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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 11, 2016 21:24:59 GMT -6
How old is it now? 5 years? You would think it's about time. I'd like to see a smaller rack profile and even better specs.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Jan 12, 2016 12:39:21 GMT -6
do you even own one anymore? lol
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 12, 2016 15:36:06 GMT -6
No. Does that bother you?
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Post by Guitar on Jan 12, 2016 15:50:09 GMT -6
Interesting... maybe they're still thinking about it as top of the line and maybe it's selling well? I have no idea. I was surprised at how quickly Apollo got updated. To me 5 years seems kind of normal for a decent interface.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 12, 2016 18:37:33 GMT -6
Symphony has a "sound". Unlike any other converter. It's matte, rolled off and perfect for digital. Can't imagine why they'd want to change it. I record some things with Burl, and some with Symphony because of the characteristics. Both great, both needed IMO.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 12, 2016 18:40:01 GMT -6
And since Guitar mentioned Apollo, I prefer recording some things with it. Acoustics especially. Bright and in your face.
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Post by lpedrum on Jan 12, 2016 19:11:11 GMT -6
I bought a Symphony a little over a year ago and love it. I had the chance to sit down with someone from Apogee to test drive it. I very specifically asked if there were any plans to upgrade the Symphony in the near future and he said no. I didn't want to buy a product that would quickly become "last year's model." That doesn't mean that Apogee won't eventually upgrade the Symphony, but I'm happy with it the way it is.
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Post by popmann on Jan 12, 2016 21:18:41 GMT -6
Honestly, I would think it's a bad business model for them to.....however, since THEY decided it would be marketed as an interface, not a straight converter, they need to start including the Thunderbridge with any Symphony above say the 2x6 base level, where USB is fine.
The idea that conversion is something that needs replacement on any kind of regular basis is simply odd to me. Blue 192s still sound great to me (at double rate)....Burls are made with the same 15 year old chips. What you get with Sabre chips is mainly a better real time downsample....so a Symphony or MOTU 16a or the NEW Apollo16 will sound better at 48khz than an old school units. Double rate....decent line amp/power supply....I'm fine.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Jan 13, 2016 9:34:57 GMT -6
popmann the symphony works fine via USB with up 16 channels in both directions. Technology improves. look how long it took for us to graduate from flip phones to smart phones with 3.5" screens to smart phones with 5.5" screens. It's perfectly reasonable that converters can and should be replaced when better sounding technology comes along.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 13, 2016 10:36:18 GMT -6
don't discount the importance of implementation of chips and power supply, the orion, motu, and symphony all use 8 channels per chip, which highly stresses the chip and degrades the DR and noise specs etc, single chip/power supply per channel implementation is superior if it's done correctly, but costs much more, and is one of the reasons that the RM converters sound so good (if you ever get them)(svarts box is done in this way as well i believe? but I haven't used it), they are single supply, per single channel strip, can't speak to the motu, but I like what i've heard from others, but the Orion32 is woefully subject to falling off when loading it up, i demoed this and found 1 channel to sound great, and then it started to fall off as i added, the symphony did the same thing, but to a much lesser degree, maybe there is another reason for why i experienced this? I'm all ears? But with a significant amount of research, this is what i've narrowed my theory down to as for why, it's much more of an issue if your tracking lots of mics/instruments simultaneously, or feeding a console, poultry voltages equal poultry musical impact, single sided class A, or at least higher voltage lessers represents more impact for whatever reason ime. btw popmann the 192's were designed with some very well shielded audio paths, and good ps's, better than the new 16I/O's
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Jan 13, 2016 11:23:40 GMT -6
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Jan 19, 2016 12:37:21 GMT -6
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Post by jdc on Jan 19, 2016 12:51:07 GMT -6
don't discount the importance of implementation of chips and power supply, the orion, motu, and symphony all use 8 channels per chip, which highly stresses the chip and degrades the DR and noise specs etc Tony, I find this very interesting and enlightening, would you be able to point me to any places I can find more info on this?
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 19, 2016 13:25:57 GMT -6
don't discount the importance of implementation of chips and power supply, the orion, motu, and symphony all use 8 channels per chip, which highly stresses the chip and degrades the DR and noise specs etc Tony, I find this very interesting and enlightening, would you be able to point me to any places I can find more info on this? whenever you load up a chip with more than one channel it degrades DR/noise specs and shares PS, the less loaded the better, my 32 channels of superbeast dac's are 2 channels x 1794 per chip on individual ps, the 2 channel superbeast monitoring DAC is 1 channel per chip, so is svarts box... The symphony and orion are 8 channels per chip for multi boxes. here's from ESS site, notice they're quick to snark at competition in 8 channel config, but aren't too quick to brag on their OWN multi channel specs at 129db DR at 8 channels, and that is best case scenario(not that it's bad at all)...., ahhhh, marketing speak 8) The resultant sound has a lot to do with design layout, implementation, a lot of designs leave much to be desired imo. www.esstech.com/files/7414/5193/1716/ES9038PRO_Product_brief_121715.pdf"Revolutionary Performance Levels to Satisfy the Most Discerning Audiophile The ES9038PRO SABRE DAC features ESS’ patented 32-bit HyperStream™ DAC technology with up to 140 dB – industry leading – DNR in mono mode and –122 dB (0.00008%) total harmonic distortion plus noise (THD+N). The HyperStream architecture is responsible for both the outstanding sound quality of ESS SABRE DACs and the extremely low THD+N. A typical competitive, 32-Bit 8-Channel DAC using a delta-sigma architecture features –107 dB THD+N (0.0004%), which when subjected to listening tests does not equal the clarity and sound stage of the ES9038PRO."
As good as they are, the Motu's, symphs and orions in 8 channel configs aren't on par with a 2 channel PCM4222/PCM1794A rig that's done up right, of course JMO.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 19, 2016 13:31:59 GMT -6
Wow, that's impressive. I don't know why but converters are some of my most favorite gear. Just reading those descriptions excites my imagination.
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Post by RicFoxx on Jan 19, 2016 13:45:10 GMT -6
So now there are 2 chips per channel on the symphony???
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 19, 2016 13:53:18 GMT -6
So now there are 2 chips per channel on the symphony??? deleted until further info is at hand haha
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lucas
New Member
Posts: 8
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Post by lucas on Jan 19, 2016 14:02:33 GMT -6
Tony, I find this very interesting and enlightening, would you be able to point me to any places I can find more info on this? whenever you load up a chip with more than one channel it degrades DR/noise specs and shares PS, the less loaded the better, my 32 channels of superbeast dac's are 2 channels x 1794 per chip on individual ps, the 2 channel superbeast monitoring DAC is 1 channel per chip, so is svarts box... The symphony and orion are 8 channels per chip for multi boxes. here's from ESS site, notice they're quick to snark at competition in 8 channel config, but aren't too quick to brag on their OWN multi channel specs at 129db DR at 8 channels, and that is best case scenario(not that it's bad at all)...., ahhhh, marketing speak 8) The resultant sound has a lot to do with design layout, implementation, a lot of designs leave much to be desired imo. www.esstech.com/files/7414/5193/1716/ES9038PRO_Product_brief_121715.pdf"Revolutionary Performance Levels to Satisfy the Most Discerning Audiophile The ES9038PRO SABRE DAC features ESS’ patented 32-bit HyperStream™ DAC technology with up to 140 dB – industry leading – DNR in mono mode and –122 dB (0.00008%) total harmonic distortion plus noise (THD+N). The HyperStream architecture is responsible for both the outstanding sound quality of ESS SABRE DACs and the extremely low THD+N. A typical competitive, 32-Bit 8-Channel DAC using a delta-sigma architecture features –107 dB THD+N (0.0004%), which when subjected to listening tests does not equal the clarity and sound stage of the ES9038PRO."
As good as they are, the Motu's, symphs and orions in 8 channel configs aren't on par with a 2 channel PCM4222/PCM1794A rig that's done up right, of course JMO. Well, it is all about implementation. The ESS chips actually have the ideal topology to not have the problem you are referring to. There is power pin for every DAC in the package. A proper layout and decoupling will give you results comparable to dual channel chips. The name for this phenomenon is known as cross-talk. SIO mark I and II boards have crosstalk of 130dB from any channel to any other. It is basically in the noise floor. So therefore not an issue. Mono mode, also known as ADC or DAC stacking is done to achieve lower THD+N and higher dynamic range. Not so much to avoid cross-talk. We use ADC mono mode for that reason on the MKII boards. Cheers, Lucas
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Jan 19, 2016 14:05:30 GMT -6
well, hello there, Lucas from Apogee!!
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 19, 2016 14:17:44 GMT -6
whenever you load up a chip with more than one channel it degrades DR/noise specs and shares PS, the less loaded the better, my 32 channels of superbeast dac's are 2 channels x 1794 per chip on individual ps, the 2 channel superbeast monitoring DAC is 1 channel per chip, so is svarts box... The symphony and orion are 8 channels per chip for multi boxes. here's from ESS site, notice they're quick to snark at competition in 8 channel config, but aren't too quick to brag on their OWN multi channel specs at 129db DR at 8 channels, and that is best case scenario(not that it's bad at all)...., ahhhh, marketing speak 8) The resultant sound has a lot to do with design layout, implementation, a lot of designs leave much to be desired imo. www.esstech.com/files/7414/5193/1716/ES9038PRO_Product_brief_121715.pdf"Revolutionary Performance Levels to Satisfy the Most Discerning Audiophile The ES9038PRO SABRE DAC features ESS’ patented 32-bit HyperStream™ DAC technology with up to 140 dB – industry leading – DNR in mono mode and –122 dB (0.00008%) total harmonic distortion plus noise (THD+N). The HyperStream architecture is responsible for both the outstanding sound quality of ESS SABRE DACs and the extremely low THD+N. A typical competitive, 32-Bit 8-Channel DAC using a delta-sigma architecture features –107 dB THD+N (0.0004%), which when subjected to listening tests does not equal the clarity and sound stage of the ES9038PRO."
As good as they are, the Motu's, symphs and orions in 8 channel configs aren't on par with a 2 channel PCM4222/PCM1794A rig that's done up right, of course JMO. Well, it is all about implementation. The ESS chips actually have the ideal topology to not have the problem you are referring to. There is power pin for every DAC in the package. A proper layout and decoupling will give you results comparable to dual channel chips. The name for this phenomenon is known as cross-talk. SIO mark I and II boards have crosstalk of 130dB from any channel to any other. It is basically in the noise floor. So therefore not an issue. Mono mode, also known as ADC or DAC stacking is done to achieve lower THD+N and higher dynamic range. Not so much to avoid cross-talk. We use ADC mono mode for that reason on the MKII boards. Cheers, Lucas I'm not an expert, but the ESS chip does significantly downgrade with added channel count in DR/THD, and crosstalk isn't even mentioned in any spec sheet i've found, once crosstalk hits -100db @ 10k no one cares anymore, DR/THD is a different story IMU, You are using ADC in sub mono mode haha, i'm really curious as to how this works? any info you can share on that? I am looking forward to hearing one of these, it seems it would have no choice but to be significantly better sounding than the prior model.
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lucas
New Member
Posts: 8
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Post by lucas on Jan 19, 2016 14:47:35 GMT -6
Well, it is all about implementation. The ESS chips actually have the ideal topology to not have the problem you are referring to. There is power pin for every DAC in the package. A proper layout and decoupling will give you results comparable to dual channel chips. The name for this phenomenon is known as cross-talk. SIO mark I and II boards have crosstalk of 130dB from any channel to any other. It is basically in the noise floor. So therefore not an issue. Mono mode, also known as ADC or DAC stacking is done to achieve lower THD+N and higher dynamic range. Not so much to avoid cross-talk. We use ADC mono mode for that reason on the MKII boards. Cheers, Lucas I'm not an expert, but the ESS chip does significantly downgrade with added channel count in DR/THD, and crosstalk isn't even mentioned in any spec sheet i've found, once crosstalk hits -100db @ 10k no one cares anymore, DR/THD is a different story IMU, You are using ADC in sub mono mode haha, i'm really curious as to how this works? any info you can share on that? I am looking forward to hearing one of these, it seems it would have no choice but to be significantly better sounding than the prior model. Again, I think it is all about implementation. Improper decoupling or an under-specced power supply can result into your experience. With SIO I can have one channel going or all eight. The THD+N reading is unaffected. My AP gives me a solid -117dB. I would like to make clear that MKII analog boards are an evolutionary update. The MKI boards are not suddenly outdated or worthless. Analog technology does not move as fast as the digital world does. That is why the MKII supports the MKI boards. For those who already invested money in the Symphony platform, there is no immediate need to upgrade your IO boards. We just used the required frame update, to support the newer interfaces, as an opportunity to update the IO boards as well.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 19, 2016 15:26:45 GMT -6
Hey lucas - GREAT to have you here! This looks really tempting!
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Post by popmann on Jan 19, 2016 15:48:26 GMT -6
How many times will JK buy THIS one? Anyone want to start a pool?
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Post by wiz on Jan 19, 2016 15:48:36 GMT -6
I'm not an expert, but the ESS chip does significantly downgrade with added channel count in DR/THD, and crosstalk isn't even mentioned in any spec sheet i've found, once crosstalk hits -100db @ 10k no one cares anymore, DR/THD is a different story IMU, You are using ADC in sub mono mode haha, i'm really curious as to how this works? any info you can share on that? I am looking forward to hearing one of these, it seems it would have no choice but to be significantly better sounding than the prior model. Again, I think it is all about implementation. Improper decoupling or an under-specced power supply can result into your experience. With SIO I can have one channel going or all eight. The THD+N reading is unaffected. My AP gives me a solid -117dB. I would like to make clear that MKII analog boards are an evolutionary update. The MKI boards are not suddenly outdated or worthless. Analog technology does not move as fast as the digital world does. That is why the MKII supports the MKI boards. For those who already invested money in the Symphony platform, there is no immediate need to upgrade your IO boards. We just used the required frame update, to support the newer interfaces, as an opportunity to update the IO boards as well. Firstly, Welcome Lucas.. its great to see and read you here. Also, fantastic idea.. to make the next generation backwards compatible that deserves kudos. cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Jan 19, 2016 15:49:27 GMT -6
How many times will JK buy THIS one? Anyone want to start a pool? Well, how can you just say something like that?..... ...... you HAVE to put a time frame on it.... 8) put me down for 2 in 2 years... 8) cheers Wiz
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