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Post by Martin John Butler on May 5, 2016 9:36:20 GMT -6
I need opinions on choosing a master. I changed only one small thing, so they're nearly identical. I don't want to say right away what the difference is, because I want you to hear for yourselves. Let me know if you prefer master A or B.
Jcoutou, (Jesse Coutou) kindly mastered this song for me. It will be featured in a video, and profits will go to the Brothers In Arms MC, a veterans only motorcycle club. They'll use donations to support local charities to help aged veterans in need of housing and medical help.
Our very own M57, (Mark Rabuck) played the organ and and Henge, (Anton Evans), bass. My friend Jon Bendis, (Roseanne Cash, Don Henley, Neil Young) on electric guitars,
Sammy Merendino, ( Billy Joel, Hall & Oates, Foreigner, Joan Osborne, Cyndi Lauper, etc.. on drums.
I appreciate your ears on this, thanks in advance!
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/long-road-back-master-1-5-4-16
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/lrb-mstr2-5-4-16-shk-dwn
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Post by jazznoise on May 5, 2016 9:58:51 GMT -6
A for me!
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 5, 2016 10:24:41 GMT -6
Thanks Jazznoise, appreciate your taking the time to listen.
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Post by swurveman on May 5, 2016 15:41:58 GMT -6
A for me as well.
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Post by wiz on May 5, 2016 15:55:35 GMT -6
B
warm and round
great song btw
cheers
Wiz
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Post by mdmitch2 on May 5, 2016 16:10:41 GMT -6
I'll vote B also.... vocal sounds more natural. Easier on the ears overall.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 5, 2016 16:35:19 GMT -6
Well, it's a draw so far.. I really appreciate you're listening and commenting guys, thanks. I hope to get some more opinions. It's a bit of a learning experience. It's the first time I've begun to really think of the mastering when mixing.
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Post by M57 on May 5, 2016 16:47:52 GMT -6
Short answer: B
Long answer: A sounds pure and more detailed, with tighter transients. B sounds like there's a piece of analog gear in the way ..but I like it. B would be my choice if if I had to choose one over the other, but were it possible I'd prefer a tad less B in the way. Damn, I'm going to have to get Jesse to master something for me!
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 5, 2016 17:04:15 GMT -6
Here's what's going on; the EQ applied during mastering really helped the song's energy, but at the same time, brought the shakers too up front. I ran the mix again, same exact settings with only the shakers lowered to compensate when mastered. Jesse remastered with the same settings. But two things are never exactly the same at different times I guess, and somehow mix A is a little stronger, or perhaps a pinch louder. Mix A feels like me to me, but intellectually I know B is little less edgy. I'm leaning toward A for impact, but will live with them both for a little while until I get one of those epiphany moments, where the answer is intuitive.
Thanks Mark. I don't quite understand what you mean by a "tad less B in the way", can you elaborate?
I think Jesse did a beautiful job here.
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Post by jazznoise on May 5, 2016 17:08:11 GMT -6
Amazing if that's the only difference! I feel like all the percussion comes out much more in A. The B one to me sounds like it's much more of a solo artist + some embellishment, A feels like a full band playing. Stereo image also seems different. Maybe Jesse could say if there was some M/S shaping of the two mixes?
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Post by M57 on May 5, 2016 17:16:56 GMT -6
Here's what's going on; the EQ applied during mastering really helped the song's energy, but at the same time, brought the shakers too up front. I lowered the shakers and Jesse remastered with the same settings. Bit two things are never exactly the same at a different time, and somehow mix A is a little stronger, or perhaps a pinch louder. Mix A feels like me to me, but intellectually I know B is little less edgy. I'm leaning toward A for impact, but will live with them both for a little while until I get one of this epiphany moments, where the answer is intuitive. Thanks Mark. I don't quite understand what you mean by a "tad less B in the way". I think Jesse did a beautiful job here. I never could have guessed! It sounded Wow! I never could have guessed! To me, it sounded like there was an added piece of gear on the B mix, chopping off some the transients - and though I liked it, I thought it might be overdone. (that's what I meant when I said I wanted "less" B. I also like the impact of A; it's more detailed, but B sounds SOO smooth and analog'y.' |
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 5, 2016 18:00:47 GMT -6
Thanks for the positive response guys. There was no mid-side work from me.
The chain was as follows...
Svartbox > RJR Buss Compressor > SPL Passeq > Tonelux EQ5P > Thermionic Culture Phoenix Mastering > Svartbox > FabFilter Pro-Q filters > FabFilter Pro-L.
I ran the first mix in the morning, had a tracking session all day, then ran Martins adjusted mix through the same chain/settings before I had to run out the door. No additional tweaking on my part.
They do sound different to my ears too. The vocal on the second mix seems a bit strange to me. Phasey or something listening back this morning. Not sure if something else was changed when Martin bounced or something.
Also, because the mix changed, I think it hit my chain a bit differently. The lowered shaker mix must have hit the compressors and eq a little less because the DR went from 8 to 9.
Anyway, to my ears, I prefer my mix 1.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 5, 2016 18:11:58 GMT -6
That is amazing. All I did was lower the shakers. I took a best guess as to how much to lower them, so as to blend in when Jesse ran the master again. I wish I remembered by exactly how much I lowered them, but it was just enough, I didn't want them to disappear.
It really shows just how sensitive all the components of a mix are as they interact with each other, and how much more sensitive it can be when mastering.
I'm also amazed anyone ever gets this kind of thing "right".
* I'm watching a documentary about Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers on netflix right now. I always enjoyed his work, and I think Wildflowers is a masterpiece, but I wasn't a fan per se, because even though he was older than me, we were both playing in signed bands at the same time, so in a way, he was the competition. We clearly had similar influences. The song "Refugee" sure was "right" though, it even sounds great on my tv speakers.
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Post by Jason on May 5, 2016 20:29:17 GMT -6
I think you've nailed it, Martin. A's edge cuts through my Galaxy S6 speakers just a little stronger, or maybe it's just a touch louder, than B. Yet, my ears prefer B for many of the same reasons M57 has explained. For me, A cuts, but B gels. It's splitting hairs though...the hard work is already done and they both sound excellent; Jesse did a great job! Good luck deciding which to live with, but I don't think you'll get it "wrong" in either case. Cheers! Jason Here's what's going on; the EQ applied during mastering really helped the song's energy, but at the same time, brought the shakers too up front. I ran the mix again, same exact settings with only the shakers lowered to compensate when mastered. Jesse remastered with the same settings. But two things are never exactly the same at different times I guess, and somehow mix A is a little stronger, or perhaps a pinch louder. Mix A feels like me to me, but intellectually I know B is little less edgy. I'm leaning toward A for impact, but will live with them both for a little while until I get one of those epiphany moments, where the answer is intuitive. Thanks Mark. I don't quite understand what you mean by a "tad less B in the way", can you elaborate? I think Jesse did a beautiful job here. |
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Post by javamad on May 6, 2016 2:29:40 GMT -6
A for me as well. Brighter and it feels like the music is more forward.
I understand that you only changed the shaker volume but was the mastering process changed also? It sure feels like it. (on ear buds)
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 6, 2016 4:26:10 GMT -6
A for me as well. Brighter and it feels like the music is more forward. I understand that you only changed the shaker volume but was the mastering process changed also? It sure feels like it. (on ear buds) No change. Ran the new file through the same chain. |
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Post by M57 on May 6, 2016 5:18:43 GMT -6
I just listened at work this morning on a pair of BX-6's in a music classroom that I like to test mixes on. Of course, now that the bug is in my ear, the shaker is too loud on A. But it's still hard to imagine that other things weren't changed - E.g., that you or Martin somehow added some make-up gain somewhere to compensate for the lowered shaker. Jesse, in my first post, I resisted saying I thought B was smeared a bit. I do think A is more detailed and the better master, but right now B is the better 'mix' for me.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 6, 2016 5:38:53 GMT -6
I just listened at work this morning on a pair of BX-6's in a music classroom that I like to test mixes on. Of course, now that the bug is in my ear, the shaker is too loud on A. But it's still hard to imagine that other things weren't changed - E.g., that you or Martin somehow added some make-up gain somewhere to compensate for the lowered shaker. Jesse, in my first post, I resisted saying I thought B was smeared a bit. I do think A is more detailed and the better master, but right now B is the better 'mix' for me. I think the loud shaker was pushing the top end of the mix, as well as hitting the compressors harder, when that dropped, different things may have hit the compressors differently. Maybe, instead of the shaker pushing, it was the vocal, causing it to lose a little juice. Master 2 was literally an, "I've got 10 minutes left in the studio, I gotta bang this through before I leave for the weekend." master. I anticipated it sounding much closer than it does. That said, I don't find the shaker to be a problem for me. It pushes the song forward and keeps it alive. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 6, 2016 8:25:50 GMT -6
It's good to hear from you guys. It is interesting that once pointed out, the shakers seem too loud, but otherwise, people just listen, not listen for something. I'm thrilled to have the opportunity to even be considering two masters.
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Post by tonycamphd on May 6, 2016 9:54:51 GMT -6
the song is good, the performances are good, pulling the shakers down was a good idea, overall the mix is a bit bloat/muddy in the low mids causing freq masking, and there's a bit of lurchy/stridency on the consonants TME, pretty good overall though if you ask me.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 6, 2016 10:02:29 GMT -6
the song is good, the performances are good, pulling the shakers down was a good idea, overall the mix is a bit bloat/muddy in the low mids causing freq masking, and there's a bit of lurchy/stridency on the consonants TME, pretty good overall though if you ask me. I can't believe you didn't come in and tell me that I crushed the life out of it. |
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Post by tonycamphd on May 6, 2016 10:53:28 GMT -6
the song is good, the performances are good, pulling the shakers down was a good idea, overall the mix is a bit bloat/muddy in the low mids causing freq masking, and there's a bit of lurchy/stridency on the consonants TME, pretty good overall though if you ask me. I can't believe you didn't come in and tell me that I crushed the life out of it. I tell it like i hear it, nothing more or less, isn't that why you love me? 8) |
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 6, 2016 11:01:29 GMT -6
I can't believe you didn't come in and tell me that I crushed the life out of it. I tell it like i hear it, nothing more or less, isn't that why you love me? 8) It is. I dig a straight shooter. The best way to improve is through honest criticism. |
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Post by iamasound on May 6, 2016 12:01:29 GMT -6
Both incarnations work for me, and either seem to pass muster with the gathered as nothing is blaringly off kilter, rather it is mixed and mastered well to me. The song is wonderful in its telling, easy on the ears though hard in its truth in the hard light of the violent history of mankind, versions of this song playing out in real time to real people far too often, different singers singing a similar dirge, sadly. I vote for A on a whim.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 6, 2016 14:43:47 GMT -6
I do need to improve my handling of the bass. It's either boomy/muddy or too light. The stridency on consonants is my fault, my voice is just that way, and I'm working on it. I thought it was my mic, so I jumped through hoops to get the newly designed Blackspade UM17R Mk II. It is one of the least sibilant mics I've ever heard, yet it still had the sound I was trying to avoid. Same thing with the $3,500 Soyuz 0-17, the 2k Soyuz 0-19 FET, and the Avantone CV95 I just tried, so it was me all along.
This was about as good as I could get it at home, all things considered. I'm looking forward to recording in other places again, hopefully :-)
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