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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 10, 2016 16:55:33 GMT -6
It may come to that Eric. I've thought of redoing all my tracks with a band in Nashville. I think it would take 2-4 days tops. It depends on where I'm at in the fall. As time passes, tracks done a year or two back sometimes get stale. It'll work itself out this year, one way or the other.
it's just a little confusing at the moment Jake, I'll work it out. It's the trying not to spend any or much more money that's slowing me down. I know exactly what I'd do, given 3G's extra.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 10, 2016 17:03:40 GMT -6
Hey Martin, if you want some real drums on a track, send me an mp3 with no programmed drums and two lead bars of click and I'll look after it for you as a birthday present let me know bit and sample rate !
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 10, 2016 17:05:35 GMT -6
Hey, thanks Matt. I'll send you an email in a little while.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 10, 2016 17:57:46 GMT -6
Thanks Matt, as soon as I figure out how to pay the bills this summer, (my business withers all summer long), I'll get back on that. The last experience helped me get closer to my goal. I had a lot of help. M57 played organ, Henge played bass, Sammy Merendino drums, and my friend Jon Bendis on electric guitar. Jon's been with Roseanne Cash, Don Henley, and Neil Young among others. So the vibe those guys brought helped the track come to life, that and the tasty Soyuz 0-17. I do hope to reach out more now Yotonic, and despite the gear lust, part of the idea of this thread is that I want to get off the gear merry-go-round for a while soon. I just want to settle the "do I need a different mic or a different pre" issue. The rest can wait, for now. Don't forget that sweet mastering.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 10, 2016 18:09:10 GMT -6
Not for a minute Jesse, sorry I missed the shoutout. I was so busy thinking of the musicians on that track.
Guys, Jcoutou1 mastered my song, "Long Road Back". It will hopefully become a video that will raise money and awareness for veterans. I have some personal connections there. The difference the mastering made shouldn't be minimized. In my quest to sound "right", I had failed to take real deal mastering into account. I think a big part of that track becoming what it is was is because of Jesse's mastering. The improvement wasn't small.
Might as well take a little break from the discussion, here's the track I've been mentioning, the only one I've been truly satisfied with. The acoustic guitar and vocal was done here, that's the Soyuz 0-19 through the D4 to Apollo, no printed compression or EQ, just some plugins when mixing.
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/long-road-back-master
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Post by yotonic on Jun 10, 2016 18:23:24 GMT -6
That's the problem with living in New York Martin. You've lost your damn mind. The song sounds great. It won't get any better without more human beings contributing bits of their souls to it. Maybe a backing vocal or some other players to add color. A piece of gear won't help.
I like your Gordon Lightfoot meets Mark Knopfler vocal. It doesn't need a Neve, just an acoustic guitar and a rhythm section.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 10, 2016 18:35:37 GMT -6
Hadn't thought of Gordon Lightfoot, but what's not to like about sounding a little like that. Thanks Yotonic.
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Post by yotonic on Jun 10, 2016 19:05:40 GMT -6
i like your voice. Listen to some Chrissie Hynde in your spare time maybe learn some covers by her. Something tells me that could add some really cool color to your palette. "I'll Stand By You" was in the back of my mind listening to your track. She has such a wonderful ability to merge melody with a poignant, Lou Reed swagger to her song writing. She has such a singular style that blends Rock, folk, and punk.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 10, 2016 20:13:02 GMT -6
Thanks for the suggestion Yotonic., I'll try that just for fun, why not. Funny, my wife is from Ohio. She's a yoga instructor and reflexologist now. She had a band in the 90's called The Pleasure Bombs. They were signed to Atlantic Records and produced by Tony Visconti. She left the music business. She sounds a lot like Grace Slick and a lot like Chrissie Hynde too. Our voices blend beautifully.
I think as I've grown older and evolved as an artist, i've left some of the grit of my days as a NY Punk behind. Maybe a little touch of that might do me some good. I'm strong, but was beaten down by so many heavy things, a swagger just wasn't there anymore.
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Post by wiz on Jun 10, 2016 20:50:32 GMT -6
Verse
I think as I've grown older and evolved I've left some of the grit behind Maybe a little touch of that might do me some good. I am trying for matter over mind. Chorus I'm strong, but beaten down by so heavy things....the swagger just isn't there anymore. I'm strong, but beaten down by so many things....the swagger just isn't there anymore. I re wrote, what you wrote... makes a great verse and chorus cheers Wiz
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 10, 2016 21:01:47 GMT -6
Thanks Wiz, great stuff, and food for thought.. hmm.. maybe if I write it, you'll sing it?
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Post by stratboy on Jun 10, 2016 21:07:23 GMT -6
If you want a channel strip, Martin, take a look at the Aurora Audio. There is virtue in simplicity and limiting choices. I am a sinner and my wallet shows it. Great sounding recording, BTW. I wouldn't obsess if I were you.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 10, 2016 22:54:44 GMT -6
Thanks Stratboy. I'm calming down a bit now. I think it's mostly that mic that got under my skin. It gave me confidence and inspired me to feel the song more.
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Post by iamasound on Jun 11, 2016 1:08:32 GMT -6
I have listened to Long Road Back a number of times now. A great song, a fantastic guitar and vocal sound. I could only suggest doing what you need do to have the Soyuz mics and whatever pre that you used during the creation of this song and be forever blissful, creative and prosperous in the inspiration that this sweet package obviously offers to you. Honor the muse, drag her not by her offered and willing hand this way and that lest she be scorned and withdraws. A sense of completion is a very comfortable nest to sleep in at night.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 11, 2016 5:56:02 GMT -6
Yeah Martin, I agree with the above. Get yourself a part time job at a Starbucks or something over the summer while the kids are gone, pinch some pennies, sell your mic and eq, and pounce on a used Soyuz when one comes up. It's not even about which mic sounds better at this point, it's that you're inspired by the look and allure of the Soyuz, and that's totally valid. A lot of different things converge to set the mood when recording and that mic gets you fired up. Go for the gold (and white).
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 11, 2016 6:45:43 GMT -6
My question is, would I be better off just buying something the the Chandler TG Microphone cassette, and be done with it all as far as home demos go, rather than stress over details like which iteration of 1176 is best, or do I want an LA2A or Sta Level, API or Neve pre, or REDD 47, and on and on? It has a preamp, opto compressor and EQ in one piece for $2800. I'm thinking out loud here, and wonder if I've made a wrong turn and have gone so far down that road, I don't know how to get back, or just won't go back. When I slowly stepped back into the arena four years ago, I had never used a DAW myself, didn't know what a plugin was, and had only recorded analogue at home before. I'd sold all I owned to cover medical bills years earlier. Besides having worked at major studios often, I had a decade of experience with a home studio that was simple, but effective. I had 8 track to 2 track tape, with a Yamaha mixer, lexicon reverbs and delays, DBX 160 compressors, Neumann U87's, and a patchbay for tracking. I guess they're considered "classics" now. There was never any issues getting things done like vocals to "sit" in a track, or bass to be tight, they just were, and it was easy. So, on my first digital day, I tried an Apogee Duet, and I thought it sucked, dead and deader if you ask me. I returned it, and bought what was then a brand new thing, the UAD Apollo. That opened a door to online gear information sharing and a community of new friends, who happened to be damn good musicians too. Oh, and lets not forget the seriously seductive world of plugin acquisition. Back in the days when I had my home studio, I basically was able to walk into a store and write a check for all the gear I wanted, which I did. I was tracking the next day, and never needed to spend more than 15 minutes online or in a manual to figure it out, it was all so easily put together. Really, not a single minute was spent in ten years deciding what piece of gear I needed to get it right, it was right from the get go. It might be simply because it was analogue, or just a great mic doing what it does, I don't know, but I wrote and produced at least 100 local radio and tv commercials spots there. I still did the big jobs in high end studios.
So, I've been chasing that vibe since I got here, trying to cobble a system together I could live with. The DAW affords me the convenience I need to come back time and again to the same place, so I won't go back totally analogue. Currently, I have the Apollo Duo, the Dizengoff D4 preamp, the WA76 compressor and the Warm EQP-1A. I hope to get the WA2A at some point. The issue is simple in a way. I don't have the upfront money to get it right the first time, today, I'd guess that takes around $12,000 (for me, anyway). Would I be better off getting something like a channel strip, (it could be a Manley, or Chandler, or Heritage, whatever), and maybe a Stam SSL compressor for final mixes, or continue as I've been, changing out pieces, trying to shuffle the deck to get the right cards in the right order. I know there's no easy or "right" answer, I'm just curious what you guys think of all the time we've spent chasing the audio dream, have we been avoiding getting to the music all along, or has it helped you make the music become real. Buy yourself some of the old gear. DBX s a Mackie etc. Limit your choices and it will be easy again.Today there are too many choices the market is over saturated with plug ins and bull-shit. When I listen to my old Tascam 4 Track Band-Demos there was a vibe, and that is because we had no choices. We had to make it work with the music. Believe me Martin you overthink it. Some of the plug ins are great but the majority is still not so great. Its a long time consuming search to find the right ones and than mixing pure ITB is still feeling like BULL SHIT. Stop thinking too much buy some real gear and write songs. The internet helps us to overthink it, an information overkill sets in. Stop yourself from googling every tiny hint.
In your case I would not invest everything in one high end preamp. Split it: The ART PRO MPA for example. DBX 160s ART Pro VLA A Cheap Mackie VLZ Some Cheap DBX Compresors A used Reverb 500 and a Midiverb II Some cables. If you miss I/O one Behringer ADA 8000 Its low end gear but 1 Million time better than what we had 24 years ago - a shit Tascam Cassette 4 Track Recorder. Once again. Limit you choices and start to make music. It will be easy again with some real gear....
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Post by mikec on Jun 11, 2016 6:47:20 GMT -6
Hey Martin, I know where you are coming from with regards to the hunt for the perfect gear set up and specifically the Soyuz mic. I've kind of been doing the same thing over the past couple of years as I build up my system so everything is bought and paid for as I get closer to being able to walk away from my corporate job and follow my passion. In reading your posts I know how the Soyuz 017 haunts you. I will agree with you that it is the real deal, if it fits your voice. I've now used mine through three different pre amp setups and it sounds great through all of them, retro powerstrip, A designs pacifica, and my newly acquired Redd 47, Rs124 combo. For ballad type music I like the sound of my own voice through the Soyuz better than anything else I've been fortunate enough to use. I also have a Perlman TM-250 with Tim's capsule in it and I really like it for more rockin type vocals. My wife also enjoys getting behind the mic once in a while and with her there is no comparison. With the Soyuz mic she sounds the best I've ever heard her sound. I've got some other people I record occasionally and I'm really looking forward to getting them back in my studio when time permits, but I finally feel like I've gotten off the microphone merry go round now that I have the 017 and TM250. So, back to your original post, after going through what you are going through, I finally feel like now I have the analog gear that meets my needs and will out live me. It doesn't mean there will not be a new shiny object I will lust after, but I now feel confident that the gear I have is up to any capability I will ever have.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 11, 2016 7:43:28 GMT -6
Great posts all, thanks guys. I mean it, our dialogue is helping me begin to see things more clearly. I know some of you have experienced or are experiencing the same things I've been.
I've had phases in my life where I became part of a subculture. One interest led to another and I became adept in art & design, then became a wine aficionado, then a biker. Each interest led to a crossroads, where I had to decide to make a career of these interests, or move on. Today, I've forgotten 90% of the information that seemed important then. I could hold my own with world class designers and architects, chat with second growth chateau owners and trade people about the terroir of obscure regions, rode with a big bike club and was asked to become president, and there's more.
Having recorded in studios since I was 17, I've always had an interest in making the best recording I could, wherever I was. After a few albums, I became a writer/producer of music for radio and TV, setting up the nice home studio I mentioned before. One of the differences between now and then, is I didn't have quite as big a gear lust. I figured out what was considered professional level gear when I started recording at home, and bought that, but after the initial purchase, I mainly just used it for a decade and only slowly did I make a few obvious upgrades, adding an extra reverb, buying a better amp for my monitors, or a better midi-controller, etc..
So, if I stepped back, I've once again become immersed in a welcoming subculture. Musicians, writers, engineers and manufacturers converge in this interesting and helpful place John calls Real Gear.
I suppose part of my reason for this post is to call myself out and open myself up to redefining my goals. I've been unable to see the forest for the trees for quite some time now.
I've figured out some of what I needed to. From now on, songs will be considered demos, and I'll move on faster. If I want to release them, I will get real drums and mastering. If money permits, I'll take the logical next step, and get back to working with other talented musicians in the same room again, and see if I've still got what it takes.
I've also hoped our coversation here might open up some space for some of the incredible musicians and recording arts pros I've so enjoyed getting to know here.
And Mike, you've basically hit that one nail on the head. I know what I need to do, and will find a way. Meanwhile, I'll try not to let the gear I don't yet have stop me from moving forward with confidence.
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Post by john on Jun 11, 2016 9:42:47 GMT -6
One man band here as well. I too have considered selling the whole boat (8 mixing signal paths, 3-4 years of buying, close to 10k) in order to buy a zener, a curvebender and the tg pair of preamps and just be done with it. This would give me stereo tracking as well as stereo bus capability. I've had several people talk me out of it but I must admit the gas still lingers. This was prior to the microphone cassette release so maybe now I'll just try to add that to the fold and be able to see how compatible that sound is with me before i narrow it down to one channel strip. I LOVE mixing on my 8 channels but I'd eventually like to track through one strip and not have much to do in the mix other than get levels and fx.
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Post by drbill on Jun 11, 2016 10:36:29 GMT -6
Martin - I hear ya. The main difference between "then and now"....
Then - there were exponentially fewer choices, so making a decision was exponentially easier and you spent less time doing it. Then - there was no internet. Or just the beginnings. No people telling you over and over and over that there's something better, faster, louder, more appealing. Then - as you mentioned, you bought your gear and went to work. No time wasting surfing forums.
Now - there's dozens of forums, tens of thousands of banner adds thousands of pro audio companies, tens of thousands of "great", "greater", "must have" products. Now - there someone to tell you at every turn that what you bought is not as good as it can be. (BTW, neither was your old gear years ago, but you didn't know it at the time..) Now - There are too many options, too much time spent exploring them, and too much money spent on stuff you don't use.
Musicians have NOTORIOUSLY been stuck in the : "I can't do my project until I get a new guitar....new mixer....new reverb....new amp....new fill in the blank." It never changes. There's just more reasons these days to wait and delay production, writing, vocals, practice, etc..
So my advice? Forget all of it. Get off forums. Get back to producing music. You have EVERYTHING YOU NEED. Incredible classic albums have been made on far inferior equipment to what you already own. If forums are distracting you, ditch em. Make music. Listen to your inner voice instead of the dozens of anonymous internet voices telling you to "buy" cause your gear is inferior. Don't wait a single minute for that thing that's going to "help" you make music. Only YOU can help you make music.
So what if your vocal sound could have been inches better? You have MILES to go to achieve your goals. Inches don't matter. Forward movement DOES matter. Forget the new gear. Make music with what you have. When something is coming up short or failing you, thats when you know you need to pull out and take a look for something better. Until then....make music. The coolest musical ideas come from not having the "right" piece of gear IMO. Finding solutions for studio and instrument shortcomings make for interesting and unique movement.
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Post by LesC on Jun 11, 2016 11:49:28 GMT -6
Wow, I agree 100% with drbill, is there a self-help group for that?
Over the last little while, I've started simplifying my setup. I had so many options to do things that I ended up doing nothing. For interfaces/converters I have a UFX, a Svartbox DA-AD, a Dangerous Source DA/monitor controller, and as my first step to simplification I sold my Burl AD. As soon as Metric Halo's USB/Windows interfaces are out (if ever), I'm going to get an MH LIO-8 and sell the UFX, Svartbox, and Source. One box, no choices, no endless loopbacks to see what's best in each particular situation, it's going to make my life much easier. I get so little time to enjoy making music, I really need to get over the constant second-guessing.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 11, 2016 12:26:56 GMT -6
Thanks John, drbil, lesC, mikec, mrholmes, Wiz, Yotonic, Jcoutou,iamasound, kcat, all of you. This is one of the reasons I started this thread. I had a strong feeling I wasn't alone. It may take time to process all that's being said here, but believe me, I'm taking much of this to heart and will make some changes soon.
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Post by geoff738 on Jun 11, 2016 12:46:33 GMT -6
Martin, I'm sure you're very aware of the irony of posting on this forum. But I said this to John in a rare moment when he was questioning his gear obsession - you're a songwriter, you make your living writing songs. Buying and reselling the Burl (Sta, etc.) three or four times doesn't seem all that productive to me. You've got good gear. Use it, make music. And really, the same advice applies here. Mind you, I'm not exactly great at heeding my own advice at times either. There is something seductive about searching out shiny new toys, er, uh tools, for our studios. Chasing that last little bit of sonic improvement that we are searching for is kinda addictive. But, can anybody else hear it? Or hears it the same way you do? Does it even matter? Is the money and time better spent on real studios for drum tracking, mastering etc. A vacation for you and the missus? I guess I'm basically saying what many of the above posts have already said - searching for new and improved gear can be fun, but when it becomes the grail and starts leaning toward obsession rather than using what you have to its fullest? Again, if you're feeling that there is something seriously lacking that a piece of gear could fix, then sure. But maybe it's your monitoring or the acoustics in your apartment or feeling self conscious or worried about the neighbors listening or complaining about the noise or whatever. The stuff you post here sounds good. Keep banging the hammer! Cheers, Geoff
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Post by iamasound on Jun 11, 2016 12:57:15 GMT -6
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 11, 2016 17:14:36 GMT -6
Thanks for the thoughtful posts guys. Iamasound's post made me think I'm also on about prioritizing and focus. The gear thing can be so seductive and seems forever out of reach sometimes. I've been hoping to reach a certain plateau, one where I use what I have for a long time, making only small changes, and focusing on music and getting it to people. I'm trying to see just where that plateau is, and if I can actually get there, hence my thinking about a channel strip possibly being a saner choice for my uses.
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