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Post by svart on Jan 27, 2016 10:24:40 GMT -6
I put a floating laminate floor above my concrete, and it definitely damped some of the really zingy reflections of the room that the concrete had, even with a fully dead ceiling.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 27, 2016 11:04:05 GMT -6
One thing that needs mentioning, that the room has to be over a certain size for skyline type diffusion to be effective. I don't know the specific size but it's a lot larger than most home studios. Attempting to use diffusion in a small room only adds to additional complex reflections and modal issues.. For a small room, the only thing that should be considered is absorption, or binary type diffusion which works by selective absorption rather than through reflection. You're right on with absorption being thee most important factor in a small room, but I can't agree with this entirely, skylines are no more or less effective than any other diffusor in any similar situation, in a smaller room they actually are more useful considering they are 2D, and not 1D, which means they diffuse on a vertical and horizontal plane, which dissipates energy faster in a smaller room, and better than a 1D diffusor, which only works in a horizontal, or vertical plane depending on orientation. Also, "small room" problems depend entirely on the spl generated excitement in/and of the "small room", if you're rocking out, you have issues, if you monitor at low volumes, and finger pick an acoustic guitar in front of a diffusor at 2 feet away (which some would say no brhbrhbhr south park style 8), it can possibly generate a very good sound. With all "well type" diffusers, the size of the individual dividers, wells, and their depths dictate the period bandwidth range, the deeper the wells, the lower the effective range will reach. As far as worsening a room? not likely, they will have virtually no effect on low freq problems, but everything above will be... well.., diffused. When using a multiple array of most diffusor types, an inverse should be thrown in to avoid freq lobeing, their are all kinds of online calculators that can help figure that stuff out, but as others have suggested, it's a good idea to get a Jeff Hedback type guy to design something for you at a minimal cost to save headaches, and a very steep learning curve. As far as my advice here, grain of salt it, i've been to the puppet show, and i've seen the strings, my reality is I know enough about this stuff to not get ripped off, but i'm also far from an acoustician, be wary of the salesmen who convolute on this stuff, i find it almost laughable that the majority of manufacturers sell exactly "one size" diffusor to anyone willing to part with their money, after they confuse the hell out of them! RGP is at the forefront of their game, but you are going to pay through the nose for the name, but they are the real deal.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 27, 2016 11:08:04 GMT -6
I put a floating laminate floor above my concrete, and it definitely damped some of the really zingy reflections of the room that the concrete had, even with a fully dead ceiling. Just use a throw rug under certain instruments, IME, if you hear zing from concrete? you have other destructive room issues....
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 27, 2016 11:10:41 GMT -6
Thanks Tony :-) My friend remodeled his farmhouse upstate NY. Since he redid the floors in concrete, they used some sort of heating element. Man that place is cozy. next time I see him, I'll ask about it. I bet some of those wood panels in a small thin wood slat type style would offer some diffusion as well. Couldn't hurt, could it? from the material itself it would be better than sheetrock no doubt, but irregular depth is what creates diffusion, so not much at all.....
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Post by M57 on Jan 27, 2016 11:13:43 GMT -6
Thanks Tony :-) My friend remodeled his farmhouse upstate NY. Since he redid the floors in concrete, they used some sort of heating element. Man that place is cozy. next time I see him, I'll ask about it. I bet some of those wood panels in a small thin wood slat type style would offer some diffusion as well. Couldn't hurt, could it? I was thinking about panels as well.. This many sound persnickety, but I just hate the dated look they bring to the room. There are probably contemporary alternatives. Though I'm also thinking that furniture/bookshelves goes a long way. What I do know for certain is I hate the sound of sheet-rock/wallboard. Just about anything I bring into the room, regardless of where I put it or hang it, seems to make the room sound better.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 27, 2016 11:16:14 GMT -6
I put a floating laminate floor above my concrete, and it definitely damped some of the really zingy reflections of the room that the concrete had, even with a fully dead ceiling. Svart, what did you use to deaden your ceiling? I currently have a cloud over my listening position, but I need more in the room overall.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 27, 2016 11:34:21 GMT -6
Thanks Tony :-) My friend remodeled his farmhouse upstate NY. Since he redid the floors in concrete, they used some sort of heating element. Man that place is cozy. next time I see him, I'll ask about it. I bet some of those wood panels in a small thin wood slat type style would offer some diffusion as well. Couldn't hurt, could it? I was thinking about panels as well.. This many sound persnickety, but I just hate the dated look they bring to the room. There are probably contemporary alternatives. Though I'm also thinking that furniture/bookshelves goes a long way. What I do know for certain is I hate the sound of sheet-rock/wallboard. Just about anything I bring into the room, regardless of where I put it or hang it, seems to make the room sound better. i feel it's important to make your room sound great acoustically, interesting, and unique to you, bad or boring is the deathnail to all forms of art! I know most people gloss over the importance of their room in lieu of gear, but make no mistake, your room is MORE important than any of your gear, it will imprint itself on every acoustic instrument you record, I'd take a Mbox, a 57 and a bitchin room, over a stack of neve's and a U47, in a bad room any day.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 27, 2016 11:40:45 GMT -6
I put a floating laminate floor above my concrete, and it definitely damped some of the really zingy reflections of the room that the concrete had, even with a fully dead ceiling. Svart, what did you use to deaden your ceiling? I currently have a cloud over my listening position, but I need more in the room overall. I know you didn't ask me, but how high is your ceiling? if you have floor joists above you, the best easy way is... (forego 1st step if sound transmission is NOT an issue?)put a couple layers of cuts of 5/8" sheetrock in between the joists on the underside of the above subfloor, and seal the edges, then insulate(uncompressed full depth)with ultratouch cotton insulation, then put an acoustically transparent material to finish the ceiling, go white otherwise you will feel like you're in a cave, and it will be as good as it can be ime
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Post by svart on Jan 27, 2016 12:01:34 GMT -6
I put a floating laminate floor above my concrete, and it definitely damped some of the really zingy reflections of the room that the concrete had, even with a fully dead ceiling. Svart, what did you use to deaden your ceiling? I currently have a cloud over my listening position, but I need more in the room overall. I had a bare joist ceiling, so I extended the depth between the joists to 12" and packed it with semi-compressed fiberglass, covered in acoustical fire-retardant burlap. When given a choice, looser but deeper insulation absorbs down deeper and extends higher than denser but thinner insulation, and can be cheaper in the long run if you have the depth to spare.
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Post by svart on Jan 27, 2016 12:18:41 GMT -6
One thing that needs mentioning, that the room has to be over a certain size for skyline type diffusion to be effective. I don't know the specific size but it's a lot larger than most home studios. Attempting to use diffusion in a small room only adds to additional complex reflections and modal issues.. For a small room, the only thing that should be considered is absorption, or binary type diffusion which works by selective absorption rather than through reflection. You're right on with absorption being thee most important factor in a small room, but I can't agree with this entirely, skylines are no more or less effective than any other diffusor in any similar situation, in a smaller room they actually are more useful considering they are 2D, and not 1D, which means they diffuse on a vertical and horizontal plane, which dissipates energy faster in a smaller room, and better than a 1D diffusor, which only works in a horizontal, or vertical plane depending on orientation. Also, "small room" problems depend entirely on the spl generated excitement in/and of the "small room", if you're rocking out, you have issues, if you monitor at low volumes, and finger pick an acoustic guitar in front of a diffusor at 2 feet away (which some would say no brhbrhbhr south park style 8), it can possibly generate a very good sound. With all "well type" diffusers, the size of the individual dividers, wells, and their depths dictate the period bandwidth range, the deeper the wells, the lower the effective range will reach. As far as worsening a room? not likely, they will have virtually no effect on low freq problems, but everything above will be... well.., diffused. When using a multiple array of most diffusor types, an inverse should be thrown in to avoid freq lobeing, their are all kinds of online calculators that can help figure that stuff out, but as others have suggested, it's a good idea to get a Jeff Hedback type guy to design something for you at a minimal cost to save headaches, and a very steep learning curve. As far as my advice here, grain of salt it, i've been to the puppet show, and i've seen the strings, my reality is I know enough about this stuff to not get ripped off, but i'm also far from an acoustician, be wary of the salesmen who convolute on this stuff, i find it almost laughable that the majority of manufacturers sell exactly "one size" diffusor to anyone willing to part with their money, after they confuse the hell out of them! RGP is at the forefront of their game, but you are going to pay through the nose for the name, but they are the real deal. It has to do with acoustical power. Smaller rooms allow more power to reach the (skyline) diffusor. Diffraction happens as the sound wave is reflected off at varying angles and creates sum/difference changes in the fractional waveforms that are reflected, effectively creating modes as the incoming and outgoing waveforms collide. This makes the in-air frequency mixing very complicated and somewhat unpredictable without complex 3D field solving models. 2D/3D/Skyline Diffusors are meant to be used far away from the listening position and work by taking power away from the reflected signal by reflecting it at odd angles away from the listening position. Sitting too close to a diffusor while the diffusor is too close to the signal source allows too much residual signal to reflect back into the listening position and thus, modal issues. Your viewpoint only works if the skyline type diffusors are placed appropriately, which is at a distance such that the product of the reflections is not significant to the listener. The distance of course, is figured by the absolute frequency range of the diffusor vs. the acceptable drop off in signal power of the reflected products. In layman's terms, the diffusor needs to be far enough away that you don't hear the comb filtering happening right in front of it. Diffusors like the binary type work by absorbing certain ranges of frequencies, mainly the most apparent mid-range, rather than reflecting them at angles. A fundamentally different way of working. In this case, the reflective frequencies are no worse than a regular wall, with known qualities. Still not superior to broadband absorption, but a usable tool to get rid of the peaking frequencies of a small room.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 27, 2016 13:35:47 GMT -6
well, what you're saying doesn't entirely match my experience, it also doesn't jive with the use of early reflections, which are the single most powerful image creation tools in mixing, I can sit 2 feet away from an array of my wooden skyline diffusors and it can help generate an acoustic guitar sound that borders on magically good, if that's problematic? then i'll take problematic all day long.
also, 1D diffusers keep more energy in the room sending in one direction, whereas 2D diffusers will dissipate energy faster by sending it in multiple directions, modes and antimodes are also not usually an issue from anywhere above 1k as the waveforms are less than a foot in length, hence they shouldn't be a problem as most diffusers do not reach much below 1k, they will actually help. And contrary to a popular belief, you can use your ears to discern all but the lowest of freq problems, shit, even then it's not hard to hear 70hz disappear or double, as you walk around a problematic room.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 27, 2016 13:43:38 GMT -6
Svart, what did you use to deaden your ceiling? I currently have a cloud over my listening position, but I need more in the room overall. I know you didn't ask me, but how high is your ceiling? if you have floor joists above you, the best easy way is... (forego 1st step if sound transmission is NOT an issue?)put a couple layers of cuts of 5/8" sheetrock in between the joists on the underside of the above subfloor, and seal the edges, then insulate(uncompressed full depth)with ultratouch cotton insulation, then put an acoustically transparent material to finish the ceiling, go white otherwise you will feel like you're in a cave, and it will be as good as it can be ime My basement is finished. So, I'm not sure how high it could be if I ripped out the ceiling. Sound transmission is not a problem. What kind of acoustically transparent material are you talking about? Not sure what you mean by that. Thanks Tony!
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 27, 2016 13:51:36 GMT -6
I know you didn't ask me, but how high is your ceiling? if you have floor joists above you, the best easy way is... (forego 1st step if sound transmission is NOT an issue?)put a couple layers of cuts of 5/8" sheetrock in between the joists on the underside of the above subfloor, and seal the edges, then insulate(uncompressed full depth)with ultratouch cotton insulation, then put an acoustically transparent material to finish the ceiling, go white otherwise you will feel like you're in a cave, and it will be as good as it can be ime My basement is finished. So, I'm not sure how high it could be if I ripped out the ceiling. Sound transmission is not a problem. What kind of acoustically transparent material are you talking about? Not sure what you mean by that. Thanks Tony! any(fireproof treated) material you can blow through fairly easily, anything more reflective gives your brain location cues, in effect "lowering" you ceiling..., if you do it? for godsake trust me on this, go white!!!! unless you're going to paint hieroglyphics on the walls haha If your floor is concrete, a super absorbent ceiling goes a long way toward fooling the room.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 27, 2016 13:53:28 GMT -6
Svart, what did you use to deaden your ceiling? I currently have a cloud over my listening position, but I need more in the room overall. I had a bare joist ceiling, so I extended the depth between the joists to 12" and packed it with semi-compressed fiberglass, covered in acoustical fire-retardant burlap. When given a choice, looser but deeper insulation absorbs down deeper and extends higher than denser but thinner insulation, and can be cheaper in the long run if you have the depth to spare. Thanks. What did you use to finish the ceiling?
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Post by jazznoise on Jan 27, 2016 14:05:24 GMT -6
I'm fairly sure skylines work like standard diffusors in that the distance needs to be double the lowest wavelength is diffuses at for the reflection pattern to appear properly diffuse. So @ 1Khz you're talking a wavelength of 0.34 meteres, so 0.68 metres is the minimum distance for the listener.
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Post by svart on Jan 27, 2016 14:21:29 GMT -6
I had a bare joist ceiling, so I extended the depth between the joists to 12" and packed it with semi-compressed fiberglass, covered in acoustical fire-retardant burlap. When given a choice, looser but deeper insulation absorbs down deeper and extends higher than denser but thinner insulation, and can be cheaper in the long run if you have the depth to spare. Thanks. What did you use to finish the ceiling? It's black acoustical burlap. I bought a huge roll of it and stretched/stapled it up. I covered the rows of staples with wood strips.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 27, 2016 18:46:57 GMT -6
M57 said, " This many sound persnickety, but I just hate the dated look they bring to the room", referring to wooden panels. Man, are we ever on the same page sometimes. As I was looking around at wood panels, thinking, well.. they might offer some diffusion if the had enough variations in the panels, but damn, they're fugly. I bet there's some modern style wood panels somewhere that still have variety in the panel stripes though. I did a quick look around, and wood panels with a variety of shapes were so expensive, the wall treatments that were mentioned earlier were less expensive. I did see this at Home Depot and thought it interesting. It said they were made of "plant fiber".. hmm.. I wonder what the heck that is.. www.homedepot.com/p/threeDwall-32-4-in-x-21-6-in-x-1-in-Off-White-Plant-Fiber-Glue-On-Wainscot-Wall-Panel-6-Pack-EKB-02-119/205784189 Attachments:
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Post by formatcyes on Jan 27, 2016 20:31:09 GMT -6
M57 said, " This many sound persnickety, but I just hate the dated look they bring to the room", referring to wooden panels. Man, are we ever on the same page sometimes. As I was looking around at wood panels, thinking, well.. they might offer some diffusion if the had enough variations in the panels, but damn, they're fugly. I bet there's some modern style wood panels somewhere that still have variety in the panel stripes though. I did a quick look around, and wood panels with a variety of shapes were so expensive, the wall treatments that were mentioned earlier were less expensive. I did see this at Home Depot and thought it interesting. It said they were made of "plant fiber".. hmm.. I wonder what the heck that is.. www.homedepot.com/p/threeDwall-32-4-in-x-21-6-in-x-1-in-Off-White-Plant-Fiber-Glue-On-Wainscot-Wall-Panel-6-Pack-EKB-02-119/205784189 Not dated vintage and vintage always sounds better I think its some kind of universal law or something
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Post by WKG on Jan 27, 2016 21:02:17 GMT -6
M57 said, " This many sound persnickety, but I just hate the dated look they bring to the room", referring to wooden panels. Man, are we ever on the same page sometimes. As I was looking around at wood panels, thinking, well.. they might offer some diffusion if the had enough variations in the panels, but damn, they're fugly. I bet there's some modern style wood panels somewhere that still have variety in the panel stripes though. I did a quick look around, and wood panels with a variety of shapes were so expensive, the wall treatments that were mentioned earlier were less expensive. I did see this at Home Depot and thought it interesting. It said they were made of "plant fiber".. hmm.. I wonder what the heck that is.. www.homedepot.com/p/threeDwall-32-4-in-x-21-6-in-x-1-in-Off-White-Plant-Fiber-Glue-On-Wainscot-Wall-Panel-6-Pack-EKB-02-119/205784189
Plant fiber is likely recycled cellulose, newspaper probably.
Some of those patterns look pretty nice when finished and painted, I wonder how much it would affect the room though?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 27, 2016 23:14:49 GMT -6
I just thought that besides all the fancier treatments, perhaps walls with a little variation might help things along. The "plant fiber" thing would bug me until I knew what it was. In this day of awareness of toxicity and the long term effects of inhaling chemical vapors, I'd want to know that everything I use is reasonably safe.
That's probably not so easy I imagine.
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Post by M57 on Jan 28, 2016 5:33:57 GMT -6
M57 said, " This many sound persnickety, but I just hate the dated look they bring to the room", referring to wooden panels. Man, are we ever on the same page sometimes. As I was looking around at wood panels, thinking, well.. they might offer some diffusion if the had enough variations in the panels, but damn, they're fugly. I bet there's some modern style wood panels somewhere that still have variety in the panel stripes though. I did a quick look around, and wood panels with a variety of shapes were so expensive, the wall treatments that were mentioned earlier were less expensive. I did see this at Home Depot and thought it interesting. It said they were made of "plant fiber".. hmm.. I wonder what the heck that is.. www.homedepot.com/p/threeDwall-32-4-in-x-21-6-in-x-1-in-Off-White-Plant-Fiber-Glue-On-Wainscot-Wall-Panel-6-Pack-EKB-02-119/205784189
Plant fiber is likely recycled cellulose, newspaper probably.
Some of those patterns look pretty nice when finished and painted, I wonder how much it would affect the room though?
For now, I'm sticking to my conjecture that anything is better than drywall - and the price sure is right. Reading the reviews, installation looks to be easy and they can be painted. Looking at the specs, I see they have a depth of 1" but are only 0.1" thick. As far as diffusion is concerned, I would think a 1" depth will restrict the range of frequencies it affects. And does anyone have thoughts on its acoustical properties aside from diffusion? Does the material have an impact? The air behind it can't be a bad thing, right?
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 28, 2016 7:02:32 GMT -6
Sonic Danger Will Robinson Sonic Danger !
I would urge caution as we seem to be back to confusing diffusion with absorption. A I inch absorber will only serve to attenuate the hi end of the freq band, actually skewing how sound sounds in your room by absorbing only a little hi band, so one would naturally overcompensate and turn up the hi freq in your mix which would not translate well to another room.
If this I inch panel has a non flat but not 1-2 plane diffusion profile, ( as Tony described above), it will also likely just makes things again worse by reflecting different bands of freq inconsistently ?
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Post by svart on Jan 28, 2016 8:36:01 GMT -6
M57 said, " This many sound persnickety, but I just hate the dated look they bring to the room", referring to wooden panels. Man, are we ever on the same page sometimes. As I was looking around at wood panels, thinking, well.. they might offer some diffusion if the had enough variations in the panels, but damn, they're fugly. I bet there's some modern style wood panels somewhere that still have variety in the panel stripes though. I did a quick look around, and wood panels with a variety of shapes were so expensive, the wall treatments that were mentioned earlier were less expensive. I did see this at Home Depot and thought it interesting. It said they were made of "plant fiber".. hmm.. I wonder what the heck that is.. www.homedepot.com/p/threeDwall-32-4-in-x-21-6-in-x-1-in-Off-White-Plant-Fiber-Glue-On-Wainscot-Wall-Panel-6-Pack-EKB-02-119/205784189 The orange wall is such paper. Made from bamboo fibers. And yes, this type of wall decoration is just that. There are no acoustical attributes to it whatsoever.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 28, 2016 8:36:20 GMT -6
Sonic Danger Will Robinson Sonic Danger !
I would urge caution as we seem to be back to confusing diffusion with absorption. A I inch absorber will only serve to attenuate the hi end of the freq band, actually skewing how sound sounds in your room by absorbing only a little hi band, so one would naturally overcompensate and turn up the hi freq in your mix which would not translate well to another room.
If this I inch panel has a non flat but not 1-2 plane diffusion profile, ( as Tony described above), it will also likely just makes things again worse by reflecting different bands of freq inconsistently ? What I'm saying is, those panels will do next to nothing, u should go after your room systematically, but any breakup/freq scattering is better than none, standing waves are god awful.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 28, 2016 15:54:13 GMT -6
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