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Post by saxmonster on Jan 23, 2016 6:12:36 GMT -6
For all you electrians out there. Sometimes my lights flicker up and down like when an ac unit comes on or a dryer. This summer I have noticed it a lot and it doesn't matter where I am in the house even the out side spot lights do it. This happens even when nothing is on in my house. No dryer or ac or dishwasher etc. and it will happen a few times in a row like I turned the dryer of then back on real fast.
so this morning it been happening a lot cause of the snow storm and wind I assume. Power went out for like five minutes (whole street was dark) and now its been pretty steady. Just went dim again. The voltage meter stays at 120 on my furman conditioner though.
I always thought it was an issue with something at the pole. It just did it again. So is this an issue with amps from the transformer at the pole. Or something else.
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Post by keymod on Jan 23, 2016 11:00:12 GMT -6
There is a phenomenon known as "in-rush current" which occurs every time a load is applied to an electrical circuit or system. This is why you see a momentary dimming of lights when your A/C kicks in, or dryer, etc. The available current rushes to the load as it seeks earth. Normal, and doesn't matter if your system is old or new, it can and will happen, though to varying degree. If you are noticing dimming/flickering lights even when new loads are not being applied to the system and, especially today during windy conditions, then there very well may be an issue on the supply side of the current coming onto the premises. Even though the Utility owns the meter, you own and are responsible for the wiring from the point of attachment of the service, through the meter can and on throughout the premises. If you contact the Utility regarding this issue, they will more than likely tell you to have an electrician check things out first. A licensed electrician should check and tighten all connections that are accessible, starting with the service panels on the breakers themselves, as well as every neutral connection on the neutral buss. Also have them check line/load at the meter itself. If everything checks out and you have proper voltage ( different than ampacity ) everywhere, then the Utility should agree to check connections on upstream wiring, including at the point of attachment to the premise, transformers on poles, etc. During a storm situation like you have today, temporary dimming could be a type of brown out, where the wind is causing wiring on poles to contact things they normally shouldn't, which can lead to a very quick short circuit, not long enough to cause the protective devices to shut down the system.
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Post by saxmonster on Jan 23, 2016 11:28:51 GMT -6
Thanks Keymod,
I want to get a guy out to check everything anyways but I think the issue has been the transformers in the street. The power went out again and this time two different transformers blew up in the neighbor hood. I heard one them then looked out the window and saw the blue light from the other one further down the cross street. Pretty scary. Power came back on in a few minutes and haven't noticed any more of the dimming flickering. Maybe I Was getting my juice from those old now broken transformers and now have been rerouted to cleaner juice. Need to look up how all this stuff works.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 23, 2016 13:09:15 GMT -6
it also depends on your service entrance amperage and feed wire gauge from the pole, and where you are in relationship to neighbors, and the step down tranny on the closest pole, the pole transformers burden, size, age and condition matter as well, we rewired my brothers house, he's first feed off a transformer pole that was just replaced, his power is now clean and steady. I could be wrong on all this though, i'd trust whatever keymod says as he's a pure electrician by trade i believe.
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Post by saxmonster on Jan 24, 2016 20:17:01 GMT -6
Thanks guys,
So I was with out power for 10hr or so. House got down to 61 so not too bad. Was ready to hook up the generator to the heater if it wasn't on by this morning.
Anyways, during the storm the high voltage wires fell onto the 110v lines and a buddy of mine had his power strips sparking and blowing and its just a real mess.
My question is I though the main breaker at the top of the electrical panel should have trip. But i guess it only trips if the house pulls too much power. Is there anyway to protect against a surge like that? Preventing it from going through my electric box? I have all my DIY and two computers that I don't want ruined? Let alone my new heating system like his was.
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Post by jazznoise on Jan 26, 2016 12:17:30 GMT -6
It depends, and I'm not sure if it's the same for the US because you guys don't have neutrals on all your sockets. The RCD's should detect if the ground or neutral has begun floating up to too a high voltage, which contact with other conductors could cause.
Fuses and breakers can be unfortunately very slow in that they can take several milliseconds up to 1sec for a "Slow Blow" fuse. Usually in most devices the first think an overvoltage kills is a zener or the first transistor it meets. A protection diode is good in this case as it can stop the circuit being eaten by a bad voltage before the fuse blows.
AFCI's are faster, but it's only a new code in the US that these need to be in every room - right? Your friend might need to check he has these and that they're all functional. Likewise for yourself.
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Post by chasmanian on Jan 26, 2016 17:11:07 GMT -6
in the US, all regular 120 volt receptacles have neutrals. 1 hot, 1 neutral. not sure about if there's a terminology difference for where you are (Ireland?). as for ground, lots of older houses do not have grounded receptacles.
all of that said, I want to thank you for your post. I did not know that afci's are now code on receptacles in so many rooms in a house now. in reading, inspired by your post, I also read about glowing connections. I had never heard of them before. years ago, my workplace sent me for training on arc flash hazard training. it was oriented towards commercial and industrial equipment. I am learning now, about how it also applies to residential stuff. I've got some more reading to do now. thanks again.
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Post by jazznoise on Jan 26, 2016 19:10:36 GMT -6
Not sure if I'm more or less relieved by the idea that you have neutrals but not grounds. For us it's 3 pins, all the time. I know people say the UK/Irish plug is one of the most over engineered in the world - but I don't consider that an insult. I know parts of the US are more arid and drifting grounds could make for tripping RCDs, but you just gotta bury that thing deep (and failing that, I've heard of people watering them). Anything over 60V has to be taken seriously, it's a health risk.
No problem on the AFCI stuff. It was actually my curiosity that made me go over my old freshman knowledge on domestic electronics!
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Post by chasmanian on Jan 26, 2016 20:36:06 GMT -6
thank you again. from a safety standpoint, of course the lack of proper grounding for a residence or any building is not good.
I have heard of the watering the earth ground electrode(s).
the rest of a proper grounding system (and I am going off what I have read, and heard from an electrician friend), consists of grounded receptacles, and the ground connected to the neutral at the service entry to the building. with this proper installation, the Circuit Breakers, should operate properly in the event of a ground hazard.
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Post by formatcyes on Jan 26, 2016 23:37:30 GMT -6
Not sure if I'm more or less relieved by the idea that you have neutrals but not grounds. For us it's 3 pins, all the time. I know people say the UK/Irish plug is one of the most over engineered in the world - but I don't consider that an insult. I know parts of the US are more arid and drifting grounds could make for tripping RCDs, but you just gotta bury that thing deep (and failing that, I've heard of people watering them). Anything over 60V has to be taken seriously, it's a health risk. No problem on the AFCI stuff. It was actually my curiosity that made me go over my old freshman knowledge on domestic electronics! The neutrals are ground we have the 3 pin's in OZ also but the reality is back at the switch board the neutral and earth are tied together they are basically the same as far as the equipment is concerned. High voltage falling onto the low voltage line will almost always blow your equipment the fuses are current triggered not voltage so if you have a 63 amp main breaker it has to exceed 63 amps for it to trip. One guess where the current goes and no you cannot put the smoke back in
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Post by keymod on Jan 27, 2016 4:45:12 GMT -6
AFAIK,latest version of the National Electrical Code ( 2014 ) , which is pretty much adopted by the entire United States at this point, ( some States lag behind a few years debating adoption ) only requires ARC Fault circuit breakers or devices to protect bedrooms in residential properties. Ground Fault devices are required in many more locations. It should be noted that a circuit breaker does not operate when there is a ground hazard present. They are only designed to operate when there is an overload to a circuit OR a short circuit. A ground hazard is not necessarily a short circuit. A circuit breaker is designed to protect the wiring system and the associated devices being utilized. Of course, that will ultimately protect personnel, but that is not their first purpose. A GFCI is designed to protect personnel first and foremost. An AFCI is basically designed to protect against fire, which is why they are required in bedrooms. It's guarenteed that, at some point, the NEC will require them everywhere. These things are pushed into the NEC mostly by the Insurance Industry. Somewhere I have a photo of a device that burned pretty badly because of a loose connection, which would have been prevented by an ARC Fault breaker or receptacle. I'll try to post it at some point.
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Post by chasmanian on Jan 27, 2016 7:34:48 GMT -6
thank you for your post. I'm sure you know more than I.
that said, I would like to tell you what I have recently read and been told by an electrician friend.
say you have an appliance. and the motor has a problem. insulation is bad and a bare wire on one of the windings (a normal current carrying wire), has now broke and is touching the metal casing of the appliance. that casing is now hot. if it is grounded properly, current will go through the ground wire (which is a not normal current carrying wire), back to the circuit breaker panel, transfer there to the neutral wire (because the neutral and ground are bonded at the circuit breaker panel), go back on the neutral to the transformer at the utility pole, then back on the hot wire to the circuit breaker, and trip it. this happens very fast. there is a brief (short), intense current, which is what trips the breaker.
this was the first time I had seen the word "short ", used this way. anyways, just throwing it out there, man.
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Post by keymod on Jan 27, 2016 7:40:05 GMT -6
That is correct. If the motor were not grounded correctly, and the casing were energised, a shock hazard exists. If a person contacted live casing, current can flow through the body causing electrocution. This is what a GFCI device is designed to prevent
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Post by chasmanian on Jan 27, 2016 8:44:29 GMT -6
thank you for that post. I put a gfci in for the pool filter outside in the backyard for my Dad in 1984, when they may have been kinda new. I had forgotten the details. I haven't put one in, in a long time now.
I just read the wiki. if I read it right, it said that you can install them where there's only a hot and a neutral. you don't have to add or run a new ground wire. hmmmmm. got some more reading to do.
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Post by keymod on Jan 28, 2016 5:14:49 GMT -6
A two-prong receptacle ( hot & neutral ) is required where there is no ground available. This allows only a two-prong plug to be utilized. Not a problem, usually, when using a double-insulated device that only comes with a two-prong male cord end. This type of wiring is ancient technology but may still be found. Think knob & tube wiring method from way back in the day. The little cube adapters that go from two-prong male to three-prong female SHOULD NOT be used when there is no ground available. This is because the ground tab on these adapters is bolted to the metal strap of the device which is expected to be grounded through the metal raceway and/or box enclosure. If this type adapter is used where there is no ground, there will be NO GROUND at the female end of the adapter therefore no ground at the device being utilized. This is obviously dangerous. Just because a device has a grounding-type plug doesn't mean there is a ground. So, if replacing a broken/worn out two-wire receptacle, you can still use a new receptacle of the same type. ( There are other things to consider given it's location within the premises ) BUT, a GFCI receptacle can/maybe should be used to provide an extra degree of safety. If a GFCI device is used, a permanent label is required adjacent to the outlet which states that there is no ground available.
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Post by keymod on Jan 29, 2016 4:41:10 GMT -6
This is a photo of an outlet which burned due to a loose connection causing an ARC over time. This box isn't even grounded properly, though a ground would not have prevented this. As load passed through this outlet downstream to an outlet that was being used for a sump pump, the loose connection heated up and expanded/contracted over time, getting more and more loose. The looser it got, with load passing through, the more heat was generated until ignition in the wall occurred. The circuit breaker didn't trip because it did not sense an overload or a short circuit. This is a situation where an ARC Fault breaker or device would have prevented a fire.
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Post by chasmanian on Jan 29, 2016 17:47:33 GMT -6
a frightening picture, for sure. it reminds me a lot of a receptacle that burned up last year, where I work. an Air Conditioner was plugged into it. this has me thinking about the cause. I'll be thinking about this for awhile, I assure you. thank you very much for your excellent posts.
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