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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2013 23:30:41 GMT -6
OK, at the risk of being stoned... I have a Nashville album that is my typical reference. Keith Urban: Get Closer and Defying Gravity Reasons: - No, I'm not Gay
- No, I am not involved with a Nashville agenda
- The open top of these records - mixed by Justin Neibank. There is space up there without a lot of clutter... I REALLY like that in a production. all that is there is what needs to be there.
- The use of space as you move form song to song. They give several different examples of how to use the space - for reference
- The sounds are natural but punchy enough to rock
- The vocals aren't washed in treatment - a natural sounding voice rides the crest well in some dense mixes
- Guitars fill their space - only
They aren't ground breaking albums but they are done very well to me. Ok, how about you... |
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Post by henge on Oct 25, 2013 12:28:23 GMT -6
For power punk pop...Green Day 21st century breakdown
for songwriter...Shawn Colvin A few small repairs
for pop Maroon 5 Hands all over
For just checking kick and snare Thomas Dolby Aliens ate my buick (the kick and bass on this are phenomenal imo )
Unfortunately my old standards no longer apply because of the loudness wars.
Used to be Peter Gabriel So, Lyle Lovett Joshua judges Ruth, Toy matinee, Steely Dan Aja, Bonnie Raitt Nick of time, Peter gabriel Security.
That being said I just realized I haven't used a reference for the past 6 mos or so!!! Maybe it's time to get back to the practice!LOL
Thanks for that reco Heartfelt! I need a modern country reference...
I'm off to BUY the CD.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 25, 2013 14:58:34 GMT -6
I love Justin Neibank's mixes...Check out the new one that Reid Shippen mixed...
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 25, 2013 15:00:06 GMT -6
@heartfelt I reaaaallly had to stop myself from adding, "gay Keith Urban fan" to your profile status...  |
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Post by mobeach on Oct 25, 2013 16:21:14 GMT -6
I like Urbans tunes.. except that Whole lot of everything or whatever it's called.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2013 17:18:15 GMT -6
@heartfelt I reaaaallly had to stop myself from adding, "gay Keith Urban fan" to your profile status... Thank you for the mercy! LOL |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2013 17:21:27 GMT -6
I don't like Urban's latest as much. I don't love the writing but more on the sound side, I don't care for all the high freq energy/activity. If you compare the latest to the previous, you will see what I mean.
Interesting Henge, what you say about old standards in context with modern requirements. I love the album "SO" but not only is it not loud "enough", it doesn't have the low end either. However, it sounds stellar anyway.
What do you use John, if anything?
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Post by popmann on Oct 25, 2013 20:34:39 GMT -6
Why would you use a reference track when mixing?
....not a smart ass question. Intended for you to examine what it is you actually hope to gleen from it....
There are a few really serious pitfalls to this method. Not the least of which is that mixes haven't gotten (significantly) louder. You're just not hearing them anymore.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 25, 2013 22:18:23 GMT -6
JMO, but i believe you can pick up a lot from referencing, i can spend too much time in a mix and lose my bearings, an old shoe recording can realign the senses, i know some serious pro's who do this as well, also having a CD of mixes you're very familiar with, on a trip to an unfamiliar studio, is an absolute must. It gives you tangible feedback to the new environment. I would be absolutely terrified in a new studio with out a couple of my fav CD's to reference before getting started...even with my own monitors some of the references i like ABBA, Earth wind fire, sting, Chi peppers, james taylor.. the loudness thing means nothing to me, mastering guys can deal with that, and yes, i'm totally Gay for ABBA  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 25, 2013 22:54:50 GMT -6
It's like cleansing the palette...You should try it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2013 11:39:12 GMT -6
What are the pitfalls to you Popman?
I like having a target. A reference track reminds me to high and low pass guitars, how much heft is too much on kick, what a good spacious snare (not reverberant) sounds like, to make good use of space and other things.
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Post by cenafria on Oct 26, 2013 12:23:28 GMT -6
Reference tracks are a must when working at a new place. At our studio I sometimes listen to a couple of tracks before the band comes in. It gets me in the right frame of mind for the session. I do enjoy listening to records in the control room if we don't have a session.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2013 13:23:19 GMT -6
There's lots of good reasons to use references. Take a track that you feel has too much "x" and reference it against it, make sure it's not too far. Green Day stuff is great for what I do, I use it for drum sounds and I also use it reference guitar levels as I feel American Idiots guitars are extremely loud (Whatsername).
I don't do it too often though, I'm at a point where I can usually trust my instinct and a quick check is all I need but I use to be crazy with referencing stuff.
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Post by popmann on Oct 26, 2013 17:48:22 GMT -6
What are the pitfalls to you Popman? I like having a target. A reference track reminds me to high and low pass guitars, how much heft is too much on kick, what a good spacious snare (not reverberant) sounds like, to make good use of space and other things. So, I guess I stepped in it, so to speak... there are a couple. The biggest being the track you're mixing isn't the track you're listening to....you shouldn't be trying to get it to sound like X when it sounds like Y. You say the right amount of kick--but, kicks all sound different--so technically, there isn't a right level--since one that it all attack may or may not (depending on arrangement) cut through--or sometimes it needs volume....or distortion...or whatever to cut through. Then there's you comparing a master to a live mix. Not even to an optimized full scale mix. So, you'd need to import the track (ie not use a disc) so you can set the fader to like -18dbfs on the reference track. And if you do that, I bet you don't want your mix to sound that shitty and small. But, that's the other thing--I've been in this biz a long time. Mixes have always been double digit dynamic ranges. Somewhere between DR18 and DR11. Most CD masters of the last 20 years have been pushed to DR7-4. The more mainstream, the closer to 4. Fundamentally, that COMPLETELY changes the balance....and with it the perception of tone. There is no such thing as transparently losing 10(or more) DB of dynamic range. So, if you're trying to make a MIX reference with everything crushed within 5DB of range...you WILL make a lousy mix. Good news is you won't need to master it.  Related: above someone mentioned a Gabriel record not having modern low end. I'd venture it has pretty close to it. Stick an L3 on it and blast it from DR12 to DR6. See how how much low end there is. I know I was listening to the Eagles 24.192 remasters last night and thinking I've never HEARD a record with this much low end--but it's dynamic. Like it was when they mixed it. Modern 24/192 Latte conversion may have kept it with the classA electronics from the tape deck...but, they maintained DR11/12 through the catalog, which is amazing, considering low frequencies eat dynamic range measurement for breakfast. I'd bet if you HPF it at 75hz, those masters would be DR14/15. So, I mean--there are a number of reasons to reference familiar material--as mentioned strange rooms...auditioning conversion and monitoring...If you're intent on mastering to X level, I'd venture it would be helpful there, since you're comparing like to like. But, masters north of say 1994 are not likely close to the mix. Which is what you're creating. I think it's given people new to the process an unrealistic goal that they don't seem to understand. I recently saw a CLA interview where he said his basic mixing balances haven't changed for his adult career. Right. He's turning in double digit DR mixes like everyone else. Believe me....if it helps you, use it. I certainly did when I was a young engineer. But, that was also before the masters and the mixes were so far removed from each other. It was good ear training--matching this snare to that one...trying to get the balances of disperate arrangements as close as I could...but, I don't think it made the specific mixes better directly. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2013 19:07:42 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing... I think to myself that if I was working daily with weekly releases, I wouldn't need it as much. Another thing is that despite my bass traps and other room treatment, it is not an engineered room and thus is not perfect. I do rely on knowing my monitors and having heard the reference tracks in multiple places, it is a big help.
You make some great points and I do many times consider the mastering aspect. I know others do as well and thus, we wish there was a way to have "mixes" of familiar tunes. What a help that would be. Thanks for malking me think. I believe I am sharp enough to use them to the degree that they are useful.
I am certainly old enough to remember tunes from the 70's forward but with your statement about 1994, can you recc' material that is close enough to the modern aesthetic but still close to the mix?
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Post by henge on Oct 27, 2013 11:28:30 GMT -6
popmann, thanks for the wisdom.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 27, 2013 12:52:07 GMT -6
At Motown in Detroit we always had the top five in the Billboard chart sitting on the console for reference. The only exception was we kept "Honky Tonk Woman" in the pile for several years because we just couldn't put it away.
It's about a benchmark for excitement as opposed to one for sound or balance.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 27, 2013 13:18:40 GMT -6
Holy moly, welcome Mr. Olhsson!! i'm excited about you being here!!
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Post by svart on Oct 29, 2013 15:21:34 GMT -6
I generally ask the band what sound they are going for and to give me examples of songs and bands that they are like. I then listen to a playlist of that stuff through the studio monitors while doing mundane tasks like cleaning and putting stuff away or setting things up. That way I get the way it sounds on my system so I'm more inclined to make it sound like that when mixing. Seems to work to a point, but my gear and my mixing still sounds like me as well.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Oct 30, 2013 19:43:56 GMT -6
@heartfelt I reaaaallly had to stop myself from adding, "gay Keith Urban fan" to your profile status... OHH pick me up out of floor... |
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Oct 31, 2013 13:55:38 GMT -6
Don't know if I'd call it a "reference" album but Paisely's American Saturday Night is the sound I shoot for. Fact is, everything I've heard produced at The Castle is what I shoot for. Bad ass studio that one.
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