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Post by ragan on Feb 23, 2016 2:41:30 GMT -6
I spent tonight doing some session work at a really nice studio here. I've tracked there many times before but not since I became obsessed with building my own studio and chasing my own sonic shangri la.
The owner/operator is a seasoned pro whose made many records you've probably heard of. He knows what he's doing and has a successful career as a producer/mix engineer.
It really struck me how different his approach to "gear" is than us forum-frequenters. For example. He's got a rack of original 1073s. The kind of thing my jaw drops at (at least a little). He doesn't care about their pedigree. He uses them mostly for electric guitars. For lead vox and almost everything else he uses the Vintech version. Says they breakup smoother and aren't as pointy and he just likes them better for most things. He's got a massive SSL 6000 with the classic bus compressor right in the middle. He uses Chameleon Labs 7720s more often (has several, along with 7802s). He's got several Neumann's, which he uses a lot, but right there with them on the drum tracks are Oktava 219s. They sounded fantastic.
There's no gear worship. This guy is in the trenches making good records and getting shit done every day. Tonight while tracking the Urei's were off, the Distressors were on. There are a couple lovely 2" tape machines sitting there and he still uses Slate VTM quite a bit. Says he loves it.
I just found the whole thing noteworthy. I spend a lot of time here and on GS getting caught up in the various conversations about esoteric minutiae (which, truth be told, I enjoy and find interesting) and this true professional is on Pro Tools 8, with a machine room full of older Digi 192's, not really watching his levels that much, using some totally obtainable gear while legendary stuff sits idle and just getting truly killer tones quickly and efficiently. He doesn't care what the pedigree of any piece is, he's there to make things sound good, and he does it with whatever is quickest and easiest in a given situation. Plugin, hardware, expensive, cheap - doesn't give a shit about any of it, just gets good sounds.
Anyway. It struck me and I thought I was worth sharing. That's all.
Use what you have and what works and get on with it! It's better that way.
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Post by henge on Feb 23, 2016 6:05:54 GMT -6
I spent tonight doing some session work at a really nice studio here. I've tracked there many times before but not since I became obsessed with building my own studio and chasing my own sonic shangri la. The owner/operator is a seasoned pro whose made many records you've probably heard of. He knows what he's doing and has a successful career as a producer/mix engineer. It really struck me how different his approach to "gear" is than us forum-frequenters. For example. He's got a rack of original 1073s. The kind of thing my jaw drops at (at least a little). He doesn't care about their pedigree. He uses them mostly for electric guitars. For lead vox and almost everything else he uses the Vintech version. Says they breakup smoother and aren't as pointy and he just likes them better for most things. He's got a massive SSL 6000 with the classic bus compressor right in the middle. He uses Chameleon Labs 7720s more often (has several, along with 7802s). He's got several Neumann's, which he uses a lot, but right there with them on the drum tracks are Oktava 219s. They sounded fantastic. There's no gear worship. This guy is in the trenches making good records and getting shit done every day. Tonight while tracking the Urei's were off, the Distressors were on. There are a couple lovely 2" tape machines sitting there and he still uses Slate VTM quite a bit. Says he loves it. I just found the whole thing noteworthy. I spend a lot of time here and on GS getting caught up in the various conversations about esoteric minutiae (which, truth be told, I enjoy and find interesting) and this true professional is on Pro Tools 8, with a machine room full of older Digi 192's, not really watching his levels that much, using some totally obtainable gear while legendary stuff sits idle and just getting truly killer tones quickly and efficiently. He doesn't care what the pedigree of any piece is, he's there to make things sound good, and he does it with whatever is quickest and easiest in a given situation. Plugin, hardware, expensive, cheap - doesn't give a shit about any of it, just gets good sounds. Anyway. It struck me and I thought I was worth sharing. That's all. Use what you have and what works and get on with it! It's better that way. Excellent post!!
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Post by chasmanian on Feb 23, 2016 6:23:41 GMT -6
post of the year material. bravo!!
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Post by EmRR on Feb 23, 2016 6:37:24 GMT -6
Yes! The older pro's I came up around did not care one bit what the equipment was, so long as it worked. They still don't. They still have more hit records than I.
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Post by chasmanian on Feb 23, 2016 6:44:16 GMT -6
yeah, man, we're so blinded by the hype. we want the easy magic piece of gear, that instantly turns us into uber successful magic producing engineers and performers. holy grail search for tone. I get it. been on it for years. not meaning to put down anyone or anything they do. really talking to myself here out loud for all to hear. you in there (talking to me), put down the computer. you've got great gear. make music. the magic is in your mind and heart and soul. and hands for playing musical instruments (and feet for keys sustain pedal and drum foot pedals). go forth. make music. be happy.
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Post by Ward on Feb 23, 2016 6:53:39 GMT -6
But in the defense of sought-after well-known pieces of gear, they are sought after and well known because they work and give us the results we want. Every time.
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Post by joseph on Feb 23, 2016 6:56:57 GMT -6
Okay, but I need a 10,000 mic that has more air for shitty pop vocals.
Or was it a 5000 dollar bus compressor for kill yourself EDM?
Point is, I have priorities, unlike the old farts.
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Post by chasmanian on Feb 23, 2016 7:13:02 GMT -6
But in the defense of sought-after well-known pieces of gear, they are sought after and well known because they work and give us the results we want. Every time. roger that brother. this is all just really me talking about me. I love great gear, man. freakin lovvvvvvvvvvvvve it. alot!!! lol I am a recovering gearslut. lol i'm seeking balance. somewhere there is a balance. and spending more time making music, and less reading about gear, for me, is a good idea. whatever works for others, is great. I guess I'm just kind giving myself some advice.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 23, 2016 7:29:34 GMT -6
I'll some it up as simple as I can, Tools VS Toys. Most of the GAS hype comes from the home hobbiest. Yes there is a small group of pros who are all about the gear, but most are the guys sitting at home chasing that elusive tone that makes them not suck!
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Post by Ward on Feb 23, 2016 7:35:49 GMT -6
Okay, but I need a 10,000 mic that has more air for shitty pop vocals. Or was it a 5000 dollar bus compressor for kill yourself EDM? Point is, I have priorities, unlike the old farts. EDM? Oh no, my friend... you need a macbook (not even a pro) and Appollo duo and tons of tons of plug-in loudness maximizers. And the 'Focusing EQ'.
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Post by RicFoxx on Feb 23, 2016 7:43:37 GMT -6
Yep that 7720 sounds great modded (I have one) and the Gap La3a sounds good to! The vintech/distressor is a great pairing (you can hear it on my soundcloud song Field of Dreams primarily.)
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Post by swurveman on Feb 23, 2016 7:58:56 GMT -6
I think the phrase "there's no accounting for taste" applies here. Different people hear things differently and have different tastes. I'm not surprised- and happy- to hear that people use what they like even when it is unconventional. The key for those who make unconventional choices is they have access to conventional choices, but choose differently. They've had comparative experience to know what they like. I must say, it is a luxury that most people don't have to be able to reject Urei's for Distressor's, or a SSL console Compressor for the Chameleon Labs one. At a certain level, guys have so much gear experience that can only come from massive acquisitions and experience over the years. Ah, to be in that chair....
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Post by joseph on Feb 23, 2016 8:53:40 GMT -6
Okay, but I need a 10,000 mic that has more air for shitty pop vocals. Or was it a 5000 dollar bus compressor for kill yourself EDM? Point is, I have priorities, unlike the old farts. EDM? Oh no, my friend... you need a macbook (not even a pro) and Appollo duo and tons of tons of plug-in loudness maximizers. And the 'Focusing EQ'. Maybe so, but every week I read a post on GS from some EDM moron looking to buy thousands of dollars worth of hardware.
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Post by joseph on Feb 23, 2016 8:56:57 GMT -6
I think the phrase "there's no accounting for taste" applies here. Different people hear things differently and have different tastes. I'm not surprised- and happy- to hear that people use what they like even when it is unconventional. The key for those who make unconventional choices is they have access to conventional choices, but choose differently. They've had comparative experience to know what they like. I must say, it is a luxury that most people don't have to be able to reject Urei's for Distressor's, or a SSL console Compressor for the Chameleon Labs one. At a certain level, guys have so much gear experience that can only come from massive acquisitions and experience over the years. Ah, to be in that chair.... Yes there is. Some people have bad taste, but enough sense to realize that they must offset it with fancy gear.
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Post by tasteliketape on Feb 23, 2016 9:16:51 GMT -6
I think especially when your a beginner you chase the hype thing more ,it's easy to do As for good gear I think it's makes it easier to get where your going BUT in the end if you really know what the gear you have sounds like and performs cheap or vintage and mic placement and performance the gear becomes less important But yes I still want a neve u47 and 251 an km54 yada yada yada
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 23, 2016 9:42:26 GMT -6
I certainly understand your point. We all enjoy the minutiae...but you also mentioned that he had an SSL 6000 and a rack of 1073s, UREIs and a bunch of Neumanns...yet, at some point, he was caught in the minutiae enough to go out and buy a 7720, Distressors and Oktavas. That's about $400k - sounds like he's sicker than the rest of us. I just get annoyed at the snobbery sometimes. No one is immune to the effect of G.A.S. - some just pretend not to be.
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Post by svart on Feb 23, 2016 9:58:36 GMT -6
I'd still say more often than not, professionals choose professional-caliber gear, and they just turn knobs until it sounds good. People disagree with me all the time about it, but the facts stand, that almost all of the professional engineers use high-end equipment to do their jobs. It may not be that they care or are aware of certain attributes some gear has over others, but I can guarantee that it's because the gear just works and it does so at a professional level.
I didn't always think that way.
I used to think I'd be the one to make cheap gear work and I'd be the one to finally prove that skill beats everything, including gear. I thought I was something special, and I would prove it to the world.
After years of failing, I searched my soul and realized that I knew the truth all along, and my ego had held me back for too long.
The truth is that you can't have skills without the tools to bring those skills out and hone them properly, that there is no such thing as doing professional level mixes without professional level gear, and there is no such things as innate skill.
What I had spent years doing was not honing skills, I was just finding ways to get around the shortcomings of cheap gear. I was not progressing, I was just struggling to keep up.
I did this all on my own, without guidance from anyone, not because there weren't people around that knew more, but because I thought I knew better and I didn't listen. I cherry picked information on the internet that provided confirmation bias. I can see that now.
I'm not ashamed to say these things, because hopefully it'll help folks who want to make an honest assessment of their own positions in the industry. I am ashamed that it took me so long to realize that I was being pig-headed and probably missed out on a lot of knowledge, progression and connections that I wish I had today..
Let me tell you from first hand knowledge.. The whole "it's not the gear, it's the person" is just a battle cry of folks on forums who are unable to buy top-tier gear but want to feel relevant in the business.. And who don't want to admit that they are behind the curve. That's not to say a skilled person can't do good work with mediocre gear, but that's not the norm at all.
And now I hear it all the time from people in the music world, and I recognize it for what it is, because I was guilty of it.. As a studio owner struggling to make an honest go of recording, the #1 thing I hear is:
"I don't need expensive gear, it's all a sham to make money.."
And the next thing usually out of people's mouths is:
"My interface is just as good as anything you have and the internal preamps are really good, and I have 100's of dollars worth of plug-ins, so why should I pay someone else to record me??"
And because of this, the large studio is dying a slow death and poorly recorded releases are becoming the norm in the music world.
I keep up with these bands who turn down professional studio time and decide to record themselves, and while a few have turned out decent work, the overwhelming majority release cringeworthy sounding work. I listen to these things and I recognize the working-around-shortcomings in the mixes, because those are all things I've fought and lost as well.. Too much highs and lows trying to compensate for lack of detail and punch, mushy mids because of poor monitoring, pinched upper mids from boosting for vocal detail, etc.
But to address OP's post..
CL 7720's, 219's, Distressors, Digi192's are all professional gear. I don't know where the idea that they aren't comes from.
If you had said Behringer compressors, MXL mics, and a Fireface, I would have agreed that it would be amazing to get anything professional from them.
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Post by donr on Feb 23, 2016 10:05:49 GMT -6
When you hear gear working and getting great results, no harm in copying what that fellow uses and does.
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 23, 2016 10:12:32 GMT -6
I spent tonight doing some session work at a really nice studio here. I've tracked there many times before but not since I became obsessed with building my own studio and chasing my own sonic shangri la. The owner/operator is a seasoned pro whose made many records you've probably heard of. He knows what he's doing and has a successful career as a producer/mix engineer. It really struck me how different his approach to "gear" is than us forum-frequenters. For example. He's got a rack of original 1073s. The kind of thing my jaw drops at (at least a little). He doesn't care about their pedigree. He uses them mostly for electric guitars. For lead vox and almost everything else he uses the Vintech version. Says they breakup smoother and aren't as pointy and he just likes them better for most things. He's got a massive SSL 6000 with the classic bus compressor right in the middle. He uses Chameleon Labs 7720s more often (has several, along with 7802s). He's got several Neumann's, which he uses a lot, but right there with them on the drum tracks are Oktava 219s. They sounded fantastic. There's no gear worship. This guy is in the trenches making good records and getting shit done every day. Tonight while tracking the Urei's were off, the Distressors were on. There are a couple lovely 2" tape machines sitting there and he still uses Slate VTM quite a bit. Says he loves it. I just found the whole thing noteworthy. I spend a lot of time here and on GS getting caught up in the various conversations about esoteric minutiae (which, truth be told, I enjoy and find interesting) and this true professional is on Pro Tools 8, with a machine room full of older Digi 192's, not really watching his levels that much, using some totally obtainable gear while legendary stuff sits idle and just getting truly killer tones quickly and efficiently. He doesn't care what the pedigree of any piece is, he's there to make things sound good, and he does it with whatever is quickest and easiest in a given situation. Plugin, hardware, expensive, cheap - doesn't give a shit about any of it, just gets good sounds. Anyway. It struck me and I thought I was worth sharing. That's all. Use what you have and what works and get on with it! It's better that way. I am not a pro and I say it since 4 years I use an ART PRO VLA II because it sounds fantastic on LV or Acoustic guitars. I still use the Behringer MDX 1000 fantastic if it comes to soft round kicks drums or harder palyed licks on E guitars. I also have the WA 76... In other words I think too many AE buy gear by names, by brands instead of listening. Another good example is the Behringer V Verb 2496 it is an absolute professional sounding reverb. People miss it because of the B brand. I just said it two weeks ago on this board that changing gear all the time leads to the point that you never learn your tools. I just have a great example which is a few days ago... One of my guitar students builds monitors since he is 14 now he is 38. He gave me two DIY Coax driven monitors with base reflex system. Absolutely professional tools and they did cost him only 600 Euro. If I could live with a non professional finish... I would use them because they are more in phase than the 8040. If you want to build a small studio on a small budget times never have been better. The point with the most hobbyists is, they are too lazy to put time work and money in their own space. That's just stupid because many information is just a few clicks away.
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Post by ragan on Feb 23, 2016 10:38:29 GMT -6
Yeah I totally agree with what Svart said about "professional" tools. It's not that gear doesn't matter. It demonstrably does.
I was more just struck be the approach/attitude. No care or time given to pedigree. The CL stuff or the Oktavas are in fact "professional" gear (the warm, punchy drum rooms with the Oktavas were some of the coolest I've heard) but many would deride them as prosumer crap.
It was just refreshing is all. Got a rack of vintage 1073s sitting there? They're great but I like the Vintechs better for most things. Cable went bad? Grab another, don't give a rat's ass if it's Mogami or generic, just get one that works so we can get the part and move on. Already did a synth mock up in Garage Band? Grab your laptop and plug it in here. There's a room of vintage analog synths over there but if you already got the part you like let's just use it.
There was just entirely less fussing around about gear and a lot more just getting tracks down. And they sounded great.
I didn't mean my original post as a "gear doesn't matter" thing as much as a "obsess about gear less, make more music" thing.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 23, 2016 10:41:02 GMT -6
I've been struggling with this lately. Ragan has the chops to sweat it out, and basically do it all himself. I too got caught up in that. Friends no longer made time to play together, so it was easier to just do it myself, Unfortunately, no matter how I try, something's missing in my tracks. Simply put, I think it's not having the right gear in a decent room, and not having real drummer. I don't mean to say the gear makes the record, just that if it's not the right piece for you, no amount of time and plug-ins are gonna fix it.
For over a decade, I had left the music business, and had no gear whatsoever. In 2012, finance`, (now my wife) said, "why don't we record something for our wedding", and encouraged me to try again. I bought an Apogee interface, recorded for 10 minutes, and said to myself. "the sound of this thing sucks". The UAD Apollo came out at that time, and it seemed like the answer to my formerly, analogue only ears. I bought one, and managed to make a decent first digital recording. The thing is, after years of playing catch-up, I've reached the point where I now know enough about the basics of modern technology and recording techniques to realize that I don't have 25 years to learn what a great engineer knows from experience.
Now, I had my own small studio once, so I wasn't an absolute beginner. But then, I was always working, used first class studios for bigger jobs, and did smaller jobs at home. The first thing I did when putting my studio together? All within the same week, I bought an 8 track and 2 track Tascam, a Neumann U-87, a Lexicon reverb, Lexicon delay, Yamaha reverb, DBX compressors, a Yamaha mixer, NS-10's, an Adcom power amp, a Kurzweil keyboard, an E-Mu Proteus, a Drum machine, a few extra mics, 57's, 58's RE-20, some soundproofing, and a patch bay, hooked it all up, and didn't look for anything else for ten years, and I used it every day.
All this time, I've been chasing the sounds I want, and they are out there, they just cost what they cost.
My dilemma is figuring out where am I now as an artist. Unless my goal was to start a studio for hire, the gear must serve my personal needs, and that really should remain for recording demos. Even if I cobble together a new album, I'll cringe every time I hear it. I have to look at getting back to studios again, and to playing with other musicians, and figure out how to see my work reach more people.
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Post by ragan on Feb 23, 2016 10:50:14 GMT -6
When you hear gear working and getting great results, no harm in copying what that fellow uses and does. Oh don't think I didn't snap a few pics when I saw something I wouldn't have thought of : ) BTW, Don, the other guitarist at the session opened for you in Anchorage once. Egan Center I think he said. Said you guys were great and super nice. Then we went into a pretty bitchin a Capella version of all the licks in "Burnin For You" (it was late) perhaps to the chagrin of the aforementioned engineer who was trying to get some soft BGV's done : )
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Post by EmRR on Feb 23, 2016 10:52:03 GMT -6
Remember a pro who's been in this 30 years started buying gear when there was only 'good' and 'garbage'. The line has blurred dramatically, and it makes sense that someone in it this long might have 1073's 'just sitting around'. After all, he probably paid $400/ea for them in the mid-80's.
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Post by ragan on Feb 23, 2016 11:38:58 GMT -6
Also, it's worth noting that I'm not intending to lump all of "us" in one camp. Many here are true pros too.
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Post by svart on Feb 23, 2016 11:50:59 GMT -6
And also, Vintech's are just cloned 1073's (or 1272's) and are certainly professional gear.
I also think that people find what works, and they stick with it.
I absolutely don't agree that any professional engineer has a "clean slate" every time they mix a new band. Bands who have the money pick mix engineers for their sound. If an engineer started every project with freshness and a ground-up way of doing things, they would not have a "sound".. Even if the engineer resets every piece of gear and starts from scratch, their knowledge of the gear and their habits will tend to bring them back to the same settings over and over.
I, for one, have embraced this and leave a lot of my settings the same on gear i use. I'll simply use a piece or not use it depending on the mix, but I rarely change the settings much once I've found the sweet spot on something.
I'm finding my sound, slowly but surely, and I've had multiple repeat customers that are coming back for that sound too.
I just got the best comment I think I've ever received the other day..
A repeat customer is in the studio talking about pre-production and I ask about a recent show they played...
First thing that was said was a remark about getting hit up 5 times during the night from different "studios" and "engineers" wanting them to come record.
"we told them no thanks, we have a favorite studio we go to" was their response.
I couldn't tell you how happy this made me, and I feel it's the real reason I'm doing this now. it surely isn't the money, and it surely isn't the fun.
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