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Post by rowmat on Jun 4, 2016 6:32:54 GMT -6
I have no idea whether or not most 500 Series Neve style pre's have 600ohm termination resistors installed on their output transformers but my Heritage 80 Series preamps don't and neither does the Heritage 'Frame 8' rack they are fitted into. Obviously if the pre is driving gear with a 600ohm input impedance then the above is a mute point. However as most modern transformerless audio gear has input impedances typical around 10k-20k ohms how many guys here are ensuring the output transformers are correctly loaded depending on the gear being used? Does anyone use an inline termination (XLR style etc) or a switchable 600ohm resistor... or not bother... or not realise?
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Post by jin167 on Jun 4, 2016 7:05:31 GMT -6
great river mp500nv allows you to choose between 600 ohm termination and non termination format. Didn't know that heritage units aren't terminated.
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Post by sozocaps on Jun 4, 2016 8:31:40 GMT -6
So... with no termination, if you go to a transformer based compressor or eq (1176,LA-2A, Neve or API EQ) after the preamp and before the converter there should be no issue ?
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Post by sozocaps on Jun 4, 2016 8:35:13 GMT -6
my Apogee converters have Input = 100k Ohm
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Post by jeromemason on Jun 4, 2016 9:33:49 GMT -6
I have no idea whether or not most 500 Series Neve style pre's have 600ohm termination resistors installed on their output transformers but my Heritage 80 Series preamps don't and neither does the Heritage 'Frame 8' rack they are fitted into. Obviously if the pre is driving gear with a 600ohm input impedance then the above is a mute point. However as most modern transformerless audio gear has input impedances typical around 10k-20k ohms how many guys here are ensuring the output transformers are correctly loaded depending on the gear being used? Does anyone use an inline termination (XLR style etc) or a switchable 600ohm resistor... or not bother... or not realise? Are you sure? On old Urei stuff and other types of preamps that were built a long time ago you would just build your term resistor into the pigtails and move on, but modern day manufacturers normally fix the impedance of their gear properly to avoid ringing.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 4, 2016 10:17:18 GMT -6
So... with no termination, if you go to a transformer based compressor or eq (1176,LA-2A, Neve or API EQ) after the preamp and before the converter there should be no issue ? only if the transformer based piece is truly terminated, many are bridging.
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Post by rowmat on Jun 4, 2016 14:19:17 GMT -6
After enquiring with Heritage Audio whether transformer termination resistors were fitted to my Series 80 modules and/or 'Frame 8' rack here is the email reply I received... I don't know whether or not 500 series modules are also unterminated but I will enquire about those as well.
If you are finding that in some circumstances the upper frequencies seem somewhat harsh or too sibilant especially when using condenser mics CHECK THE OUTPUT TRANSFORMER LOAD IMPEDANCE!
I suspect many pieces of gear using output transformers are incorrectly terminated. Back in 'the old' days pretty much every bit of gear in most studio were 600ohms.
Today we have a mixture of new and old (or re-issued vintage gear) so the loading is likely to change as soon as you patch in a different piece of gear.
If your are already feeding into a 600 ohm input impedance then you are okay. If you are feeding into a typical high impedance input on most modern, non vintage gear then you are not.
This is a good case for fitting switchable load terminating resistors to the transformer outputs of any gear that doesn't already have them fitted.
Without sufficient transformer loading your acoustic guitar tracks may sound a bit more sparkly even with no EQ but your vocal tracks may end up too sibilant and possibly even little harsh.
This is the result of output transformer ringing which appears as waveform overshoot on an oscilloscope.
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Post by rowmat on Jun 4, 2016 15:11:20 GMT -6
great river mp500nv allows you to choose between 600 ohm termination and non termination format. Didn't know that heritage units aren't terminated. I'm not sure about the 500 series Heritage modules but the 80 Series are not terminated. The termination resistors were typically fitted into the console chassis anyway. Later many studios incorporated termination resistors into a dedicated section of the patchbay so the correct termination loading could be patched 'in or out' depending on requirements. Typically the in-house studio tech took care of all this. I have emailed Heritage to ask about the 500 Series.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 4, 2016 15:23:35 GMT -6
I wish it were really this easy, but it ain't so. Meant for a 600 ohm system does not mean everything is necessarily actual 600 ohms, or anywhere near it, it frequently means SHOULD BE fed by 600 ohm sources, which can be difficult to determine. It really takes test gear measurements to determine optimal loading, and you can't just look at most spec sheets and determine input or output impedance, nor can you really even with a good understanding of schematic basics. If it's transformer coupled, test gear is going to clue you to the transformer specs that aren't printed either, such as does it give target response with a matching or bridging condition. YES...the transformer might require either matching or bridging condition source impedance AND the equipment it is a part of might be adhering to that condition, or not, and the piece after might be....or not. Good news is it's seldom sonic make or break, and common minor effects are frequently up at or past our accepted hearing range. Too heavily loaded sometimes roll off highs, sometimes it extends response. Depends on the transformer! Too low a source Z can be a problem on some rare occasions, and then you need series resistance to RAISE source impedance. There are some good Altec papers on the various issues with power amps and EQ's online.
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Post by rowmat on Jun 4, 2016 15:37:32 GMT -6
I wish it were really this easy, but it ain't so. Meant for a 600 ohm system does to mean everything is necessarily actual 600 ohms, or anywhere near it, it frequently means SHOULD BE fed by 600 ohm sources, which can be difficult to determine. It really takes test gear measurements to determine optimal loading, and you can't just look at most spec sheets and determine input or output impedance, nor can you really even with a good understanding of schematic basics. If it's transformer coupled, test gear is going to clue you to the transformer specs that aren't printed either, such as does it give target response with a matching or bridging condition. YES...the transformer might require either matching or bridging condition source impedance AND the equipment it is a part of might be adhering to that condition, or not, and the piece after might be....or not. Good news is it's seldom sonic make or break, and common minor effects are frequently up at or past our accepted hearing range. Too heavily loaded sometimes roll off highs, sometimes it extends response. Depends on the transformer! Too low a source Z can be a problem on some rare occasions, and then you need series resistance to RAISE source impedance. There are some good Altec papers on the various issues with power amps and EQ's online. A signal generator, oscilloscope and a bunch of resistors (or a variable) would let you dial in the correct load but of course the second you connected a different piece of gear everything would change. I find our Class A/B Neve 50 series broadcast modules (3115's and 33114's) seem more sensitive to different termination loads than the Class A 80 series. The 50 Series can get quite 'zingy' unless properly terminated.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 4, 2016 16:12:23 GMT -6
My Neve experience has only been within the context of a complete console, and I'm assuming correct loads attached.
If you really want to cover all bases, a switchable load using a rheostat with build out resistor to set minimum resistance load value would let you dial to taste, or you could use a rotary switch to set steps that align with particular interface needs. In practice I haven't found too many things that need variable options after tweaking in the right loading, which tends to be passive EQ's here. Build outs to raise source Z are sometimes needed to get passive filter sets flat on average. Closest example to the Neve situation I can think of is RCA SS preamps, which are described as 600 ohm system pieces, yet deliver a source impedance well under 100 ohms, and oscillate with anything higher than around 1K5. They don't show difference in response comparing 600 with 1K5, so 1K5 is a safe load resistance in that case to prevent need for an 'off' switch when connecting to a true 600 input, 1K5/600 not really impacting response either where 600/600 will have effects.
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Post by rowmat on Jun 4, 2016 17:55:39 GMT -6
My Neve experience has only been within the context of a complete console, and I'm assuming correct loads attached. If you really want to cover all bases, a switchable load using a rheostat with build out resistor to set minimum resistance load value would let you dial to taste, or you could use a rotary switch to set steps that align with particular interface needs. In practice I haven't found too many things that need variable options after tweaking in the right loading, which tends to be passive EQ's here. Build outs to raise source Z are sometimes needed to get passive filter sets flat on average. Closest example to the Neve situation I can think of is RCA SS preamps, which are described as 600 ohm system pieces, yet deliver a source impedance well under 100 ohms, and oscillate with anything higher than around 1K5. They don't show difference in response comparing 600 with 1K5, so 1K5 is a safe load resistance in that case to prevent need for an 'off' switch when connecting to a true 600 input, 1K5/600 not really impacting response either where 600/600 will have effects. It's somewhat ironic that the re-racking of old Neve and other transformer type pre's for use with unpredictable loads could result in greater variances in sound quality than the differences between two entirely different but correctly terminated preamps.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 4, 2016 18:19:19 GMT -6
Indeed. Here's another. Langevin AM-16 and Altec 9470A. Both designed by John Hall, very similar designs (compared to anything else on the planet) done within a few years of one another. AM-16 needs a load or there's a large high treble boost, 9470A does not. Combination of circuit specifics and transformer winding differences. AM-16 loses more than 3.5dB comparing 10K to 600R load, 9470A loses less than 1dB, this tells us something about actual output Z.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 5, 2016 12:35:23 GMT -6
Pulling this one out of my ass; was not the terminating resistor on many Neve amps 1K2?
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Post by rowmat on Jun 5, 2016 12:49:18 GMT -6
Pulling this one out of my ass; was not the terminating resistor on many Neve amps 1K2? Are you sure you don't mean the 300R/1K2 switchable input impedance?
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Post by EmRR on Jun 5, 2016 13:02:28 GMT -6
Yeah, pretty sure. I thought about that. I think the patchbay loads were 1K2 in many cases, but I might be remembering incorrectly.
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Post by svart on Jun 6, 2016 7:38:20 GMT -6
Just get a 600R 3dB or 6dB pad and put it on the output. You should notice a difference in the frequency response if it's not terminated normally.
However, a lot of clones have snubber/zobel terminations on the output transformers to keep them from ringing. These serve as an overall termination as well.
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Post by rowmat on Jun 6, 2016 11:47:38 GMT -6
Regarding non Series 80 Heritage pre's I just received this info from Heritage Audio...
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Post by stormymondays on Jun 28, 2020 13:17:33 GMT -6
Bumping up this topic that I wanted to research. I have a few pieces that might need to be terminated: 1176 clone, Heritage TT73 (edit: it's factory terminated), Tree Audio The Branch II. I don’t have an oscilloscope - is this the moment to get one and learn how to work it? Is there something that I could patch on my patchbay (TRS) to add the 600 ohm termination? Is there something I could listen for, or is the oscilloscope required?
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Post by svart on Jun 28, 2020 13:32:57 GMT -6
Bumping up this topic that I wanted to research. I have a few pieces that might need to be terminated: 1176 clone, Heritage TT73, Tree Audio The Branch II. I don’t have an oscilloscope - is this the moment to get one and learn how to work it? Is there something that I could patch on my patchbay (TRS) to add the 600 ohm termination? Is there something I could listen for, or is the oscilloscope required? Make a few patch cords with 600r resistors bridging the tip and ring in one of the trs shells. Patch it in and listen. If it gets a little darker sounding, it probably needed a termination. If it gets really strange sounding or the output level drops a lot, then it's probably already equipped with one.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 28, 2020 14:05:47 GMT -6
Put it on a software response analyzer with a 100K pot as rheostat across the output, put white or pink noise through it as you would to measure response, diddle the pot and see if you get any major treble response changes. If something looks ideal, measure the pot and use that as a load R. Look at what 600 looks like, 1200 looks like, 10K looks like. If 1200 looks better than 600, do that. Then if you patch to a true 600 you aren't double crushing it, and if not it's still OK. There is no set-and-forget answer for perfect consistency across all possibilities. There is no way NOT involving an analyzer to tweak other than by ear, which will lie to you in the heat of a session.
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