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Post by mrholmes on Apr 29, 2016 9:35:10 GMT -6
I RGO.
When it comes to toms with bleed its always a compromise to me.
I can use the SSL Gate but that also shortens the length of the tom hit... I can cut it but this also shortens the length off the hit.
Leaving the tracks untouched sounds wrong too because the bleed is a lot.
Which decision would a pro AE do using the gate, cutting....?
Cheers
Mr. Holmes
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 29, 2016 9:38:31 GMT -6
Depends on the music, but most rock guys are going to cut each tom hit or replace if totally necessary. If I'm doing blues, jazz, acoustic, I'd probably just drop the tom mics and rely more on the overs.
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Post by jazznoise on Apr 29, 2016 10:02:24 GMT -6
I normally just do edits, but sometimes an expander just seems to sound nicer. I'd never gate 100%, usually about 6dBb seems like the most you'll get. We've had the debate here before, some people just find the changes in the timbre of the cymbals too distracting. If it's a dense mix, you'll get away with it, if it's not you wont.
When mic'ing the toms it's good to try and keep the bleed down, but also try and avoid positions where the bleed sounds particularly offensive.
When I'm really desperate there's more unusual tricks like using an expander to trigger the overheads or toms when the toms get hit for a bit of extra bloom. Again, you may or may not get away with it.
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Post by jdc on Apr 29, 2016 10:12:13 GMT -6
Copy your Tom track and put a high pass on one to capture the attack and low pass on the other to capture the resonance. On the high passed track cut it so that you only get the Tom attack with as little bleed as you want. Extend the low passed track out further until the resonance decays and releases. A corner frequency of 200-400 works well depending on how the Tom is tuned, adjust accordingly.
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Post by strangeways on Apr 29, 2016 10:23:20 GMT -6
The best decision i ever made was to turn down my overheads (i am currently not even using OH mics) and rely on a mono ribbon FOK mic about 5 ft in front of the kick. Just about level with the rack tom, pointed at the snare and centered between crash and ride. I use my room mics (10ft out and about 10ft apart) to take care of stereo image/cymbals and stopped gating/automating toms. The tom bleed works well for close imaging on ride/crash when I pan the toms at about 34L/55R. I don't usually do much eqing on toms aside from cuts in the lows, and I mic with Oktava 012's with card caps. If I do gate, never more than 3-6db. Hard gates make the cymbals jump out and make it obvious there is a gate.
Hope that can help.
d.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 29, 2016 10:45:42 GMT -6
The best decision i ever made was to turn down my overheads (i am currently not even using OH mics) and rely on a mono ribbon FOK mic about 5 ft in front of the kick. Just about level with the rack tom, pointed at the snare and centered between crash and ride. I use my room mics (10ft out and about 10ft apart) to take care of stereo image/cymbals and stopped gating/automating toms. The tom bleed works well for close imaging on ride/crash when I pan the toms at about 34L/55R. I don't usually do much eqing on toms aside from cuts in the lows, and I mic with Oktava 012's with card caps. If I do gate, never more than 3-6db. Hard gates make the cymbals jump out and make it obvious there is a gate. Hope that can help. d. Hey strangeways, are you the RI Strangeways? |
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Post by svart on Apr 29, 2016 10:51:25 GMT -6
I cut the tom hits slightly after the attack, use the Reaper auto fade as the new attack, and then cut about 20% off the tail and fade out with a different fade profile. I do this for each hit.
Works great.
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Post by strangeways on Apr 29, 2016 11:02:15 GMT -6
The best decision i ever made was to turn down my overheads (i am currently not even using OH mics) and rely on a mono ribbon FOK mic about 5 ft in front of the kick. Just about level with the rack tom, pointed at the snare and centered between crash and ride. I use my room mics (10ft out and about 10ft apart) to take care of stereo image/cymbals and stopped gating/automating toms. The tom bleed works well for close imaging on ride/crash when I pan the toms at about 34L/55R. I don't usually do much eqing on toms aside from cuts in the lows, and I mic with Oktava 012's with card caps. If I do gate, never more than 3-6db. Hard gates make the cymbals jump out and make it obvious there is a gate. Hope that can help. d. Hey strangeways , are you the RI Strangeways? I was 1/2 of it. Mike Poorman owned the place. I helped run it in VT and RI. It has since closed. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 29, 2016 12:09:43 GMT -6
I was 1/2 of it. Mike Poorman owned the place. I helped run it in VT and RI. It has since closed. Nice. I went to a benefit show for you probably close to 10 years ago I think. You guys did the Bad Rabbits / EC stuff right? Some KNK too? |
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Post by noah shain on Apr 29, 2016 12:16:05 GMT -6
If it's a real modern, hyper compressed vibe I will edit the tom tracks AND do a hard gate. 100% off. I like to use the gate to control the decay of the toms.
If it's a more relaxed feeling track I don't edit and don't gate. I just ride those babies.
Toms for me are pretty heavily eq'd. Big cuts during tracking. If it's a dense, compressed track they get another big cut around 700 and a boost around 3-5k again at mix.
When I was recording with my bands...eons ago...a couple engineers would have me ride the tom faders and record the automation. I'm still doing it that way when I can.
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Post by strangeways on Apr 29, 2016 12:19:58 GMT -6
I was 1/2 of it. Mike Poorman owned the place. I helped run it in VT and RI. It has since closed. Nice. I went to a benefit show for you probably close to 10 years ago I think. You guys did the Bad Rabbits / EC stuff right? Some KNK too? That was me!!! After my brush with death. EC did an album with us in VT. And BR did some early stuff with us. And Sheel's other band Irepress did their second full length with us too. Miss that studio!!! And i'm still kicking myself for not grabbing that Neotek when Mike closed up shop. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 29, 2016 12:24:38 GMT -6
Nice. I went to a benefit show for you probably close to 10 years ago I think. You guys did the Bad Rabbits / EC stuff right? Some KNK too? That was me!!! After my brush with death. EC did an album with us in VT. And BR did some early stuff with us. And Sheel's other band Irepress did their second full length with us too. Miss that studio!!! And i'm still kicking myself for not grabbing that Neotek when Mike closed up shop. At the time of the benefit, the singer in my band was dating Dua from EC/BR. Where ya at now? |
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Post by strangeways on Apr 29, 2016 12:33:57 GMT -6
That was me!!! After my brush with death. EC did an album with us in VT. And BR did some early stuff with us. And Sheel's other band Irepress did their second full length with us too. Miss that studio!!! And i'm still kicking myself for not grabbing that Neotek when Mike closed up shop. At the time of the benefit, the singer in my band was dating Dua from EC/BR. Where ya at now? I still live in Providence. Been recording most of my projects at a solar studio in Clinton, CT called Radar. Just did the new Doomsday Student (ex Arab on Radar) there a month ago. theradarstudio.comI'm actually building out the Jamstage room to allow for bands to do live tracking/demos right now. Hopefully get that going so i'll have a space up here. Where you at? D. |
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 29, 2016 13:44:26 GMT -6
If it's a real modern, hyper compressed vibe I will edit the tom tracks AND do a hard gate. 100% off. I like to use the gate to control the decay of the toms. If it's a more relaxed feeling track I don't edit and don't gate. I just ride those babies. Toms for me are pretty heavily eq'd. Big cuts during tracking. If it's a dense, compressed track they get another big cut around 700 and a boost around 3-5k again at mix. When I was recording with my bands...eons ago...a couple engineers would have me ride the tom faders and record the automation. I'm still doing it that way when I can. A lot of good information thank you so much guys. @noah shain your one was the hammer on the nail now they sound like I know them by my favorite records. I still had to do some cuts but who cares. The best tip in this was cutting around 700 Hz it made them sit right and some 1176 sauce as topping..... 80% of the work is done. The rest is automation. |
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Post by noah shain on Apr 29, 2016 20:22:04 GMT -6
If it's a real modern, hyper compressed vibe I will edit the tom tracks AND do a hard gate. 100% off. I like to use the gate to control the decay of the toms. If it's a more relaxed feeling track I don't edit and don't gate. I just ride those babies. Toms for me are pretty heavily eq'd. Big cuts during tracking. If it's a dense, compressed track they get another big cut around 700 and a boost around 3-5k again at mix. When I was recording with my bands...eons ago...a couple engineers would have me ride the tom faders and record the automation. I'm still doing it that way when I can. A lot of good information thank you so much guys. @noah shain your one was the hammer on the nail now they sound like I know them by my favorite records. I still had to do some cuts but who cares. The best tip in this was cutting around 700 Hz it made them sit right and some 1176 sauce as topping..... 80% of the work is done. The rest is automation. Right on! Yep. I cut 700 tracking and usually again mixing. Sometimes in mix it's 700-ISH. Maybe 800 or 600 or lower. I think it's the 1073 Eq that cemented 700 at tracking. I rarely compress toms on an insert. Usually just parallel. Glad you're sorted!!! |
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 30, 2016 6:02:15 GMT -6
A lot of good information thank you so much guys. @noah shain your one was the hammer on the nail now they sound like I know them by my favorite records. I still had to do some cuts but who cares. The best tip in this was cutting around 700 Hz it made them sit right and some 1176 sauce as topping..... 80% of the work is done. The rest is automation. Right on! Yep. I cut 700 tracking and usually again mixing. Sometimes in mix it's 700-ISH. Maybe 800 or 600 or lower. I think it's the 1073 Eq that cemented 700 at tracking. I rarely compress toms on an insert. Usually just parallel. Glad you're sorted!!! I did use the 4 k E EQ and 10 db of compression inserted. In parralel the transients stick out too much. They are played with great DR but it doesnt fit the song, I had to put them down. Btw the UAD 1176 Blue Stripe Sounds fantastic on those Toms. One of the better plug ins IMO. |
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Post by drbill on Apr 30, 2016 12:02:22 GMT -6
Personally, if I'm recording the drums, I embrace the bleed. I like the tone of the kit better WITH the tom mics on than without them.
Use a mic that you LIKE the sound of the bleed. For me, 421's are the most horrible offenders. Mics I like the sound of the tom bleed are U87's, Oktavamod 219PE's (fav - for their cool woody tone), and CAD M177/179's.
Of course, if you're getting the tracks from someone else, you get what you get. In those cases I edit around the tom fills if possible.
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Post by jazznoise on Apr 30, 2016 15:23:46 GMT -6
strangeways , nice to have you here. I'm a big Arab on Radar fan, cool to hear people are working on that kind of stuff.
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 30, 2016 15:28:19 GMT -6
Personally, if I'm recording the drums, I embrace the bleed. I like the tone of the kit better WITH the tom mics on than without them. Use a mic that you LIKE the sound of the bleed. For me, 421's are the most horrible offenders. Mics I like the sound of the tom bleed are U87's, Oktavamod 219PE's (fav - for their cool woody tone), and CAD M177/179's. Of course, if you're getting the tracks from someone else, you get what you get. In those cases I edit around the tom fills if possible. Thanks for the input. I just get sometimes tracks to mix usually by friends. My small studio is just for the tracks I compose myself. Very often cutting bleed seems to be a compromise. In the rack tom there is more than one time a big cymbal hit to hear it ruins the image of the OH I have to cut this out. I wish I could make the OH sound broader, without any stereo fxs, in the chorus - any hint for this? |
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Post by jazznoise on Apr 30, 2016 15:46:28 GMT -6
Well, what's your overhead array? ABs are the widest sounding, but I'm not a huge fan as sole kit mics. Close XY/Blumlein works best for me.
Things like XY have a stereo angle of about 180 degrees. If you aren't going fully out to the far right and left of the array, you won't get the full spread of the array. In some ways mic'ing from the drummers position will give a better spread because of this, but I almost never do it because that's another stand that may end obstructing a drummer.
I prefer a close coincidental pair and a distant omni AB pair, usually with the AB as wide as the kit. Needs to have a hole in the middle, for me, as I'll also be running a mono room mic between them.
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 30, 2016 15:54:23 GMT -6
ime tom bleed smears phase, robs power, if you're going to close mic, use gates or edit around them, if not, use minimal mics and don't mic the toms, btw, it's not either or, most gates have a range control, and then there is always clip gain for editing.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,952 
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Post by ericn on Apr 30, 2016 17:32:57 GMT -6
ime tom bleed smears phase, robs power, if you're going to close mic, use gates or edit around them, if not, use minimal mics and don't mic the toms, btw, it's not either or, most gates have a range control, and then there is always clip gain for editing. Over the years I have found I use a version of the Earthworks approach, but I still close mic everything for a bit of balancing, if you have a great drummer who will listen a good room and time, you need far less mics. |
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Post by Ward on May 2, 2016 7:25:42 GMT -6
Personally, if I'm recording the drums, I embrace the bleed. I like the tone of the kit better WITH the tom mics on than without them. Use a mic that you LIKE the sound of the bleed. For me, 421's are the most horrible offenders. Mics I like the sound of the tom bleed are U87's, Oktavamod 219PE's (fav - for their cool woody tone), and CAD M177/179's. Of course, if you're getting the tracks from someone else, you get what you get. In those cases I edit around the tom fills if possible. You have that right, sir! 421 bleed just sounds awful. But oddly enough, the CAD 179 sounds like the direct source from a 421 but without the nasty bleed! They should be heavily marketing that one as "THE tom tom microphone" for our age. Best cheap purchase I think I ever made. |
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Post by mrholmes on May 2, 2016 8:48:13 GMT -6
In the tracks which I have I have some awful loud SD hits on the toms which destroy the image of SD position.
The Band wants to keep those tracks.... sigh... suddenly you have the impression the snare changed the position.
I did cuts to find the best compromise but that is mhhhh
Anyway... its up to them I advised to replace it.
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Post by drbill on May 2, 2016 9:22:12 GMT -6
When you get the tom mics RIGHT, I think it adds to the excitement and live sound of the drums. Something I'm always looking for. (Isn't that what drums are all about?) If at all possible, I keep em in the mix. But they are not LOUD in the mix - they are there for stick attack and a little presence. For the last decade or so I've been using Gefell M71S or UM70's on OH almost exclusively, and honestly, if I had to go without tom mics, I'd be OK 70% of the time. Tony is right though, if the tom mics are WRONG or the drummer is not good or the engineer doesn't do it right, the tom bleed can kill the drum sound with phasing issues.
I'm lucky that these days I normally record the drums that I have to mix. Ward has it right above.....the CADs are the answer often. Certainly they are the inexpensive answer. But I do like the 219PE's better for a more organic woody sound. If more modern, the CADs get the nod.
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