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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 8:04:09 GMT -6
I realize this horse is mostly dead but...
I am looking at a second set on monitors. I went from a mid forward/bright design to something more balanced with greater detail. As I have wondered about a 2nd set for a different reference point, I considered Mixcubes and NS10-M's to replace my computer speaker set.
I do want a mid range focused solution (the magic is in the midrange). The one thing I see in researching that NS-10M's provide above others is the low mid information, they are reputed to reveal low mid buildup. The Mixcubes and HS50's are not reputed to provide this. It seems to indicate a real strength in the NS-10m's but... they are old, aging and there parts availability/verifiable issues.
So... are they still the only great option for a mid focused reference? What do you do? What would you do today?
Thanks for sharing your experience.
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Post by svart on Nov 14, 2013 8:13:59 GMT -6
Older Auratones? Not much out there like the NS-10. If you want something that does exactly what you said, with the low mid thing, then the NS10 will work well. If you want all over midrange-only, then try the older auratones or some of the newer avantones.
EDIT: And as you alluded to, the NS10 can be a fickle beast with age. They are easy to blow up, they sound different from one another over the years and the quality has gone up and down over the years too. OEM replacement parts are harder to find and the generic replacement pieces are of dubious quality, both sound and mechanics. Try to find a perfectly working pair from at least the same time period and drive them with a high power amp. They need a hefty amp to work well, even if you don't plan on cranking them up, which you can't do because they'll blow up.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 14, 2013 8:32:29 GMT -6
I'm a huge fan of the NS10's. At Berklee, we had Genelec's, NS10's, and auratones in every room. The NS10's always translated the best for me. Genelecs were nice for doing some precision moves and hearing things clearly, but the NS10's always sounded more like a finished mix would sound outside. Personally, I didn't care for the Auratones. The NS10's took care of the "lo fi" sound well enough for me.
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Post by jazznoise on Nov 14, 2013 9:13:49 GMT -6
I'm a huge fan of the NS10's. At Berklee, we had Genelec's, NS10's, and auratones in every room. The NS10's always translated the best for me. Genelecs were nice for doing some precision moves and hearing things clearly, but the NS10's always sounded more like a finished mix would sound outside. Personally, I didn't care for the Auratones. The NS10's took care of the "lo fi" sound well enough for me. Genelec's are great, but I never found them to translate as well as other monitors. Glad I'm not the only ones. I've never used the NS10's, but I do find the HS50's do a decent job. Obviously just have to avoid making decisions regarding anything below 80hz on them. That's what my Sennheiser HD-25 Mk II's are for.
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Post by drmusic on Nov 14, 2013 9:57:00 GMT -6
Just listened to several of my NS10 mixes I did 2 years ago, and I was so surprised.. They sound great..
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Post by drmusic on Nov 14, 2013 9:58:19 GMT -6
Nuemann 120's I heard work the same way.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 12:08:02 GMT -6
Older Auratones? Not much out there like the NS-10. If you want something that does exactly what you said, with the low mid thing, then the NS10 will work well. If you want all over midrange-only, then try the older auratones or some of the newer avantones. EDIT: And as you alluded to, the NS10 can be a fickle beast with age. They are easy to blow up, they sound different from one another over the years and the quality has gone up and down over the years too. OEM replacement parts are harder to find and the generic replacement pieces are of dubious quality, both sound and mechanics. Try to find a perfectly working pair from at least the same time period and drive them with a high power amp. They need a hefty amp to work well, even if you don't plan on cranking them up, which you can't do because they'll blow up. I see you get by without them and see that you have the "Little Paper Cones" speakers. How would you describe them in comparison to the Avantones and NS10's?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 12:09:19 GMT -6
Amazing that there is no equivalent. Wow.
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Post by winetree on Nov 14, 2013 12:36:55 GMT -6
NS-10m and old auratones here powered by an Adcom GFA 545. Installed fuses on the ns-10 tweeters. At $120.00 each they're an expensive mistake if you fry them. I replaced the caps in the Xovers on the NS-10s with Daytons. Made a big difference in clarity, imaging and response.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 14:31:09 GMT -6
NS-10m and old auratones here powered by an Adcom GFA 545. Installed fuses on the ns-10 tweeters. At $120.00 each they're an expensive mistake if you fry them. I replaced the caps in the Xovers on the NS-10s with Daytons. Made a big difference in clarity, imaging and response. Could you do with aura tones what you do with ns10's?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 16:07:27 GMT -6
I'd say unless you're used to NS10s, don't get them.
They're old, discontinued and there are a slew of good products on the market.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 14, 2013 22:58:13 GMT -6
Amazing that there is no equivalent. Wow. I know. I don't think anybody knows for sure why they work so well. I had a laugh tonight at the AES recap. Carl Tatz showed a bunch of curves and ironically one of the flattest in the midrange were NS-10s sitting on a meter bridge!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2013 0:30:58 GMT -6
showed curves of what?
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Post by levon on Nov 15, 2013 4:12:37 GMT -6
It doesn't really matter which speakers once you get used them. I never really liked NS10s, I use a pair of old Auratones and I'm happy with them. You can mix on any set of speakers if you get to know them well. But it's always a good idea to have a low-fi option as a second choice.
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Post by cenafria on Nov 15, 2013 4:24:10 GMT -6
I believe monitor choice is a very personal decision. What works for certain engineers might not work for others. I've never had much luck with ns10s to tell the truth, but it could be the rooms they were in or the power amps or both. The way I see it, what I'm doing, basically, is listening to music all day long for years. Hopefully, my entire life. I had two choices: monitors that don't sound "good" but that, after "learning" how they respond, can be a useful tool for making records or speakers that sound good, are accurate and, the most important part for me, translate well/ not just flattering. A very important part of my choice comes from recording bands, many of which, are producing they're own records. I want what they hear in the control room after a take to sound good, I want them to be able to make decisions based on what they hear ("Ah, that sounds great, but we where thinking "fatter snare"...") and to hear the same mix they were hearing in the control room when they hear the mix at home. For me it was a bit of a tragedy to soffit mount the westlakes and after a few months realise that they sounded gorgeous, I could work on them comfortably (I had definitely learned their response) but they did not translate well. I eventually went back to a brand of transmission line hifi speakers i have used for years, but it was tough call to make after such a big investment.
Switching speakers is another common technique that I've never had much luck with, although I do occasionally switch to the MTR12's little mono speaker, but less than once per record.
I would say, try out NS10s for a while before you buy them. They might not be right for you.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 15, 2013 11:33:58 GMT -6
I don't agree that you can learn just any speaker. It really depends on the nature of its problems. I also don't think anybody really knows why some translate well while others don't or there would be a much wider variety in common use.
People often forget that a monitor speaker is the equivalent of a camera viewfinder. It's all about the quality of mix it produces as heard outside the mix room and not at all about what the mix sounds like in the monitor. Some monitors help you find and fix problems while others flatter what you hear leading to rude surprises elsewhere.
The NS-10 obviously from Carl's measurements has a pretty flat response with no dips but also virtually no low-end. Dips in response are what can make a speaker sound very flattering but utterly useless for mixing because of our hearing is dramatically insensitive to holes in the response. (This is also why "cut" eq. often translates better than "boost.") The combination of NS-10s on the meter bridge plus full range "mains" or headphones having plenty of low end simply have been found to do a very good job.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 15, 2013 12:15:38 GMT -6
^ with much trepidation, i have to disagree with Bob Ohlsson lol I listen to all my favorite music on my monitors in my room, i know them very well, i can hear the slightest diffs on them because i know them well. Proof positive to me was, I had been called out on the purple site a while back, and i crushed the challenge when i heard some very slight compression fraud going on, they moved the goal posts, and i was told it was an anomaly. Then the original poster of the subsequent "test", admitted that he manipulated the test in the way i had suggested, and after egging the whole thing on, a prominent Dr. poster said he felt sorry for me that i could hear that well??? Man i don't miss that place.. I'm certainly no B Ohlsson, but I believe an intimate understanding your specific monitors and what your favorite music/mixes sound like on them, in your known room, is all you really need. for anyone interested, here's that thread, i warn you though, this is the old me, i was piss and vinegar, i've since switched to decaf www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/845522-capi-vp28-op-amp-shootout.html
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Post by jazznoise on Nov 15, 2013 12:23:24 GMT -6
I don't agree that you can learn just any speaker. It really depends on the nature of its problems. I also don't think anybody really knows why some translate well while others don't or there would be a much wider variety in common use. Definitely agreeing with this point. One cannot learn to hear around masking caused by excessive ringing, or time domain smearing in general. I've seen the waterfall plots of some monitors. One of the big differences in many is that NS-10's respond to transients pretty linearly. There's no huge port resonance to create time domain artifacts and the air behind the speaker is small enough to present a relatively high impedance.
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Post by scumbum on Nov 15, 2013 14:39:39 GMT -6
I have NS10's and like them .
If a piece of recording gear becomes "classic" or "legendary"..........SM57 , 421 , 414 , U87 , Neve 1073 , 1176 , LA2A , API , NS10's.........theres a reason , they work really well !
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Post by scumbum on Nov 15, 2013 14:41:17 GMT -6
Oh yeah , what amp you use makes a HUUUUGGEEEE difference . You gotta use a good amp with NS10's or they will sound like crap .
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 15, 2013 15:21:06 GMT -6
Oh yeah , what amp you use makes a HUUUUGGEEEE difference . You gotta use a good amp with NS10's or they will sound like crap . what amp did you end up with scum?
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Post by scumbum on Nov 15, 2013 17:44:32 GMT -6
Oh yeah , what amp you use makes a HUUUUGGEEEE difference . You gotta use a good amp with NS10's or they will sound like crap . what amp did you end up with scum? My dad has a friend that fixes old tube radios as a hobby , so he actually fixed my amp for free ! Turns out that back in the 60's when the amp was made there was no standard electrical voltage for houses , not until I think the 80's . So the amp was originally made to run at 108 Volts (I think thats what he said) because lower voltage in homes was more common back then . Well after years of running way too hot it fried out some resistors and the tubes . So the guy fixed it and set it up to run at todays standard 120 voltage . So I'm using it until it blows up again , but the Adcom gfa 555 is on my to get list .
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2013 18:59:36 GMT -6
Well, I just learned that the tweeters in the studio version have a white ring under the grill and that the "not as good" pro/whatever versions do not.
Any other buying tips? If I am going to do it, and I think I am, please give me any tips that will help make it a good purchase. I have the amp side covered.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2013 19:33:08 GMT -6
As for NS-10m and Adcom Amps - a great combination. A friend of mine had the combination with Adcom 545 running in his electro-/synthesizer studio. In terms of showing up weaknesses in the mix it instantly reminded me of my K+H monitors. Minus bass. Some good crappy monitors, ideal for mixing and good translation. But prices on these are kind of silly high in the meantime, considering the age and bad condition of many of them that hit the used gear markets.... Has anyone of you compared the originals to the HS50M (discontinued in the meantime) or the new H5? I heard mixed opinions about the newer models, but i do not get how much of this is "myth" kind of babble surrounding the NS-10m, and i hadn't chance to compare these yet... Best regards, Martin
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2013 22:21:57 GMT -6
I'd like to know as well. I did see one studio using them and have "read" that they don't have the low mid build-up microscope.
However, I love to know if someone here has compared them.
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