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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 11, 2016 16:55:11 GMT -6
Maybe I didn't title this thread correctly and some will correct me...but here's my situation.
I think I have a cable out of phase somewhere in my chain. Noticed that - in my headphones - when I reverse the phase, the sound is bigger and thicker. I assume that means that something is out of phase along the way, right? Is "phase" the issue there? Now - does that even matter? When you record the signal in, it sounds no differently when you reverse the phase - as there's nothing for it to phase with. So, why am I hearing a phasing problem in my headphones? I also noticed that when I use a particular outboard peice, it comes back with the phase flipped. Gotta be one of the cables, right? Again - does it even matter with a mono signal?
So -
1. Does phase on a mono signal really matter?
2. Why am I hearing phase issues in my headphones but the recorded track sounds the same and doesn't seem to suffer from the phase issue?
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Post by EmRR on Mar 11, 2016 18:07:33 GMT -6
Asymmetric speech/singing tends to be more intelligible if it is phased correctly. Old old old common fact. Many horns are highly asymmetric.
Aside from that, 'fix your broke shit' is why it matters. : )
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Post by rocinante on Mar 11, 2016 21:58:09 GMT -6
It'll screw you eventually and no its not always the cable. Some older (and in some cases not so much older) gear was built with pin 1 hot. There are countless articles on it but in essence it will cancel itself out eventually so its best to fix it. I recorded a magnificent performance by a gypsy jazz trio out of phase that to this day hurts my stomach.
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Post by jazznoise on Mar 13, 2016 6:52:55 GMT -6
When the signal path is linear, absolute phase is irrelevant. Asymmetry in speaker response and distortion response may cause differences, but in most modern kit it should be fine. Otherwise everything from the rear end of a figure 8 would sound terrible. It can't be "out of phase" with a single mic. Usually the issue is something that sounds similar to phase issues in multi mic arrays - comb filtering, weird ER patterns, tuning issues or the musicians themselves are poorly placed.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 13, 2016 9:24:56 GMT -6
I just don't understand why - when I reverse the phase on the mic - it changes in my headphones. Bottom and top end get smaller - sounds out of phase.
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 13, 2016 9:37:24 GMT -6
I just don't understand why - when I reverse the phase on the mic - it changes in my headphones. Bottom and top end get smaller - sounds out of phase. If i'm understanding correctly? and an oversimplification, your ear is used to being compressed by a transient, an IP transient pushes your headphone/monitor driver OUTWARD, an OOP transient pulls the headphone/driver INWARD, a very unusual event, and if your listening to multiple instruments... say Tower of Power type horn stabs, and all the brass is IP pushing the drivers OUT during a stab, except for the trumpet is 180* OOP trying to pull the drivers IN during the stab..., it's bad news for obvious reasons. BTW JK, i haven't a clue on the STA- tubes... |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 13, 2016 9:51:20 GMT -6
No - I'm listening to my voice as it comes back in the headphones. I can hear myself in the mic...everything is fine, then press the phase button and bottom and top get smaller like it's out of phase. I'm going mic--patchbay--pre--converter. Headphones are connected via ADAT from the Apollo.
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Post by mulmany on Mar 13, 2016 10:26:16 GMT -6
Pick yourself up a galaxy audio cricket, it's a cable tester, mic/speaker polarity checker. I have found it an invaluable recording tool.
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 13, 2016 10:51:57 GMT -6
No - I'm listening to my voice as it comes back in the headphones. I can hear myself in the mic...everything is fine, then press the phase button and bottom and top get smaller like it's out of phase. I'm going mic--patchbay--pre--converter. Headphones are connected via ADAT from the Apollo. because you're flipping the phase 180*, the speakers are initially pulling in instead of pushing out, it's a physical difference. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 13, 2016 11:34:24 GMT -6
OK I'm not trying to be a moron, but then why does that not sound different over the monitors?
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Post by EmRR on Mar 13, 2016 11:57:10 GMT -6
That is a common fallacy. I reiterate the bit about human voice intelligibility, that is 60+ year old established fundamental knowledge: which means it's easily forgotten or ignored today for lack of obvious painful repercussion.
Pretty much anyone can tell their own voice polarity in headphones. Guys who play trombone will probably hate the sound you get if it's reversed.
Monitor question: room nodes, less than ideal speakers, etc. You can hear it clearly in a (proper) mastering or mixing room. I know (long established respected high $) mastering guys who will flip polarity on a mix if the vocal fullness improves.
There's an XTC record that was reissued with 'correct polarity' restored for the first time, a big deal was made about it. You can flip that record's polarity and it does sound better one way versus the other.
You can take a broadcast limiter that allows greater than 100% modulation on positive peaks for AM radio use, and make sounds seem to pop out of the speakers, or likewise sink into them with the output reverse polarity. This is also one of the secrets of those Federal tube compressors; they source the side chain from one side of the waveform rather than a mix of the two.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 13, 2016 12:33:24 GMT -6
Is this when you are monitoring via headphone (mixing) or tracking vocals with cans? If it''s while tracking vocals then it's your voice in your body (bone transmission, chest resonance, etc.) being out of phase with the return of your voice in the headphones. Think about it, you hear your voice inside you instantly whereas the return is delayed - classic phase issue like combining a bass amp and a DI. Just flip the polarity to whichever sounds better to you as ultimately it is mono and won't matter If it's doing while you're just mixing then, yeah, a cable/piece of gear is wonky Yeah - when I'm tracking... So what your'e saying is my bones are out of phase?  |
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Post by EmRR on Mar 13, 2016 13:09:51 GMT -6
I'm saying you can clearly hear your own voice out of phase in headphones. Pretty much everyone can.
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 13, 2016 13:42:34 GMT -6
Is this when you are monitoring via headphone (mixing) or tracking vocals with cans? If it''s while tracking vocals then it's your voice in your body (bone transmission, chest resonance, etc.) being out of phase with the return of your voice in the headphones. Think about it, you hear your voice inside you instantly whereas the return is delayed - classic phase issue like combining a bass amp and a DI. Just flip the polarity to whichever sounds better to you as ultimately it is mono and won't matter If it's doing while you're just mixing then, yeah, a cable/piece of gear is wonky Yeah - when I'm tracking... So what your'e saying is my bones are out of phase? Headphones take room modes/anti modes out of the equation, hence very easy to hear, they're almost like a suction cup on ur ear |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Mar 13, 2016 14:56:57 GMT -6
Jim Johnston told me that there is every reason to expect to hear a difference but you can't prove anything because there are no symmetrical transducers. The skeptic crowd fabricated the idea that you can't hear it out of thin air and their expectation bias convinces them that it must be true.
Headphone phase is a pretty big deal because the sound from your voice needs to be in phase with the monitored audio. The mike, the headphones and anything in the signal path could be flipping it. Back in the '30s and '40s radio announcers tested to find the best sounding side of an RCA 44 for their voice.
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Post by wiz on Mar 13, 2016 15:42:04 GMT -6
I mentioned this a couple of years ago... I have the same thing Johnkennjust flip the phase... You will also notice it with headphones on when you sing into one side of a mic with Figure 8 compared to the other. Some people get really affected by this, I am one, sounds like you are too..... Its only on your voice, and only when you are singing with cans on... you won't hear it on play back. cheers Wiz |
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Post by jazznoise on Mar 13, 2016 16:51:32 GMT -6
Headphone phase is a pretty big deal because the sound from your voice needs to be in phase with the monitored audio. The mike, the headphones and anything in the signal path could be flipping it. Back in the '30s and '40s radio announcers tested to find the best sounding side of an RCA 44 for their voice. This. The issue is that the latency from your throat to your ears vs. your mic through your AD/DA and back to your cans will be different. It's 2 signals, not one. It's not polarity, it's phase. |
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Post by EmRR on Mar 13, 2016 18:40:02 GMT -6
It's not latency when it's someone else's voice.
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