|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 7, 2016 9:22:14 GMT -6
ChaseUTB said, "With the Transformers being inserted, is there supposed to be that big of a difference hearing the effect.?
Chase, in the video, he mentioned that he's cranking the transformer all the way just for the demonstration, and that he usually sets it at around 10:00.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 7, 2016 10:10:29 GMT -6
I can answer the DA question. The Dbox is better than both the SF and the Blackface...although, the Blackface is super close. I love my D-box. I have a blackface Apollo and use it as DA and route out 4 stereo channels to the summing mixer. Print that into PTs/Cubase and then add mastering and print back through again. JK, you sum 4 stereo pairs through the DBox and print in to daw then you add your mastering chain BEFORE you send a stereo mix back out to the DBox and capture it again? Is that right? I print the mix down to a stereo mix. Then add mastering to that channel, go back out to the Dbox summer and then print back in the final mix. Then Export that without using PT/Cubase summing. There's always the chance I'm doing stuff wrong, though lol ? I'm open to suggestions...
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 7, 2016 10:15:13 GMT -6
There is a subtle sound quality that can only be achieved with hardware, and you'd know it if you heard it. I think if you A) mix hybrid with a lot of hardware processors and B) sum on a console or a summing mixer, you are just going to get a lot closer to a "certain" sound, almost automatically, not from any effort on your part, just by virtue of running through so much physical gear. I think the big question is if it is worth the expense and effort, because ITB mixing is 100X cheaper and more compact. It's a huge effort for a small return. Maybe some guys are looking for that extra 5% or whatever. Hell, maybe it's even 10% better to use hardware. Some types of music don't really even need to sound like "that." It just depends on your goals. For me, an album like "In Rainbows" or "Sea Change" exemplifies the sound of modern hardware mixdown. These are reference standards for me, and for this reason I will be adding to my hardware complement, not reducing it. But I will say ITB mixing sounds fine and don't lose any sleep over it. To me the big hardware rig is sort of a connoisseur thing, or a labor of love. By far the most important differentiating factor is the person sitting in front of the controls. Yeah - it's a tough decision. It's subtle - 95% of the population couldn't care less - but we all know what we're talking about. I'd love to have the 2-bus +, but 75% of my stuff is fake drum demos...the other 25% I send off to someone that knows what they're doing to mix lol. So...
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 7, 2016 10:17:20 GMT -6
Thanks for the responses Ryan! Got a few questions. What's the total cost of your system? Are you using HD software or Protools vanilla? I see they're usb interfaces, how did you configure your converters in protools? Hi Joey. Retail cost breaks down as follows: 2 x Convert8 @ $3500 each = $7000 Convert2 @ $2500 2Bus+ @ $3000 Monitor ST @ $2000 Apogee Trak2 can be had on Ebay @ $900 Cabling @ approx. $800 Total less tax/shipping $16,200 I'm running PT HD 11 and the converters use Core Audio to communicate which has a 32 I/O limitation. Not the best option but it works for me. Protools I/O preferences have to be set to "aggregate I/O" which is fairly seamless. My Hosa cables were a lot cheaper than that... I keed
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 7, 2016 10:22:12 GMT -6
I'm very interested in summing mixers in general. I've heard tracks done with and without a D-Box, and every time, the D-Box mix was better. I've also used a Burl D/A, and loved that too. If given the choice, what would you guys prefer, the complete Dangerous Music system, or a complete Burl system? Step by step, I can see myself going this way in time. My first priority after paying my rent is to get a Neve style pre soon. I'm interested in the RTZ 500 series. Man, that's tough, but IMHO, I would go the dangerous route. I just feel like you can add transformer warmth and color during the mix. I thought the Dbox gave me more headroom, bigger stereo separation and fantastic DA - for $1000 used. I'd love to have the 2-Bus+, but see above...maybe at some point. The Dbox DA is really, really great. I can only imagine how good the new stuff is. I'm a Dangerous believer after using the Dbox. BTW, they have a 2 channel DA that is the same price as the Burl DA.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 7, 2016 11:23:01 GMT -6
There was a rave review in Sound On Sound last month. The reviewer was very familiar with Dangerous gear and knew a lot about converters. Sometimes you read between the lines in those kinds of articles, and you can sense the reviewer really loved it.
There's no reason for it, but I see the Dangerous gear as something the independent professional writer/producer/artist can be comfortable with. It makes no sense, but I see the Burl's in a dedicated studio with a Mothership.
|
|
|
Post by joey808 on Jul 7, 2016 16:42:56 GMT -6
Thanks Ryan! Appreciate the info.
The Avid core audio driver not working in Protools 12 is a huge problem, does not look like it will be resolved anytime soon.
|
|
|
Post by nobtwiddler on Jul 7, 2016 17:28:30 GMT -6
I bought a Dangerous 2Bus + a few months ago, for all the un-attended mixes I do.
Since then I have mixed a few albums, and 3 EP's thru it. There's a lot of stuff in front, but the unit itself is simple, and sounds great. Clients love the mixes. What more can you ask for. So far so good.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jul 7, 2016 18:54:01 GMT -6
You are not helping my gear lust.
|
|
|
Post by mikec on Jul 8, 2016 6:37:38 GMT -6
I've got the 2bus+ and D box summing 24 tracks from an Apollo 16 and Apollo 8p and I am finally in a place where I don't feel I am missing out on anything. The other night I was working on a mix and thought it sounded a little harsh. Then realized I was monitoring direct from the daw and not through the 2 Bus+ and D box. Once I hit the analog button on the D box it was a significant difference. I am a big believer in the sound provided by these boxes. Can you help me understand a bit? Do you print your mixes to tape or to DAW? Are you on a console ? Isn't the analog path in the d box different from the "sum" path and daw ? How does listening to the analog path help the mix? If Listening via analog feed, summing via 2bus+ & d box back to DAW, wouldn't you want to monitor the DAW to know/ hear your mixprint using the fabulous dangerous d/a converter? From my knowledge, The analog button is your analog feed from the Apollo Mon L/R into the d box analog inputs, which lets you monitor Conosle in real time for tracking / overdubs late in mix stage! I never really wrapped my head around the 2bus + with D box summing setup, however from the Apollo + d box vids I'm pretty sure monitoring the Daw would be the best via D box due to the great d/a converter! Do you always sum your mixes? What does the summing do for your sound? Have you been able to pick your summed mixes vs non summed mixes reliably and if so what parts of the music let you key in on how the summing helped? For me, summing would be a very expensive investment, and I would want to reliably know my summed mixes are better. I know some don't believe it worth it, however I am here to learn and am open minded regarding summing. I have been wondering how good the d box da is compared to SF Apollo, or how much improvement would be yielded by upgrading my DA vs my Apollo DA... The way I have my system set up with the 2 Bus+ linked to the D-Box, when I have the analog button on the D-Box engaged I am hearing the summed mix with all of the goodness of the Harmonics, Paralimit, and x-former. It also lets me easily patch in my Rs124s via the ext insert button on the 2 Bus+. The digital out from the blackface Apollo 16 is connected to the daw input on the D-Box so I can also monitor the direct daw output through the D-Box. When I am ready to print the mix, I print the summed output back to a stereo track in the Daw. I can't really say I can hear much of a difference when monitoring from the blackface apollo 16 vs the D-Box. I hear a significant difference when monitoring the mix that has been summed through the 2Bus+ via the D-Box. I think where your confusion above may be is that because I have the D-Box linked to the 2Bus+, I don't use the summing button on the D Box for my summed mix, in my set up it is the analog button that engages the summed mix.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Jul 8, 2016 8:13:30 GMT -6
I don't know if all summing mixers work this way, but mine gives me way more headroom in the DAW. Instead of dealing with a 0 dBFS digital master bus, you can run every single channel output fader up to 0 dBFS and then there's all this analog headroom in the summing mixer that can easily take the higher levels before the stereo return to the ADC. The digital bus would have been screaming for mercy at this point. It's not a big deal but it is a technical difference.
I did a blind shootout on the purple site and everyone unanimously preferred my analog summed mixes over the ITB one. I guess that says something for it. My laziness keeps me from doing it on every mix, even though I probably should.
|
|
|
Post by ryanwestmusic on Jul 9, 2016 21:50:59 GMT -6
Hi Joey. Retail cost breaks down as follows: 2 x Convert8 @ $3500 each = $7000 Convert2 @ $2500 2Bus+ @ $3000 Monitor ST @ $2000 Apogee Trak2 can be had on Ebay @ $900 Cabling @ approx. $800 Total less tax/shipping $16,200 I'm running PT HD 11 and the converters use Core Audio to communicate which has a 32 I/O limitation. Not the best option but it works for me. Protools I/O preferences have to be set to "aggregate I/O" which is fairly seamless. Do you have a "home base" studio that you work out of? What kind of outboard are you running...or are you mainly ITB and just running the summing mixers? That's my "home/travel" rig. I often work out of Flux Studios here in NYC which has an identical system. I've chosen not to employ hardware any more for mixing. Just great converters and summing. It's freeing! Try it! :-)
|
|
|
Post by ryanwestmusic on Jul 9, 2016 21:52:59 GMT -6
I'm very interested in summing mixers in general. I've heard tracks done with and without a D-Box, and every time, the D-Box mix was better. I've also used a Burl D/A, and loved that too. If given the choice, what would you guys prefer, the complete Dangerous Music system, or a complete Burl system? Step by step, I can see myself going this way in time. My first priority after paying my rent is to get a Neve style pre soon. I'm interested in the RTZ 500 series. Hi Martin. The Burl stuff is very nice, but I chose Dangerous for a reason. Burl has it's own sound, which is quite nice. However, I prefer the solid, neutral punch of the Dangerous gear. My entire rig except for the A/D is Dangerous.
|
|
|
Post by ryanwestmusic on Jul 9, 2016 21:57:40 GMT -6
I don't know if all summing mixers work this way, but mine gives me way more headroom in the DAW. Instead of dealing with a 0 dBFS digital master bus, you can run every single channel output fader up to 0 dBFS and then there's all this analog headroom in the summing mixer that can easily take the higher levels before the stereo return to the ADC. The digital bus would have been screaming for mercy at this point. It's not a big deal but it is a technical difference. I did a blind shootout on the purple site and everyone unanimously preferred my analog summed mixes over the ITB one. I guess that says something for it. My laziness keeps me from doing it on every mix, even though I probably should. Spot on, Monkeyxx. I found the same.
|
|
|
Post by joey808 on Jul 9, 2016 22:50:21 GMT -6
Do you have a "home base" studio that you work out of? What kind of outboard are you running...or are you mainly ITB and just running the summing mixers? That's my "home/travel" rig. I often work out of Flux Studios here in NYC which has an identical system. I've chosen not to employ hardware any more for mixing. Just great converters and summing. It's freeing! Try it! :-)Hi Ryan Hi Ryan, Thanks for the feedback! Im also going that route, keeping things really simple in the mix process. I decided to get a 2bus+ and start with that, right now I cant afford the converters, we'll see what the future brings. How are you routing your audio into the 2bus+? trying to get some ideas. Thanks..
|
|
|
Post by ryanwestmusic on Jul 10, 2016 11:08:58 GMT -6
Hi Ryan, Thanks for the feedback! Im also going that route, keeping things really simple in the mix process. I decided to get a 2bus+ and start with that, right now I cant afford the converters, we'll see what the future brings. How are you routing your audio into the 2bus+? trying to get some ideas. Thanks.. The 2BUs+ is fed by 16 channels of Convert8 converters. What converters are you using now?
|
|
|
Post by joey808 on Jul 10, 2016 18:27:36 GMT -6
I have the Avid HD I/O 16.
Even if I wanted to use the convert 8 I couldn't use them with ProTools 12, Avid core audio driver is broken and doesn't work with 3rd party interfaces.
Sorry for not being clear on the routing question, are you just summing your music busses, Drums Bass Keys, etc? Or do you have a certain way you do it with your setup?
|
|
|
Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 11, 2016 5:47:43 GMT -6
I have the Avid HD I/O 16. Even if I wanted to use the convert 8 I couldn't use them with ProTools 12, Avid core audio driver is broken and doesn't work with 3rd party interfaces. Sorry for not being clear on the routing question, are you just summing your music busses, Drums Bass Keys, etc? Or do you have a certain way you do it with your setup? I use ProTools 12 / 10 with the universal audio Apollo SF via FireWire every day. I also have full control of the OS X audio, as well as Safari and iTunes and or whatever audio app that audio level/ playback is required/ needed. Avid made PT 9 unchained from their HW, and PT has not been tied to HW, aside from the 32i/o limitation. If avid core audio driver was truly broken there would be 1000's of threads and comments regarding the issue b/c ppl love to post avid/ pt problems I am not saying that you are not experiencing issues with your set up obviously you are maybe it's another part of the system!. Have a good day
|
|
|
Post by ryanwestmusic on Jul 11, 2016 6:59:17 GMT -6
I have the Avid HD I/O 16. Even if I wanted to use the convert 8 I couldn't use them with ProTools 12, Avid core audio driver is broken and doesn't work with 3rd party interfaces. Sorry for not being clear on the routing question, are you just summing your music busses, Drums Bass Keys, etc? Or do you have a certain way you do it with your setup? Hey Joey, I often split things up differently, but a lot of my mixes have common practices. 1/2 - Vox 3/4 - keys 5/6 - guitars 7/8 - snare/claps/perc 9 - mono bass 10 - mono kicks 11/12 - MISC 13-14 - anything I may want to add harmonics to 15/16 - drums except kicks (and sometimes minus snare/claps/perc. This is where I apply the paralimiter if I think it works)
|
|
|
Post by ryanwestmusic on Jul 11, 2016 7:00:19 GMT -6
I use ProTools 12 / 10 with the universal audio Apollo SF via FireWire every day. I also have full control of the OS X audio, as well as Safari and iTunes and or whatever audio app that audio level/ playback is required/ needed. Avid made PT 9 unchained from their HW, and PT has not been tied to HW, aside from the 32i/o limitation. If avid core audio driver was truly broken there would be 1000's of threads and comments regarding the issue b/c ppl love to post avid/ pt problems I am not saying that you are not experiencing issues with your set up obviously you are maybe it's another part of the system!. Have a good day Good to know, Chase.
|
|