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Post by Martin John Butler on May 30, 2016 16:37:29 GMT -6
Thanks kcat, great post. I will certainly think on that and try a few things out. I guess the smart move is to get on the case and see if I can visit my friend to try his Great River pre with my mic. If I don't like that, I'll know it's not the preamp that's bugging me.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 30, 2016 16:46:20 GMT -6
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Post by littlesicily on May 30, 2016 16:54:05 GMT -6
I would suggest a CAPI VP28 with Litz transformer. It can be super clean with tons of headroom. You already have the D4 which is going to add a little sheen on top. I think a Neve style pre would sound great, but you're not gonna really need it to drive anything unless you're going for that on purpose. Borrowed Randy's RTZ and it really is a fantastic sounding Neve style pre. Also, I think littlesicily is selling a Neve 1073LB. Those are great. And then, of course, you've got the Heritage or BAE...but we could argue for hours about those Yes I just listed a Neve 1073 LB locally for $825. Willing to ship.
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Post by M57 on May 30, 2016 17:02:07 GMT -6
Thanks kcat, great post. I will certainly think on that and try a few things out. I guess the smart move is to get on the case and see if I can visit my friend to try his Great River pre with my mic. If I don't like that, I'll know it's not the preamp that's bugging me. Let me errr... I mean 'us all' know how that works out The Great River is an extremely affordable option, but I'm going to explore a lot of variations with my UM-18R -> D4 combination before making any sideways moves. As I'm sure you noticed in the thread where I posted a few takes with the Blackspade and Dizengoff, singing different distances from the mic can make a dramatic difference, and what I hear when I'm laying it down down doesn't necessarily translate to sitting in the mix the way I thought it would. I haven't even begun to play with polar patterns or placement of baffles. Yeah, the D4 is one sensitive tricky piece of gear, but I love what I hear as the dimensionality it brings to the track ..and I want to make it work. BTW, WA-2A is in the mail - can't wait to put that in the chain !!
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Post by kcatthedog on May 30, 2016 17:06:47 GMT -6
M57 we will have to compare notes as I have d4's and a wa-2a on the way I think I know what Martin means in that the soyuz was a very smooth sound. I kind of wondered if it was maybe too smooth: like dark chocolate. Rich but do I want that all the time ? Perhaps Martin should try the Kush neve plug with his current set and see how close he can get to the soyuz sound ?
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Post by EmRR on May 30, 2016 17:59:13 GMT -6
Agree with Jake's comment about headroom in the pre versus output level of the mic, and note the D4 is gonna be a fairly high feedback amp which means it sounds nasty when it clips, pretty edgy/forward when close to it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 30, 2016 22:25:18 GMT -6
I bought the Neve Model N from Kush. The demo needed an activation code and for some reason it wasn't showing. Thanks for the mic comments Jake, EmRR, it'll make me take a closer look at my preamp now.
The thing that confuses me is that my previous Blackspade mic was very similar in sound and output, and if anything, the Soyuz was even hotter, and the D4 seemed OK, so I don't know if my issue with my new mic has anything to do with the D4 or not. I'll try tracking something tomorrow and see if perhaps the track I've been using to look at this was recorded with too much gain on my pre.
I'll also do my best to try out the Great River asap.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 31, 2016 9:17:31 GMT -6
I gave the Kush Neve a try and it was interesting. I recognized the sound immediately, as I do have some Neve style processing in other plugs. John, you are right in a way, I really don't want to muddy up my tracks.
The nice thing about the Kush is that it does in fact sound better than the other saturation style plugs I have. So, in small doses, I think it's adding a little glue to the song I've been working on. I tried a pinch on the lead vocal, pinch on the acoustic piano, and a touch on the two bus.
If you put too much, it sounds like you've lowered the volume or EQ'd the highs, but in small amounts, between say.. 8:00 and 10:00 it's rather pleasant. I'll listen again later with fresh ears and report back.
I don't think I'll go for the UAD 1073 special. I'm guessing the unison technology with the 1073 plug could be useful if you're tracking live drums while doing some other instruments, that would give you 4 channels of Neve-ish sound for drums.
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Post by jakeharris on May 31, 2016 12:45:22 GMT -6
... I don't know if my issue with my new mic has anything to do with the D4 or not. I've seen some of your other posts, and sounds like your only issue with your new mic is that it's not the Soyuz Ex-demo's go for around $3K, not hard to get to from where you are. Turning down the D4's gain won't increase its headroom. How about using the 20dB pad?
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ericn
Temp
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Post by ericn on May 31, 2016 12:58:35 GMT -6
Honestly Martin If you want the Neve pre sound, there are a ton of quality options that long term will serve you better than any plugin! I would save my cash and wait till I found something that's a steal on the used market, yes I have 8 ch of good Neve clones! If I were in need of the EQ I might bite on that deal but even then I'd want hardware, the only advantage to the plug I see is recall.
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Post by mrholmes on May 31, 2016 13:07:41 GMT -6
Honestly Martin If you want the Neve pre sound, there are a ton of quality options that long term will serve you better than any plugin! I would save my cash and wait till I found something that's a steal on the used market, yes I have 8 ch of good Neve clones! If I were in need of the EQ I might bite on that deal but even then I'd want hardware, the only advantage to the plug I see is recall. I already mentioned to look into the GAP Pre 73 if money is tight this is a wonderful mic-pre.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 31, 2016 13:29:18 GMT -6
Honestly Martin If you want the Neve pre sound, there are a ton of quality options that long term will serve you better than any plugin! I would save my cash and wait till I found something that's a steal on the used market, yes I have 8 ch of good Neve clones! If I were in need of the EQ I might bite on that deal but even then I'd want hardware, the only advantage to the plug I see is recall. I already mentioned to look into the GAP Pre 73 if money is tight this is a wonderful mic-pre. The stock Gap is a ding Bargain! A Modded Gap is very very cool I want to hear Stam's take!
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 31, 2016 13:58:22 GMT -6
Thanks guys, all great suggestions. I didn't go for the UAD plugin special sale because it makes much more sense to put that kind of money toward one of the budget Neve clone preamps.
You're right Jake, my mic is excellent, but the Soyuz was like sleeping with Marilyn Monroe, hard to forget. All in good time I guess.
I'm in no rush and have other gear priorities anyway. I'm getting a new guitar amp later this week, and still need a thunderbolt computer to upgrade to the new Apollo's.
I think waiting to see how the Stam turns out is a good idea. If it's really good, I'll try one, or one of the other pres you guys recommended.
Meanwhile, back at the Butler ranch, the Kush plug sounds pretty good. It kind of raised the vibe of a track I'm working on a bit.
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Post by M57 on May 31, 2016 15:14:14 GMT -6
... I don't know if my issue with my new mic has anything to do with the D4 or not. I've seen some of your other posts, and sounds like your only issue with your new mic is that it's not the Soyuz Ex-demo's go for around $3K, not hard to get to from where you are. Turning down the D4's gain won't increase its headroom. How about using the 20dB pad? I'm working with the same chain as Martin and I tried the pad on the D4 and it just sucked the life out of the UM-18. With hindsight I may have gain-staged things wrong - I may have to go back a give it another try.
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Post by wiz on May 31, 2016 16:24:35 GMT -6
... I don't know if my issue with my new mic has anything to do with the D4 or not. I've seen some of your other posts, and sounds like your only issue with your new mic is that it's not the Soyuz Ex-demo's go for around $3K, not hard to get to from where you are. Turning down the D4's gain won't increase its headroom. How about using the 20dB pad? I demo'd the D4 and sent it back due to its lack of headroom cheers Wiz (sounded really nice, especially on acoustic guitars)
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Post by kcatthedog on May 31, 2016 16:42:20 GMT -6
I am trying to understand how significant the lack of head room is/could be ?
I have used my d4's on acoustic and electric guitar, vox, electric bass (di'd), drums (Overhead, snare and kick (with pad for drums).
The only problem I ever had was one time I forgot to use the pad and had a distorted track on peak hits.
Is that the practical limitation of headroom , you get to distortion sooner with reduced headroom , i.e., less dynamic range in a pre/circuit ?
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Post by wiz on May 31, 2016 16:47:36 GMT -6
I am trying to understand how significant the lack of head room is/could be ? I have used my d4's on acoustic and electric guitar, vox, electric bass (di'd), drums (Overhead, snare and kick (with pad for drums). The only problem I ever had was one time I forgot to use the pad and had a distorted track on peak hits. Is that the practical limitation of headroom , you get to distortion sooner with reduced headroom , i.e., less dynamic range in a pre/circuit ? Headroom, is the amount of electrical energy a device can cope with and function within spec, above a nominal level. Eg 0VU = +4dBu, and the device is spec'd to +24dBu, it has 20dB headroom. Lack of headroom, less energy it can handle (which translates in real life to ability to handle not just higher levels but transient response).. in some cases very cool sonically.. in others, not. Generally headroom relates in some way to the DC power supply voltage used. Two of the main microphones I would have used with the D4 were vintage Neumann, an 84 and 87. It didn't cope with them. The distortion was present regardless of the amount of gain used ( I think the gain knob was just an attenuator) the internal circuit couldnt cope. An issue for me, not necessarily for anyone else though. As I said, it sounded nice. cheers Wiz
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 31, 2016 17:11:07 GMT -6
I am trying to understand how significant the lack of head room is/could be ? I have used my d4's on acoustic and electric guitar, vox, electric bass (di'd), drums (Overhead, snare and kick (with pad for drums). The only problem I ever had was one time I forgot to use the pad and had a distorted track on peak hits. Is that the practical limitation of headroom , you get to distortion sooner with reduced headroom , i.e., less dynamic range in a pre/circuit ? Headroom, is the amount of electrical energy a device can cope with and function within spec, above a nominal level. Eg 0VU = +4dBu, and the device is spec'd to +24dBu, it has 20dB headroom. Lack of headroom, less energy it can handle (which translates in real life to ability to handle not just higher levels but transient response).. in some cases very cool sonically.. in others, not. Generally headroom relates in some way to the DC power supply voltage used. Two of the main microphones I would have used with the D4 were vintage Neumann, an 84 and 87. It didn't cope with them. The distortion was present regardless of the amount of gain used ( I think the gain knob was just an attenuator) the internal circuit couldnt cope. An issue for me, not necessarily for anyone else though. As I said, it sounded nice. cheers Wiz Sounds like what I heard in the track from M57.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 31, 2016 17:16:58 GMT -6
Hey Wiz thx!
I know that the D4 is considered a fast pre in terms of its transient response. I understood this practically to mean that it should pass the quick transients accurately and well. The d4 is typically well liked with string instruments. I find on acoustic there is typically both a clarity and presence.
I have used my d4's with my diy c12 and mk-u47 and my octavamod sdc.
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Post by lolo on May 31, 2016 20:28:29 GMT -6
Martin or you can just buy the Slate VMR subscription for a year for the same price. He's got a new 1073 out. VMR is pretty good. Lots of options. Maybe demo it
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Post by Johnkenn on May 31, 2016 20:38:00 GMT -6
Or buy a real one...although I doubt you would drive it very much with what you do.
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Post by warrenfirehouse on May 31, 2016 21:04:58 GMT -6
Played with Kush N last night for the first time and it sounds pretty friggin great to me. I really like it.
And I'll add IME good plugins can sound better than some analog counterparts. For vocals I prefer this kush N plug on a clean preamp over my bla b173 hardware. I also like the UAD bluestripe better than my warm76.
My ams Neve is better than both, and I bet my future serpent splice will trump both 76s. But just assuming hardware is always better is wrong imo.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2016 21:37:50 GMT -6
I think the "driven" Neve thing is pretty overrated. Martin, you play acoustic music. How often are you going to be over saturating your stuff? this 100% even in my productions, I'm really driving a couple of things. I put the slate emus on everything I do but it's more of a set and forget, I'm not even sure I'd notice if I did a project without them on.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 1, 2016 6:17:44 GMT -6
I use VCC because I can really tell a difference with the bottom end and a little width with it on the Neve setting. The 1073 pre thingy is more about saturation...and I never use it because, honestly, without driving it, I can't tell a difference.
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Post by jeromemason on Jun 1, 2016 10:27:07 GMT -6
I would suggest a CAPI VP28 with Litz transformer. It can be super clean with tons of headroom. You already have the D4 which is going to add a little sheen on top. I think a Neve style pre would sound great, but you're not gonna really need it to drive anything unless you're going for that on purpose. Borrowed Randy's RTZ and it really is a fantastic sounding Neve style pre. Also, I think littlesicily is selling a Neve 1073LB. Those are great. And then, of course, you've got the Heritage or BAE...but we could argue for hours about those Yeah, Randge's RTZ basically made me put my head down and walk away in Shame when we A/B'd it with my Carnhill modded GAP573, which I thought sounded massive...... The Sowter output tranny and Bobby's damn good design completely smoked my stuff, just murdered it and I've put that up against some of the expensive Neve clones.... it hung right with those, not RTZ though. Something extremely special about those preamps.
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