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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 10, 2016 9:17:40 GMT -6
My question is, would I be better off just buying something the the Chandler TG Microphone cassette, and be done with it all as far as home demos go, rather than stress over details like which iteration of 1176 is best, or do I want an LA2A or Sta Level, API or Neve pre, or REDD 47, and on and on? It has a preamp, opto compressor and EQ in one piece for $2800. I'm thinking out loud here, and wonder if I've made a wrong turn and have gone so far down that road, I don't know how to get back, or just won't go back.
When I slowly stepped back into the arena four years ago, I had never used a DAW myself, didn't know what a plugin was, and had only recorded analogue at home before. I'd sold all I owned to cover medical bills years earlier. Besides having worked at major studios often, I had a decade of experience with a home studio that was simple, but effective. I had 8 track to 2 track tape, with a Yamaha mixer, lexicon reverbs and delays, DBX 160 compressors, Neumann U87's, and a patchbay for tracking. I guess they're considered "classics" now. There was never any issues getting things done like vocals to "sit" in a track, or bass to be tight, they just were, and it was easy.
So, on my first digital day, I tried an Apogee Duet, and I thought it sucked, dead and deader if you ask me. I returned it, and bought what was then a brand new thing, the UAD Apollo. That opened a door to online gear information sharing and a community of new friends, who happened to be damn good musicians too. Oh, and lets not forget the seriously seductive world of plugin acquisition.
Back in the days when I had my home studio, I basically was able to walk into a store and write a check for all the gear I wanted, which I did. I was tracking the next day, and never needed to spend more than 15 minutes online or in a manual to figure it out, it was all so easily put together. Really, not a single minute was spent in ten years deciding what piece of gear I needed to get it right, it was right from the get go. It might be simply because it was analogue, or just a great mic doing what it does, I don't know, but I wrote and produced at least 100 local radio and tv commercials spots there. I still did the big jobs in high end studios.
So, I've been chasing that vibe since I got here, trying to cobble a system together I could live with. The DAW affords me the convenience I need to come back time and again to the same place, so I won't go back totally analogue. Currently, I have the Apollo Duo, the Dizengoff D4 preamp, the WA76 compressor and the Warm EQP-1A. I hope to get the WA2A at some point.
The issue is simple in a way. I don't have the upfront money to get it right the first time, today, I'd guess that takes around $12,000 (for me, anyway). Would I be better off getting something like a channel strip, (it could be a Manley, or Chandler, or Heritage, whatever), and maybe a Stam SSL compressor for final mixes, or continue as I've been, changing out pieces, trying to shuffle the deck to get the right cards in the right order.
I know there's no easy or "right" answer, I'm just curious what you guys think of all the time we've spent chasing the audio dream, have we been avoiding getting to the music all along, or has it helped you make the music become real.
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Post by timcampbell on Jun 10, 2016 9:27:26 GMT -6
 Hey Martin I know what you mean. I use one of these at home. Plug any good mic into it and it sounds like a record and many of the tracks I've done with it have ended up on product. |
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Post by matt on Jun 10, 2016 10:40:41 GMT -6
My question is, would I be better off just buying something the the Chandler TG Microphone cassette, and be done with it all as far as home demos go, rather than stress over details like which iteration of 1176 is best, or do I want an LA2A or Sta Level, API or Neve pre, or REDD 47, and on and on? It has a preamp, opto compressor and EQ in one piece for $2800. I'm thinking out loud here, and wonder if I've made a wrong turn and have gone so far down that road, I don't know how to get back, or just won't go back. Martin, I share your dilemma. I have spent a boatload of cash on equipment and if I had to do it again, I would buy a good channel strip, along with a U-47ish mic. My vocal chain is Cathedral Pipes Notre Dame > A-Designs Ventura > Retro STA > Apogee Symphony. It is fantastic IMO but I bet I could get 95% there with the same mic coupled with something like the Retro Powerstrip or TG Cassette. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 10, 2016 11:01:14 GMT -6
Thanks Matt, I forgot about Retro's power strip. Your system probably seems well chosen and probably sounds great. I'll take a look at the Retro again.
That Gyraf looks interesting too Tim, thanks. I'll sit on this for a while, and see if I can decide which one of these would suit my music best, since I have some time. I suspend all spending until late fall anyway. I teach music to kids here, and in the summer, all my students are away, so I'm on fumes until they come back.
If I had to say what kind of sounds I like, I enjoy the sound on Lyle Lovette's "Road to Ensenada", (they used custom Masseneberg pres, EQ's and converters on that), with a vintage U67 on voice, and a Telefunken C-24 (stereo C-12) on the acoustic guitar simultaneously. I like the sound on Mark Knopfler's "Sailing to Philadelphia" also.
Musically though, I'm probably closer to Ryan Adams or Tom Petty, or so I've been told ;-) The tone of the instruments and mix on Ryan Adams' song "Two" would be just fine for me I think.
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Post by swurveman on Jun 10, 2016 11:07:12 GMT -6
Just out of curiosity, since you were satisfied with your old system what would you estimate purchasing your old- 8 track to 2 track tape, Yamaha mixer, lexicon reverbs and delays, DBX 160 compressors and Neumann U87 would cost used? Then, all you'd need that was digital was two channels of transparent d/a conversion. Since you can't pay it upfront, finance it.
Just a thought....
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 10, 2016 11:16:15 GMT -6
Thanks Swurveman, the only thing I don't miss at all are the tape machines. It is possible of course that they were responsible for much of the vibe I've been missing, but for now, I have to stay with my DAW and easy recall.
Off the top of my head, the mixer, reverbs, delays, compressors and mic would on eBay, Craigslist or on Classifieds here would probably run around 7 G's. So, a channel strip seems like a much better option. Also, down the road, I would love a summing mixer.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 10, 2016 11:27:43 GMT -6
Manley Core here, $2,000: www.ebay.com/itm/Manley-Labs-Core-Reference-Channel-Strip-Pro-Audio-LA-/371164905822?hash=item566b27015e:g:yG4AAOSwajVUPcMcThe Chandler TG runs $2,850, vintageking.com/chandler-limited-tg-microphone-cassetteThe Retro Instruments Power strip: $2,850. The Gyratec II I found was $3,600, Used Great River preamp and EQ run around the same, $2,000-$3,000. |
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Post by kilroyrock on Jun 10, 2016 11:51:06 GMT -6
But if you found everything you wanted in that one cassette, you wouldn't need to research new gear any more, and we all know that's half the fun!
I say get the cassette from a place with 30 days return policy like sweetwater, and vow to return it if you don't like it. don't take the used gear hit, and be honest about it.
In conclusion, I think your own concern is making you pay attention to something in your sound that you didn't worry about before and it's making you second guess yourself. Maybe you're also just writing different songs, in a different room, which had a different sound?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 10, 2016 12:03:03 GMT -6
You're right on all points Kilroy! Except maybe the most fun is getting some traction with the songs I've written.
I think that's a really good suggestion, find a way to try the channel strip and see. I have a friend who might be able to help in that way, but I need to wait a few weeks before asking, or I'll wear out my favors.
As you mentioned, I do think my ears have evolved and I'm looking for a more refined sound now, which is that much harder on a budget.
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Post by tasteliketape on Jun 10, 2016 12:08:42 GMT -6
Just my 02cents but with plugins an software there are so many choice we just keep searching as kilroyrock said second guessing with your old hardware system your choices were limited to what's there not 20 comp, Eq's , verbs to choose
But in the end there nothing sounds like analog gear to tape not saying you can't get great tracks ITB or hybrid but if a choice I'll still take analog to tape
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Post by popmann on Jun 10, 2016 12:25:04 GMT -6
Gear lust is silly beyond a very short time. Meaning--I think there's value in trying a bunch of mics for a project studio because you're literally recording a TINY TINY number of sources. Preamps are STUPID. Buy a nice one. Like 70 recordings? Get a Neve or API...80s? Hardy or ISA....90s Millenia or Avalon....After that, it doesn't matter--you'll lose all that nuance in mastering.
The Apogee wasn't shit. And let the record reflect I am NO Apogee Fanboi. You're using what the Apollo now? Not close to better--the silver one was patently WORSE, IMO, in terms of preamp/conversion. Before Unison--I've not used them since they're enabled the preamp modeling and upgraded the ADCs. I often think we ALL (who come from tape) hold some slightly undeserved hatred for whatever our first digital recorder is/was. It's a shock. Old techniques don't produce the same results. And it IS usually on the cheaper end....feet wet kind of pieces....
I was actually discussing on another forum how I see common threads in "one man band at home" studios---I could address by either doing my new EP with nothing but the little SPL Crimson, SM81, and SM7....even using fake drums, because for I guess for small financial reasons remote drum services aren't being utilized as much as they should be, IMO. But, there was some disagreement about whether I should be using my lovely room full of instruments....or if it should be "all DI"--faux guitar amps, faux pianos, organs, etc...which interests me less--I mean, I can do that TOO....but, it's two separate points. That we have the ability to record your instruments at solid fidelity is different than whatever you might need/want to fake everything....which gets into the slippery slope of I own and play a hammond--I can play any decent "fake" and likely have it sound "more real" than the guy who always wanted Hammond sounds on his record and sees he can buy a $79 fake Hammond plug in.
But, let me ask you this....what test would actually convince you? Or does such a thing exist?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 10, 2016 13:26:37 GMT -6
The only test I can think of is comparing my tracks to the kinds of albums I listed before. Only one got it right out of a dozen, one other track is close. The rest sound like demos.
On that one, I had a real drummer, (different, but related conversation), and the Soyuz 0-17 for vocals, which was a great fit, but out of my price range, so it went back home.
As I've thought on this a little, I noticed that in the back of my mind, I have a dream of having my own room/studio to work in. Like a converted garage. In that room, I'd want a basic complement of all the industry standard gear, some well chosen mics, Neve preamps and EQ or Chandler, some 1176's, an LA2A or 3A, two Sta Levels, Bricasti, two EQP-1A's and a mastering EQ, a board or a summing mixer, some good converters, etc. You can change a brand name or two, but you get the idea.
So in my imaginary home studio, I'll keep the pieces I've cobbled together, and they're my leg up. Back in the real world, in my expensive NY apartment, I want to get to where I'm happy enough to just track, and then get on with soliciting to publishers. So, the idea of a simple channel strip is beginning to appeal to me.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 10, 2016 13:49:08 GMT -6
Oh The one man band and the search for sonic nirvana, it should be easy, after all you only need one grey signal chain right? Its never that easy, ask any monitor engineer there are 3 versions of any voice;
The one the singer hears
The one everybody else hears
The one the singer wants to hear.
The chase for the third is the problem, and the one that evolves over time the most, good luck! 95% of the sound is the mic the rest is either of little consequence or the chase for the holygrail. When it becomes your white wale be very carefull, because it just might teach you that the perfect mic is the real Mobydick!
The simplicity of the package makes the channel strip an easy choice but, Ill bet if you bite on a strip you will find that yourself compromising and back on the hunt in no time!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 10, 2016 13:56:36 GMT -6
I'll say this, with the Soyuz, I felt that if the track wasn't good, it was my performance or arrangement, not the sound.
So it's entirely possible the mic is the thing that's been bugging me the most. That said, the test I did last weekend with the Great River pre and EQ made my mic sound damn good, so now I'm not sure if it is in fact the mic bugging me, or the particular mic/preamp combo I have.
Which led me to thinking of a channel strip I guess..
I've read so many times how people like to catch the transients with an 1176, go to the LA2A or Sta to get the vocal to sit right. I guess they're more familiar with the sound those pieces have, so they want it that way. Me, I never paid attention to those things, I just bought a couple of DBX 160's and never thought about compressors again, until now. It seems like the Chandler or one of the other pieces would stop the merry go round, but you may just have me there Eric. I'll think on the mic thing for a bit.
Maybe I'll see if Fab Dupont would be kind enough to let me compare my mic to the Lauten Audio Eden through his vintage Neve, just to see if I'm crazy or not..
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Post by popmann on Jun 10, 2016 14:31:07 GMT -6
So, not one I can run for you. Good to know. You are chasing a ghost, IME. I realize I edited my previous post which had a story about my session last night doing a Pink cover....one take quicky stuff to practice singing to....but, it ended with--everything I recorded sounded better than her actual record--my faux drums sound SO much nicer than her faux drums....my guitars less like some kind of brittle shitty DI....my bass not a squashed wall of indistinct low end....everything, except my voice. I ain't Alicia. No recording gear is going to change that. I did, however, sound mostly like me. And that's with the perspective of having plenty of "me through 200 different mics" as reference. When you hear yourself though as many mics over as many years as I have--you realize what the common threads are....especially if you ignore modern LDCs, where "truth" is a liability to sales. Acceptance that THAT is what you sound like, and that frankly "THAT" changes day to day, sometimes hour to hour in the session...is not a gear related pursuit. The people who fix that get paid WAY more money than us engineers.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2016 14:39:53 GMT -6
If it came down to it and I was in your spot I'd hock all of that stuff and get a presonus firebox with 8 inputs and some mics to record real drums, maybe buy a really good kit too. You can put a pultec or a chandler on programmed drums and they're still programmed drums. If you don't play yourself hire a session drummer. If you have all that stuff sorted, those are great pieces of gear that the Chandler or Manley isn't really going to improve on, just make a different sound.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 10, 2016 16:07:07 GMT -6
I've been considering that very issue lately Jordanvoth. I've concluded that I'll take two paths. I've decided that demos are OK with Superior Drummer tracks, but should I release anything of my own, I will get real drums and remix.
The last track I did had Sammy Merendino on drums. It's a for charity project, and he donated his time and talents. He's got a dozen top ten albums and hundreds more pro records under his belt, and his own beautiful studio, tweaked to perfection. Man, what a thrill it was to hear those subtleties on drums again, perfect variation on snare volume, slight slowdown just before picking up to lift the chorus. Music. raw and real.
Next chance I get to go to Nashville, I'll take my mic along and see what the guys here think.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 10, 2016 16:14:54 GMT -6
I understand you may be chasing the sound of a Mark Knofler or Lyle record, and that may be the sound you "see" yourself wanting to be.
But, Just as people are comparing you to Ryan Adams, Ryan himself doesn't exactly listen to the type of music he records and puts out there. He is really into punk and metal music - if you follow him on any social media, or listen to the recent re-release of Heartbreaker, when they flub a take, he and Ethan (Johns, on drums) would break out into a heck of a racket while messing about.
The sound of Ryan's records, as far as I can tell, comes foremost from an emotional spot, and secondly from playing live with a group of seriously talented dudes in one room all at the same time. They play off each other, hes usually playing acoustic gtr ($150 garage finds) and singing at the same time. His records would sound vastly different if they were layered one instrument at a time. Also, they aren't exactly fantastic sounding records - with the exception of Ashes and Fire. They just have a great heartfelt vibe to them.
I'd encourage you to keep what you have - get a pair of tunes and record them not worrying so much about the gear, but in the performance and energy you put into the recording. Then send your acoustic and vocal track off to somebody like Aaron Sterling and have him remotely lay down some drums for you. After you get that back, add whatever you need on top. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised with what you wind up with. Dont worry about getting caught up in the gear crazed mindset. Worry about your performance, and let talented people help support that performance.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 10, 2016 16:20:43 GMT -6
Thanks Jeremy, I think I needed that, really, thanks.
I do listen to some odd things, Early Music, I have a strange like for 11th century French Latin songs, Elizabethan era folk and court music too. My playlist for the last six months has been the War On Drugs, Robert Plant & Alison Krauss, Monk solo in San Francisco, and Steve Stills, and Sir Neville Mariner's Mozart 30, 32, 33.
Last years heavy rotation was Hank Snow, Gene Clark, Grant Green, and the Weavers. Go figure.
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Post by yotonic on Jun 10, 2016 16:27:40 GMT -6
The best investment for a one man band is an Sm7. It forces you to stop wasting time and money on gear and to write better songs. For $2000 in NYC you could have all sorts of creative young people co writing with you and advancing your craft (and soul) more than any piece of gear. (Your post was about being a songwriter not an engineer)
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 10, 2016 16:28:42 GMT -6
I have given up on programmed drums I love saving up my dough and bringing in my real drummer, Matt Aston. He typically plays complete takes and as the song was recorded to click I find this adds a vibe and continuity to the track that I really appreciate. It would be cool if Fab would let you test out his neve and lauten again. One thing, don't let this search, stop your actual writing and recording |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 10, 2016 16:35:32 GMT -6
Thanks Matt, as soon as I figure out how to pay the bills this summer, (my business withers all summer long), I'll get back on that. The last experience helped me get closer to my goal. I had a lot of help. M57 played organ, Henge played bass, Sammy Merendino drums, and my friend Jon Bendis on electric guitar. Jon's been with Roseanne Cash, Don Henley, and Neil Young among others. So the vibe those guys brought helped the track come to life, that and the tasty Soyuz 0-17.
I do hope to reach out more now Yotonic, and despite the gear lust, part of the idea of this thread is that I want to get off the gear merry-go-round for a while soon. I just want to settle the "do I need a different mic or a different pre" issue. The rest can wait, for now.
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Post by jakeharris on Jun 10, 2016 16:44:18 GMT -6
Why do you need Fab Dupont? Just post the files here and see what everyone else thinks... I'd personally enjoy hearing the D4 vs Great River takes
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 10, 2016 16:52:35 GMT -6
I've been considering that very issue lately Jordanvoth. I've concluded that I'll take two paths. I've decided that demos are OK with Superior Drummer tracks, but should I release anything of my own, I will get real drums and remix. The last track I did had Sammy Merendino on drums. It's a for charity project, and he donated his time and talents. He's got a dozen top ten albums and hundreds more pro records under his belt, and his own beautiful studio, tweaked to perfection. Man, what a thrill it was to hear those subtleties on drums again, perfect variation on snare volume, slight slowdown just before picking up to lift the chorus. Music. raw and real. Next chance I get to go to Nashville, I'll take my mic along and see what the guys here think. OK my friend what about the anti slut approach, simple set up at home, spend the cash on using a real studio when it gets to the point where you need to do it right? |
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Post by jakeharris on Jun 10, 2016 16:55:00 GMT -6
I just want to settle the "do I need a different mic or a different pre" issue. The rest can wait, for now. Not sure I follow this... You just tried a different pre and in your own words it sounded damn good. But now instead of getting that pre and be done with it, you're back to questioning the mic again? This merrygoround seems to be self-inflicted... |
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