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Post by swurveman on Jan 23, 2016 8:57:56 GMT -6
I see these threads about faster preamps and I'm wondering what the science/technology is behind this. What component(s) makes one preamp faster than another? And when they say "faster", I presume it refers to time. So, how much "faster" are they talking about? And how and when is it better to the point that it is noticeable and preferable.
It's just one of those things that is talked about and makes me go hmmmm as I continue to try to refine my understanding of sound engineering. I've got Vintech and API preamps. I couldn't say I can recognize a speed difference, but perhaps there's knowledge that can inform me to the point where I could tell the difference in speed between my preamps.
Thanks to anybody who knows the science.
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Post by yotonic on Jan 23, 2016 9:26:29 GMT -6
For me, as a musician, faster means how quickly, and "cleanly" a preamp handles transients, content etc. But sometimes the adjectives can all get mixed up together, especially when you add the word "detail". I actually think my Vintage 1073 has better detail on vox than my Forssell, but the Forssell is a faster pre. Much like any amp you get "mojo" or artifacts or character from someone's preamp design when you run audio through it. It winds up almost adding a slight "effect" or sonic signature to the audio, we all know what that sounds like on our voice or drums etc. With faster preamps I notice far less of that, which is why the guys who record orchestras and other applications that require dead realism love the faster topologies like Gordon and Forssell. Guys with lots of experience engineering develop a knowledge base of which preamps will add a color or signature that will make the song they are building more "rocking" or more "moody", more "Americana" etc. Some of those super fast preamps are dead plain real, like a Neumann 170. Lol. How the builders get there with point to point wiring, high quality electrolytics, is changing with some of the new tech coming out so I'm not sure its as simple any more as "keeping the shortest path" for the signal so that it "gets there the fastest".
JSteiger would be able to explain the science in a sensible way. But for me, "as a user" I have always equated "fast" with the ability of the preamp to capture all of the detail and transients of the audio quickly and cleanly like a camera lens, with no blurring, or loss of definition. (As an aside I love the saturation that comes from pictures on real film as versus digital, same goes for audio.)
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Post by swurveman on Jan 23, 2016 9:47:18 GMT -6
For me, as a musician, faster means how quickly, and "cleanly" a preamp handles transients, content etc. But sometimes the adjectives can all get mixed up together, especially when you add the word "detail". I actually think my Vintage 1073 has better detail on vox than my Forssell, but the Forrsell is a faster pre. Much like any amp you get "mojo" or artifacts or character from someone's preamp design when you run audio through it. It winds up almost adding a slight "effect" or sonic signature to the audio, we all know what that sounds like on our voice or drums etc. With faster preamps I notice far less of that, which is why the guys who record orchestras and other applications that require dead realism love the faster topologies like Gordon and Forrsell. Guys with lots of experience engineering develop a knowledge base of which preamps will add a color or signature that will make the song they are building more "rocking" or more "moody", more "Americana" etc. Some of those super fast preamps are dead plain real, like a Neumann 170. Lol. How the builders get there with point to point wiring, high quality electrolytics, is changing with some of the new tech coming out so I'm not sure its as simple any more as "keeping the shortest path" for the signal so that it "gets there the fastest". JSteiger would be able to explain the science in a sensible way. Thanks for your reply yotonic. It seems like "faster" and "less color" are interchangeable words in your explanation. That's something I can understand. I was thinking it had to do with millisecond time factors in the signal going through the circuitry, but I'm admittedly under educated when it comes to gear.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 23, 2016 9:55:01 GMT -6
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Post by yotonic on Jan 23, 2016 9:58:14 GMT -6
Hey Frank, yes I would say that to you if we were just having a beer, but Tony or somebody might jump all over me here and indicate they aren't mutually exclusive! Lol. Maybe I should say that there isn't necessarily "less color" with a faster preamp but it comes at you harder and more defined like a digital photo versus film.
Yeah I own some Jim Williams gear and he is the King of high speed.
I really dig fast preamps on stuff where that kind of raw, realism, really makes the music move you, especially talented acoustic artists etc. But everybody uses a different pen to communicate their vision.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 23, 2016 9:58:57 GMT -6
Slew rate. The faster a pre can handle transients the more detailed they are. Generally speaking of coarse. Solid state pres have faster slew rates and tube pres slower. Tube pres are often referred to in engineer speak as "gushy" or "round" which is everyday langauge for what they are really talking about, which is slew rate.
There are exceptions to every rule. For example, my LaChappel 992 eg has a very fast slew rate for a tube amplifier which is probably why everybody who tries it likes it. Very detailed.
The fastest pres I have right now are the RTZ's. These are the most detailed pres I've put my hand to. Simply gorgeous on everything.
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Post by yotonic on Jan 23, 2016 10:31:00 GMT -6
I'm guessing as a songwriter Frank that you are trying to educate yourself on gear to improve the quality of your demos or completed productions. I would add that the single most effective way to do that is through the quality of your instruments. You can make the greatest advancements in the quality of the final product by not cutting corners on the instruments, players, and microphones.
I know players who are so good that they can add more detail, eq, realism etc through their attack and control of the instrument than any preamp can add. I am always stunned when I use top session players at how huge the gap is between them and my regular session guys. Every medium sized city supports one or two guys who scratch out a living as session players. In my experience they aren't on the same level as guys in New York, LA, and Nashville who are "First Call" or whatever buzz term you want to use. You pay a little bit more but "most times" get a lot more back in return. And these guys are playing on so many peoples songs that they will have ideas to fix your writing where it's amateurish. I don't spend much money on gear anymore, only instruments and musicians. Every top session player has a world class home setup, and for live sessions studio time is cheap.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 23, 2016 10:42:21 GMT -6
Steroids
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Post by jimwilliams on Jan 23, 2016 11:17:40 GMT -6
Every electronic component made has a speed limit. To obtain a fast design, every component must be evaluated for it's speed limitations. Some resistors do better at mhz's than others. Caps are dependent of film types and voltage ratings, higher voltage caps are faster.
Transistors have a FT rating that sets their operational bandwidth. Opamps have open loop gain vs slew rate.
Topology also sets your speed limits. Transformer designs are limited to under 20v/us slew rate due to mostly rise time limitations of the transformer windings, even if the following amplifier is very fast. Transformer-less designs have no such limitations. Voltage feedback topologies are limited in speed and have a -6db/octave roll-offs past their operational bandwidth. Current feedback designs do not, they maintain full operational bandwidth at all gain settings without the roll-offs seen in voltage feedback designs. They are also much faster as there are no feedback/bandwidth limiting elements, feedback is steering currents that don't have the roll-offs or speed limits of traditional voltage feedback.
Some of my High Speed mic preamp designs here do 7000V/us slew rate, far beyond any other designs. Their operational bandwidth is 400 mhz. There are zero degrees of phase shift, 20~20k hz, also unique to the industry. CCIF twin tone IMD is .00015% as measured on the Audio precision analyzer. Noise is -133 db EIN at a 50 ohm source impedance. Tony C. has one of my 500 modules with that design, maybe he can comment on how it sounds.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 23, 2016 12:12:50 GMT -6
This Jim W 500 module is indeed very nice, color free, and lickity split, it can make a Samar ribbon as extended as a condensor mic. I'll put up some samples if u want, I REALLY want Jim's flagship stereo high speed pre, as I see it being an amazing overheads pre, especially with my samar ribbons, it more than makes up for the little bit of extension ribbons seem to lack, but in an unhyped way, while perfectly reproducing where they shine. If u are looking for super accuracy in a natural realistic way, look no further, I couldn't imagine why any orchestral recordists would own anything else.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jan 23, 2016 14:16:28 GMT -6
Actually transformer-less tubes are the fastest.
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Post by formatcyes on Jan 23, 2016 15:09:06 GMT -6
I have a dave hill europa 1 pre with speed control as you slow the speed down it rounds off the sound. If the pick on the guitar is to sharp dialing the speed back reduces its bite pulls the highs back a bit to. Speed controls how quick the pre responds to the incoming signal the pre is more or less inductive the faster the pre the less inductive the slow ones more. Any thing with a transformer in it will be slower than without, transformers are inductive.
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Post by jimwilliams on Jan 25, 2016 10:50:14 GMT -6
Actually transformer-less tubes are the fastest. There are a few fast RF triodes that can be used for audio, not that quiet however. You might get about a 50V/us slew rate but the input transformer will not get there, the best one is the Jensen JT-16 at 150/600 ohms. Common audio preamp tubes like the 12AX7A are limited to a 12v/us slew rate. Not too bad but far away from a quality current feedback amplifier running at a 7000V/us slew rate. The difference is like watching a sprinter run 12 mph while a spacecraft re-entering the atmosphere passes by at 5000 mph.
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Post by svart on Jan 25, 2016 12:16:07 GMT -6
"Fast" is a marketing term that has been drilled into consumers as an alternative path, chiefly to continue fleecing buyers who yearn for the edge on their recording competition.
As with anything, listen to your intended purchase. Does it do what you want? That's all that matters. The rest is just marketing.
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Post by schmalzy on Jan 25, 2016 12:20:48 GMT -6
Echoing what a lot of these other posts are saying (but living in a lower-end world myself): I'm seeing two types of speed/slew rates in my studio.
My Focusrite interface's preamps, when paired with an SDC, feel very immediate. The spike of the transient coming off a snare drum feels like the spike of the sound coming off the drum in the room (minus the physical punch from the moving air). Sharp. Sometimes too sharp. An acoustic guitar can sound very "live" - almost in a "warts and all" way. I can almost pick out the time differences and inconsistencies between every string of a strum.
My Chameleon Labs 7602 Xmods have transformers on the input and output. My Presonus Eurekas have transformers only on the input. The same SDC setup on them feels almost like the snare has a little limiting on it. The transient doesn't spike as sharply. I'm sure it's a little of the transformers saturating, too, but it's just not as immediate (most of the time, in a good way...but that's a different topic). An acoustic guitar sounds a little more together and, when strummed, like the individual strings are standing out less. Almost covering up the inconsistency from one string to the next that I was noticing in the transformer-less preamp.
A metaphor that translates the different preamp speeds looks like this to me (though I'm no golden-eared expert or technical genius - I'm just a low-end dude trying to make some cool recordings):
Imagine a sports car and a box van driving at 60mph, not being allowed to slow down, trying to follow a curving line on the road as exactly as possible. The line has some long curves that are smooth and some curves that turn fairly tight and are difficult to manage. The sports car will be able to turn a little more sharply and, because of its better handling, more accurately follow the line. The box van will have to round some of the sharper corners in order to miss as little of the actual line overall (if it tried to turn as fast as the other, it would tip over).
You're following me. The line is the sound wave in the air. The sports car is a faster preamp and the box van is the slower preamp. The path the vehicle actually travels is the sound wave after it comes out of the preamp. Both are giving you a somewhat accurately represented sound afterwards but one of them is more like the original sound and one of them is a bit more sluggish in its handling of the original sound's details.
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Post by Ward on Jan 25, 2016 20:35:48 GMT -6
There aren't a 'slew' of reasons... (ba dum pish)
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,940
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Post by ericn on Jan 29, 2016 9:19:23 GMT -6
There aren't a 'slew' of reasons... (ba dum pish) Slew you!
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Post by svart on Jan 29, 2016 11:00:19 GMT -6
Echoing what a lot of these other posts are saying (but living in a lower-end world myself): I'm seeing two types of speed/slew rates in my studio. My Focusrite interface's preamps, when paired with an SDC, feel very immediate. The spike of the transient coming off a snare drum feels like the spike of the sound coming off the drum in the room (minus the physical punch from the moving air). Sharp. Sometimes too sharp. An acoustic guitar can sound very "live" - almost in a "warts and all" way. I can almost pick out the time differences and inconsistencies between every string of a strum. My Chameleon Labs 7602 Xmods have transformers on the input and output. My Presonus Eurekas have transformers only on the input. The same SDC setup on them feels almost like the snare has a little limiting on it. The transient doesn't spike as sharply. I'm sure it's a little of the transformers saturating, too, but it's just not as immediate (most of the time, in a good way...but that's a different topic). An acoustic guitar sounds a little more together and, when strummed, like the individual strings are standing out less. Almost covering up the inconsistency from one string to the next that I was noticing in the transformer-less preamp. A metaphor that translates the different preamp speeds looks like this to me (though I'm no golden-eared expert or technical genius - I'm just a low-end dude trying to make some cool recordings): Imagine a sports car and a box van driving at 60mph, not being allowed to slow down, trying to follow a curving line on the road as exactly as possible. The line has some long curves that are smooth and some curves that turn fairly tight and are difficult to manage. The sports car will be able to turn a little more sharply and, because of its better handling, more accurately follow the line. The box van will have to round some of the sharper corners in order to miss as little of the actual line overall (if it tried to turn as fast as the other, it would tip over). You're following me. The line is the sound wave in the air. The sports car is a faster preamp and the box van is the slower preamp. The path the vehicle actually travels is the sound wave after it comes out of the preamp. Both are giving you a somewhat accurately represented sound afterwards but one of them is more like the original sound and one of them is a bit more sluggish in its handling of the original sound's details. And with that metaphor.. Try turning a performance car quickly when it's going really fast.. Understeer and crash. Or.. A slightly unbalanced wheel.. Oscillation. Turning a box van quickly is going to be relatively more stable, without understeer. Slightly unbalanced wheels are also felt a whole lot less. Moral of the story is that there is a fine line between "fast enough" and "too fast". As with opamps, feedback caps that squash oscillation and RFI ingress also slow the slew and gain-bandwidth product, effectively like driving your performance car at speeds that are easily handled..
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Post by schmalzy on Jan 29, 2016 16:04:24 GMT -6
And with that metaphor.. Try turning a performance car quickly when it's going really fast.. Understeer and crash. Or.. A slightly unbalanced wheel.. Oscillation. Turning a box van quickly is going to be relatively more stable, without understeer. Slightly unbalanced wheels are also felt a whole lot less. Moral of the story is that there is a fine line between "fast enough" and "too fast". As with opamps, feedback caps that squash oscillation and RFI ingress also slow the slew and gain-bandwidth product, effectively like driving your performance car at speeds that are easily handled.. Super true. There are definitely upsides and downsides to each end of the spectrum. That level of detail can be unusable. To add yet another metaphor to the pile: Reducing the amount of detail in a photograph of a person's face makes their skin look a lot better.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 29, 2016 17:05:02 GMT -6
And with that metaphor.. Try turning a performance car quickly when it's going really fast.. Understeer and crash. Or.. A slightly unbalanced wheel.. Oscillation. Turning a box van quickly is going to be relatively more stable, without understeer. Slightly unbalanced wheels are also felt a whole lot less. Moral of the story is that there is a fine line between "fast enough" and "too fast". As with opamps, feedback caps that squash oscillation and RFI ingress also slow the slew and gain-bandwidth product, effectively like driving your performance car at speeds that are easily handled.. Super true. There are definitely upsides and downsides to each end of the spectrum. That level of detail can be unusable. To add yet another metaphor to the pile: Reducing the amount of detail in a photograph of a person's face makes their skin look a lot better. and then some would say you wouldn't recognize one without the other, extremes in contrast make for excitement and beauty in art.
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Post by jimwilliams on Jan 29, 2016 17:08:57 GMT -6
Current feedback amps don't use band limiting feedback caps. Bandwidth is set by the feedback resistor values. They can be more stable at higher bandwidths than comparable voltage feedback designs. The extra detail is useful for beautiful sources, warts will be exposed to all.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 29, 2016 19:10:47 GMT -6
In my opinion "Fast" is a marketing term that has been drilled into consumers as an alternative path, chiefly to continue fleecing buyers who yearn for the edge on their recording competition. As with anything, listen to your intended purchase. Does it do what you want? That's all that matters. The rest is just marketing. FIFY
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Post by jazznoise on Jan 30, 2016 7:43:06 GMT -6
I throw mine out the window. First to hit the ground is fastest.
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Post by svart on Jan 30, 2016 18:53:02 GMT -6
Current feedback amps don't use band limiting feedback caps. Bandwidth is set by the feedback resistor values. They can be more stable at higher bandwidths than comparable voltage feedback designs. The extra detail is useful for beautiful sources, warts will be exposed to all. Yes, I use them a lot in my RF work, but in my experience they are mixed bag of specific tools, not a panacea. How do you get around the high DC offsets, the mismatched input impedances, large input bias currents, low input impedance and higher input current noise that is typical of CFA's vs. VFA's?
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