives here.Particularly love that Gretchen Wilson recording (bit of a Chuck Prophet vibe on guitar)
I've got a K.Yairi (aka nearly-a-Martin) without a pickup but can't seem to get it to record anything like it sounds when played. I normally end up DI'ing my Ovation which has a sound I can only describe as "rubbery" (no, not chinese). I don't use a pick, would that affect mic placement (I'm thinking as there is less top end without a pick)?
P.S. I apologise for mentioning K.Yairi and Ovation to all you acoustic guitar purists and will now wash my mouth out with soap:)
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Post by rowmat on Jul 4, 2016 16:04:15 GMT -6
Just as an aside , been having a listen via those links some of you have. Quality lives here.Particularly love that Gretchen Wilson recording (bit of a Chuck Prophet vibe on guitar) I've got a K.Yairi (aka nearly-a-Martin) without a pickup but can't seem to get it to record anything like it sounds when played. I normally end up DI'ing my Ovation which has a sound I can only describe as "rubbery" (no, not chinese). I don't use a pick, would that affect mic placement (I'm thinking as there is less top end without a pick)? P.S. I apologise for mentioning K.Yairi and Ovation to all you acoustic guitar purists and will now wash my mouth out with soap:) K.Yairi does make decent guitars. I have one that I like very much. I was never a fan of Ovations though... especially their pickup sound which seemed to personify the piezo "quack" that gave most piezo pickups a bad name. You'll have a more defined attack with a pick, less so with fleshy finger tips. One is not necessarily better than the other, it depends what suits the piece. What mic and room setup have you been using? ie. mic, mic position, preamp and most importantly, what are the room acoustics like? Unless you are listening from the microphone's position any instrument will sound quite different from the players perspective and the audience's perspective. If you can get someone else to play your guitar then I suggest you put on a set of headphones and move the mic around until it matches the sound you have in your head, or as closely as possible. Don't use any EQ or effects while testing for the best mic position. The purpose is to get the best baseline sound with just the mic, guitar and room.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2016 6:34:15 GMT -6
I was never a fan of Ovations though... especially their pickup sound which seemed to personify the piezo "quack" that gave most piezo pickups a bad name.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2016 6:36:04 GMT -6
Ha ha struggling with this quotation lark. That does describe the sound I'm getting. Not really one for throwing up links but last few seconds at the end of the following track ( link) is just the acoustic - quack all right. Duck soup. My room is garbage soundwise, but will try the headphones / other player technique - hadn't considered that. Really want to get the Yairi nailed down. Thanks for all your help.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2016 17:56:21 GMT -6
Piezos, please shoot me, but they just suck soundwise. Maybe i am deaf, but to me as a non-guitar player, they always seem to distort as if they couldn't handle attack at all. Maybe i am the only one. They might come handy for live playing duties though. I know a guitarist who uses his acoustic in solos like a solidbody, full effects board. Cool somehow. But nothing like a mic'ed acoustic. Even a half decent mic might be able to bring up something much better. I already guerilla-recorded acoustic guitar in living room and bedroom with a M201, my clamp it on everything mic, improvise with bedsheets, paravents, furniture, whatever you have there. If you are alone, you can run around snapping fingers and handclapping, try another placement, sit down again, play and listen to the headphone. Everything is allowed to achieve a result you can live with... I heard good guitar tracks that were recorded between dining room and kitchen with a small Neumann LDC, i do not remember, but i guess it was a TLM103... If time is not the issue and you want to record at home, i am pretty sure you can get a more decent sound than a piezo, even without perfect equipment. But you have to try out a lot. OK, don't expect wonders, but if you try hard, you *might* get a better result than you thought and learn something about working with the equipment you already have ... getting skills this way can be fun... After all, if the performance is better at home ... why not. You might get a good demo quality. That said i know of a(n experienced pro) guitar duo that tracked a whole album at one guitarists house, home recording style. AFAIK mix was done in a studio. Sounds pretty good though. As far as i got it, they used a small modern Neumann LDC (TLM103? not sure, but i think he mentioned...) for almost everything, guitars and vocals. However, it worked pretty good. Sure - if you can, go into a pro recording studio. Often less expensive than upgrading the own equipment to the same level - and a good room...an engineer who knows his equipment and room....
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Post by Randge on Jul 6, 2016 19:24:14 GMT -6
Not without buying a Cole Clark guitar that has a 3 pickup system in them that sound fantastic.
R
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Post by Ward on Jul 6, 2016 20:32:05 GMT -6
Noting on Planet guitar ever sounded as bad as an Ovation!!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 7, 2016 6:27:13 GMT -6
Noting on Planet guitar ever sounded as bad as an Ovation!! The cheaper Applause version !
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Post by Ward on Jul 7, 2016 6:58:55 GMT -6
Nothing on Planet guitar ever sounded as bad as an Ovation!! The cheaper Applause version ! Oh yes, I forgot about those abominations!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2016 13:02:05 GMT -6
Just an update - got a reasonable recording from my kitchen, hadn't even thought of going there! Had to buy a laptop but it was worth it. Next time I will use that for all the acoustic stuff. Thanks for all your ideas and help.
Paddy
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 30, 2016 5:07:42 GMT -6
I remember my first flat in Berlin it sounded good by default. It got even better when I placed my back in the direction of a corner and I did use one KM 184 to pick up the guitar at about 50 cm away of the 12 fret pointing angled to the floor. Its worth to try different spots in your room things will change. If everything fails in home recording I love to use a dynamic with the Triton-Audio-Amp. I use reverb later. Better than nothing. I think learning how to mic a guitar never stops. I remember Randge teaching here the ribbon over shoulder technique - priceless.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 15, 2016 15:51:53 GMT -6
I've found one application in which a piezo doesn't really suck, but it's specialized. The LR Baggs Anthem systems employ an under saddle piezo and a PZM mic mounted under the bridge, with a dedicated crossover. Since the piezo only handles the lowest frequenciesa it doesn't quack - it's there so that the mic doesn't feed back uncontrollably in the low frequencies at stage volume. I Have the "LS" version (the one with the minimal control panel) in my '59 J-200 and it works quite well for live use - but I wouldn't really want to record with it unless it was a live performance recording and I had no choice. I use a mic (usually KM84, sonetimes C-12A or U87) in the studio.
I've never heard a full range piezo that didn't suck, though.
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