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Post by mrholmes on Jan 3, 2016 10:41:10 GMT -6
Sorry I know it has been discussed to death, but I have a good question.
I do not believe the story off "I have found a way to do it all ITB" anymore.
Why?
Just for experience I did one mix ITB and the next one Hybrid with the console summing it.
ITB.
I have to fight for getting depth and dimension.
Nearly all FX sound narrow.
Getting the LF right is a true PAIN.
I hate listening loud to the ITB mix.
Hybrid with console.
Its very fast there, without spending hours of tweaking.
Even verbs which sound not that great ITB are coming to live on the desk.
Delays are integrated with the whole sound picture.
I did try all those you have to learn mixing ITB tags like super conservative gain staging.
Using LPF and HPF etc.
Did I try VCC or Satson or Airwindows Console and H-Mixbus??
Yes I did and for the first few songs it was different, but as soon I went back using the real gear it was super easy to get the goal.
I cant explain myself why I cant do it, and others say they can do it??
Interesting to me is they say in interviews things like
"I have found a way to make the computer sound like the SSL".
But mh they do not talk about it.
Is it possible that they are not telling the whole story in interviews??
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Post by swurveman on Jan 3, 2016 10:48:10 GMT -6
What console did you use?
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Post by drbill on Jan 3, 2016 13:27:31 GMT -6
Honestly? I can mix better music hybrid or ITB than OTB on a console unless I have a HUUUUUGGGGEEEEE complement of outboard gear of all types. For me, it's about better musical choices over sonics that I can employ by essentially staying ITB Although I DO have outboard gear like the Silver Bullet involved intimately throughout the process.
For me, the music itself trumps anything else. If the music hits me more on the emotional level, that's the right answer.
There is no "one way" for everyone. You have to find what works for YOU. But be aware, that almost always, someone can take what DOESN'T work for you and make it sound better than you can with your preferred work flow so.....
Find what works and go for it. Following trends like summing or consoles or tape or hybrid or the latest plugs in a vain attempt to finally figure out "the secret" is a waste of good creative time. Experience and "doing it" will reveal the secret over time. You will intrinsically know what works for you when you find it.
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Post by popmann on Jan 3, 2016 13:28:46 GMT -6
No, mixing analog is easier. Period. Anyone who argues it's not is....delusional, IMO, or simply hasn't experienced it. I tell self recording musicians ALL THE TIME...."get a little desk--learn to use it".....because it will make their lives easier in so many ways. And I don't mean "nice" "class A" desks....I mean Onyx/MixWizard level stuff. The fact that a Mackie 1640i can deliver 16x16 24/96 audio to and from the MacBook sitting next to it--what more does one need? Stereo compressor maybe? Hardware reverb box?
AND.....I can get it ITB. But, keep in mind, "ITB" isn't a terribly meaningful thing--digital is not digital. But, the point is--those aren't mutually exclusive things. I describe mixing digitally much like playing OCD audio whack-a-mole. It's a longer process. I've had to learn to pay attention to things that simply "worked right" in past systems, be they analog or non floating point digital.
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Post by drbill on Jan 3, 2016 13:36:38 GMT -6
No, mixing analog is easier. Period. Anyone who argues it's not is....delusional, IMO, or simply hasn't experienced it. Nope. Sorry. I had/have a 120 input high end D&R Orion X alongside my PT system with a more than average collection of great outboard gear. I could choose to mix either way. Everything came up in the patch bay. No additional money needed to be spent, no additional hassle patching things, no additional time. No clients demanding recall. No one telling me which was "right" or "wrong". And.... I chose to go ITB / Hybrid, cause it made my music better. And that is the #1 final word for me. I'm not delusional, and I mixed analog for 25 years on pretty much any console you could name (Neve, SSL, API, Trident, D&R, Amek, Mackie Etc.) before going ITB / Hybrid, so your thesis, while perhaps correct for you, is not an over-arching truth that you can proclaim to the universe.... |
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Post by Randge on Jan 3, 2016 13:51:11 GMT -6
I like ITB a lot because I get more than 90% of it going in at tracking. I use some comps and eq (analog hybrid)inserted and print as I go so I am not lead astray. If I need more transformer sound, it only takes a quick print back through a choice of a wide range of big iron to get me there and everything is laid out easy peasy. The Smart console helps a lot of not feeling like I am missing a desk in front of me though. I am so fast with a mouse at automation moves that I will usually use that in conjunction with broad fader moves to get where I am going fairly quickly and efficiently. Then, everything is recalled instantly and no sweating the pickiest of clients for mix fixes.
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 3, 2016 15:59:02 GMT -6
There is no "one way" for everyone. You have to find what works for YOU. But be aware, that almost always, someone can take what DOESN'T work for you and make it sound better than you can with your preferred work flow so..... Find what works and go for it. Following trends like summing or consoles or tape or hybrid or the latest plugs in a vain attempt to finally figure out "the secret" is a waste of good creative time. Experience and "doing it" will reveal the secret over time. You will intrinsically know what works for you when you find it. My question was not that I say its the only way to do it, who I am? I repeat myself - why do gel the fxs very nice on the summing mixer? Why is leveling way more easy? Why is the soundstage more wide and open? I even checked with my sister as a non AE person. She always picked blind the console mix. I just want to know the trick to make it sound like on the console ITB. A lot of people say they can do it, tell me which point I miss doing it right ITB. We do not talk Neve or SSL we talk a crapy Allen and Heath ZED24. Is it possible that pros like you get as well stems summed on big consoles? Single tracks with outboard used it in tracking. In this case the ITB story is something diffrent to me! I dont get the point, everybody told me you have to learn to mix ITB. I did try very hard, but as soon I go back to the mixer magic happens to the sound. drbill you are a pro AE. What is wrong with my mixing skills ITB. |
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Post by drbill on Jan 3, 2016 16:55:43 GMT -6
I can't answer for you - only for myself. For - ME - the soundstage isn't wider or more open with a console mix. I'm mixing Hybrid with a Silver Bullet on my mix bus for the last 3 years or so, so maybe that's part of the reason I'm so happy operating in Hybrid mode. I do have a great console (transparent sounding) to use if I WANT to though, but generally chose not to - in favor of the Silver Bullet and other outboard on my mix buss.
Some guys take to it, some take to mixing on a console. I honestly don't know why some gravitate either way. I can tell you that for - ME - I'd rather mix fully ITB than on a crappy Mackie or A&H mixer. I've never mixed on a Zed, so.....take that with a grain of salt. They may be great - I honestly don't know....
Maybe your mindset, style of mixing and/or the music you do is more conducive to an analog desk? Without "being there" I just don't know. I just get tired of the tyrannical opinions (not you - but other people) that OTB mixes will always be superior. I just have not found it that way.
I hope you figure out what works well for you!!
Best,
bp
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Post by wiz on Jan 3, 2016 18:29:56 GMT -6
I think a large part of it (on an individual basis) is left brain right brain, and scaled down choice.
I think we interact intellectually different with a mouse, to a knob. I know I do.
Let alone adjusting multiple things at once, e.g. boost/cut and freq on a sweepable EQ.
Also, not having infinite choice with a mixer and hardware, having sonic limitations, makes you ACCEPT choices you make.
I can mix (I think) quite well on either system.
I have settled on a hybrid system. Desk, outboard and ITB.
ATM I dont sum on the console... I just have it inserted, across individual tracks, this allows me to access its EQs, and really really quickly balance EQs of one track against another.. this is one of the biggest things for me, on a console... vs. ITB, even with a control surface... I can do it without any mathematical thinking becoming part of the equation, I even watched videos of the touch screen stuff like the RAVEN, and I think they make mistakes with the interface of the plug is. Plug ins, are made as eye candy, no more. They need to make them so they are ergonomically positive to the mixing /creative process. They aren't atm. even with a control surface.
just my thoughts...
cheers
Wiz
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 3, 2016 18:56:02 GMT -6
Maybe your mindset, style of mixing and/or the music you do is more conducive to an analog desk? Without "being there" I just don't know. I just get tired of the tyrannical opinions (not you - but other people) that OTB mixes will always be superior. I just have not found it that way. I hope you figure out what works well for you!! Best, bp Thats intresting you think some stiles of music benefit using a console. Thats why I love to ask more experienced AE. I have not mixed a wide stile of music because I most often mix what I write myself and that often ends in some kind of Rock, Pop .... But your statement makes sense to me... How does the silver bullet affects the mix bus? |
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Post by ericn on Jan 3, 2016 19:03:23 GMT -6
I think a large part of it (on an individual basis) is left brain right brain, and scaled down choice. I think we interact intellectually different with a mouse, to a knob. I know I do. Let alone adjusting multiple things at once, e.g. boost/cut and freq on a sweepable EQ. Also, not having infinite choice with a mixer and hardware, having sonic limitations, makes you ACCEPT choices you make. I can mix (I think) quite well on either system. I have settled on a hybrid system. Desk, outboard and ITB. ATM I dont sum on the console... I just have it inserted, across individual tracks, this allows me to access its EQs, and really really quickly balance EQs of one track against another.. this is one of the biggest things for me, on a console... vs. ITB, even with a control surface... I can do it without any mathematical thinking becoming part of the equation, I even watched videos of the touch screen stuff like the RAVEN, and I think they make mistakes with the interface of the plug is. Plug ins, are made as eye candy, no more. They need to make them so they are ergonomically positive to the mixing /creative process. They aren't atm. even with a control surface. just my thoughts... cheers Wiz This has always been my big problem with control surfaces, the coarseness of the control. We all felt 12 bit was way to little resolution in the days of analog console automation , but few have had a problem with it in the HUI interface ! |
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Post by drbill on Jan 3, 2016 20:02:23 GMT -6
Maybe your mindset, style of mixing and/or the music you do is more conducive to an analog desk? Without "being there" I just don't know. I just get tired of the tyrannical opinions (not you - but other people) that OTB mixes will always be superior. I just have not found it that way. I hope you figure out what works well for you!! Best, bp At the risk of sounding like a broken record, sales weasel or thread hijacker : This is copied from the introduction of the User Manual : (And really, it gives a lot of history and reasons as to why I'm comfortable working without a large format console these days....) PS - sorry for the length, and I know English is not your first language, but....
Over three years ago, Brad McGowan and I found ourselves on similar paths in our search to bridge analog sonics into our digital worlds. What you have sitting in front of you today is the culmination of 3+ years of extensive R&D and real world testing. It’s been a fascinating journey, and I think it’s an interesting read to see how and why we got to where we are today. I invite you to join us for a little back story.
But hey, feel free to skip it if you just want to play with the box. (That’s probably what I would do.)
Los Angeles Audio Production, circa 1993. The principle audio concerns in my life at that point in time dealt mostly with tape distortion, headroom, noise, how to automate and recall mixes, and which transparent console to buy. There was enough distortion in the world back then and “searching for mojo” was not really on my radar. I already had as much mojo as I needed with my 100% tape based analog workflow.
Fast forward 15 years to 2008... It was a gradual process, but by 2008, my recording process had become completely digital. The tape machines were gone, and I was left with a recording chain that was devoid of all the analog “artifacts” that I had fought for so long. The chief concerns and “issues” of 1993 were no longer a problem, but there were new problems introduced that had no long standing history of audio engineering solutions for fixing them. Digititus had arrived. It was new, uncharted territory - and it was pervasive and deceptively ugly.
By 2008 I had solidly begun the transition into ITB and Hybrid mixing. But something was missing, and it wasn’t just the old JH24. I hadn’t quite figured it out yet, but I was feeling somewhat uneasy with mixing ITB - although day by day it was becoming more and more of a necessity for both myself and my clients. There was no turning back.
The realization for me hit hard one day when I was mixing a big show for Disney at O'Henry’s Studio A. Studio A was fantastic - certainly one of my favorite studios of all time. It had the biggest API on the West Coast and was automated with Neve Flying Faders. They had a large compliment of classic high end outboard gear. Sweet!! It was going to be a great mix day. But on that day, about mid way through my mix after numerous client requests, a light bulb went off and I realized that I was only using the two large Pro Tools systems I had brought with me and the 2 track return of the massive automated console. The entire glorious 88 channel API and all the studio outboard was essentially bypassed as I sat there mixing ITB because my client needed recall and automation
overseas. Aaaaargh!!!

Back at my own place where I could choose my preferred workflow, mixing through my transparent console was not helping matters much either, and I eventually realized I would have to look elsewhere to find the analog vibe I was missing from the old days. Industry wide there was already a search to bring back some of the “analog love” that many of us had found missing in our ITB digital mixes. I could feel it resonating through the audio community like a distant peal of thunder across the desert....the realities of living in a digital age were mixed with discontent.
It was sometime during that period that I started to experiment with running mixes through discrete class A mic preamps. More than a few told me what I was doing was “wrong”, but in my mind, I was hearing a lot of benefits - such a more musical tone due to the saturation and 2nd order harmonic distortion. In the old days we could never seem to get quite far enough away from the distortion and artifacts, but in this digital age, somehow adding them back in was making me smile. Processing through these analog circuits was starting to bring back some of the analog goodness I was missing, and as a side benefit, the taming of spurious transients ended up yielding a higher overall “loudness” level without compression or limiting. This was a really helpful on mixes that were headed to mastering as they required less compression and limiting to get them to the level they needed to be at for professional release. So I pushed on. As I progressed on my journey and began talking about it online, I noticed this idea began resonating with a lot of people. But there were some downsides to working this way. The workflow was kludgy at best, and the ability to gain stage creatively and cascade back and forth as I wanted to was not
there. I was using circuits that were not designed to do what I wanted them to do. I couldn’t get the gain staging right, and it was difficult to get the drive and push dialed in like I used to able to do with those old behemoth consoles from the 70’s. I was getting more and more frustrated. The sound of those old API and the Neve consoles was haunting me every time I reached for a Pro Tools keyboard.
And so....the concept for the Silver Bullet was born.
Somewhere back in the recesses of my mind it began to slowly take shape. In subsequent conversations with Brad, we found ourselves on similar paths, and eventually we teamed up to bring about a workflow and audio solution for digital ITB users that didn’t exist at that point in time. And here we are - almost 4 years later....with a box that doesn’t easily entertain description.
So by now you’re probably asking yourself : "what does the Silver Bullet do, and what is a ToneAmp?"
The Silver Bullet began its life as a dual MOJO Amp box, and gradually we added what we believe to be essential and useful features for those who are tracking and mixing ITB. (That’s “In The Box” or “completely digital inside a computer” for those of you who have been hiding under a rock for the last 10 years.)
It is comprised of multiple analog circuits designed to allow what we in the audio community refer to as “classic analog tone” to be simply and elegantly inserted and manipulated into your DAW. In other words - it was initially designed to put a healthy dose of analog tone directly into your DAW’s (Digital Audio Workstation’s) mix bus. But it grew beyond that.

We have had endless transformer listening sessions, and many, many revisions of the analog electronics in the TONE- AMPTM. What we ultimately ended up with is two completely different sounding vintage inspired MOJO Amp’s that we feel are “as good as it gets” without compromise in their sonics or tonality. Brad and I didn’t design the Silver Bullet to a price point, we designed it for our own personal sonic aesthetics and engineering needs - and we believe the build is forward thinking and world class.
The Silver Bullet’s MOJO Amps are controlled by a front panel that is simple and elegant - not all that different in workflow than your favorite guitar amp. Add the detented pots into the mix for convenient recall, and you have a very user friendly analog device that integrates seamlessly with your ITB workflow.
There are quite simply just two controls that will lead you into a world of Mojo - Gain and Output. Push the “Gain” and pull back the “Output” for more harmonic goodness and Mojo - or go the opposite direction for a more transparent signal path while still retaining a nice analog three dimensionality and width. These two circuits are the “A” and “N” that you see on the front panel. They represent the best of the best in my opinion - two classic American and British console sounds.
This unique workflow allows you to cascade and combine the gain-staging and sonics of vintage LFAC’s (Large Format Analog Consoles) in a way that has not been easily or inexpensively achievable up to this point. When cascading the MOJO Amp’s, you will have the ability to drive and cascade / combine these two classic circuits into each other, creating tones that were previously only available by using two classic analog consoles. This concept of cascading is a long held secret with old school mix engineers. Back in the “old days” it was often popular to track on Neve consoles and mix on API’s or sometimes SSL’s to get a more diverse sonic signature in the end product. Savvy engineers often inserted Neve based circuitry into their SSL or API mixes for added depth. This sonic diversity gives a rich harmonic flavor that allows for added texture and depth of field that often exceeds the sum of both
consoles. In this same classic tradition, cascading the Silver Bullets MOJO Amp’s gives you access to a remarkably rich sonic palate. Add to that the ability to cascade them in either direction (SWAP) and you have a sonic adventure awaiting your experimentation.
The Silver Bullet is a gain-staging dream come true, and will reward your experimentations with rich harmonic goodness that is very similar sonically to mixing on those classic American and British consoles. You should be aware though, that there is a LOT OF GAIN in the Silver Bullet - and with that gain comes some responsibility on your part. Use it wisely.
OK then. That pretty much covers the history. Make sure to check out the application notes for some good suggestions on how to interface the Silver Bullet into your production world. I hope you find the Silver Bullet as essential to your work flow and sonic signature as I have. Best of luck - and enjoy!
Regards,
drBill |
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Post by Ward on Jan 3, 2016 20:43:27 GMT -6
Advice: Track finished sounds. Don't leave it to the mix to fix. Track great audio of great performances.
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 3, 2016 20:56:33 GMT -6
How does the silver bullet affects the mix bus? At the risk of sounding like a broken record, sales weasel or thread hijacker : This is copied from the introduction of the User Manual : (And really, it gives a lot of history and reasons as to why I'm comfortable working without a large format console these days....) PS - sorry for the length, and I know English is not your first language, but....
Over three years ago, Brad McGowan and I found ourselves on similar paths in our search to bridge analog sonics into our digital worlds. What you have sitting in front of you today is the culmination of 3+ years of extensive R&D and real world testing. It’s been a fascinating journey, and I think it’s an interesting read to see how and why we got to where we are today. I invite you to join us for a little back story.
But hey, feel free to skip it if you just want to play with the box. (That’s probably what I would do.)
Los Angeles Audio Production, circa 1993. The principle audio concerns in my life at that point in time dealt mostly with tape distortion, headroom, noise, how to automate and recall mixes, and which transparent console to buy. There was e (SWAP!
Regards,
drBillIn other words you like the sonic imprint of consoles but you dont like the space it takes, the service it needs the power bills etc. And there must have been a reason why you have not created a plug in. My English is not perfect but in the end we both like some analog garlic on the mix bus. Maybe for diffrent reasons, yes. I never said that it cant be done without it, I just say I cant do it ITB. I think the concept is intresting but they are not yet avaiable in the EU? |
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Post by drbill on Jan 3, 2016 21:52:55 GMT -6
Yes, I like the sonic imprint of consoles. My new CRM doesn't have the room (well, it does, but it's not the most important thing to me, and I've made decisions to go another direction - hybrid). Service really isn't a problem from my point of view. And power is not a huge issue for me either. Yes, I think we both like some "analog garlic". LOL
Like I mentioned, maybe ITB just doesn't suit your style of working, or you don't "think" creatively ITB. For whatever reason, I made the transition fairly easily, while others I know just can't ever get it like they want it without an analog console. I don't see either as "right or wrong" - just different ways of working.
I don't say my ITB / Hybrid mixes are "better" than console mixes - but rather it's the way I've decided to work and it suits my sonic esthetic. It's unusual to see people who like to mix on consoles agree that mixing ITB / Hybrid can be just as good as a console mix though. I have no idea why, but it does seem to come off as a bit of insecurity or perhaps snobbish-ness to those with a differing opinion... Music is so personal, I just can't see a right or wrong in this.
Although they have just started shipping a couple of weeks ago, there are Silver Bullets in the EU - Sweden, I think the UK, and Germany.
bp
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 4, 2016 0:07:03 GMT -6
Well, I'm currently mixing 100% ITB in PT12.4, with all the Fabfilter plugs, waves platinum bundle, and other misc plugs all pushed up to 96k/32 float, linear phase, look ahead and oversampling everywhere, my beast of a computer handles it all no problem, I also have killer custom conversion and monitoring i know like the back of my hand. Oh how i've tried, mixes can sound pretty good with a LOT of careful work, it can get me about 75% there, but i cannot achieve anything ITB that really satisfies me, let alone something I'd consider great, there is certainly no way on gods green earth that this rig touches the fun, quality or ease of achieving a mix thats been had in some of the big boy console based studio's i've been in, the assertion that ITB is somehow on par with that stuff is just comical, the width, depth, height, positioning and solidity of image isn't even close, to my ears ITB lays its flaccid dimension, and vague processing on top of the sound, the more processing I do, the worse it gets, whereas OTB processing jumps into and becomes a rock solid part of the sound, a tangibility that is just right, it is a very different animal. So I just call ITB what it actually is, an mystery meat easy burger for a fast food music industry, I don't begrudge that at all, those happy meals can be fun and fairly tasty if they keep you from starving to death haha, but trying to sell the notion that those happy meals are on par with a steak dinner at a 5 star restaurant is just laughable to anyone who's had both.
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 4, 2016 2:37:30 GMT -6
Well, I'm currently mixing 100% ITB in PT12.4, with all the Fabfilter plugs, waves platinum bundle, and other misc plugs all pushed up to 96k/32 float, linear phase, look ahead and oversampling everywhere, my beast of a computer handles it all no problem, I also have killer custom conversion and monitoring i know like the back of my hand. Oh how i've tried, mixes can sound pretty good with a LOT of careful work, it can get me about 75% there, but i cannot achieve anything ITB that really satisfies me, let alone something I'd consider great, there is certainly no way on gods green earth that this rig touches the fun, quality or ease of achieving a mix thats been had in some of the big boy console based studio's i've been in, the assertion that ITB is somehow on par with that stuff is just comical, the width, depth, height, positioning and solidity of image isn't even close, to my ears ITB lays its flaccid dimension, and vague processing on top of the sound, the more processing I do, the worse it gets, whereas OTB processing jumps into and becomes a rock solid part of the sound, a tangibility that is just right, it is a very different animal. So I just call ITB what it actually is, an mystery meat easy burger for a fast food music industry, I don't begrudge that at all, those happy meals can be fun and fairly tasty if they keep you from starving to death haha, but trying to sell the notion that those happy meals are on par with a steak dinner at a 5 star restaurant is just laughable to anyone who's had both. Intresting we share the same opinion and my setup tends to be more on the low end idea. My guesswork is that the crosstalk has a lot to do with the image on the console. I did try to mimic it myself, and I used VCC etc. I never had the same feel like with my fucked up mini mixer. If the Silver Bullet does the trick? In this case I am bumfucked with my opinion and have to send money to drbill |
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Post by porkyman on Jan 4, 2016 2:54:48 GMT -6
i just recently got a little 16x4 studiomaster. the old one pre ross. monitoring through the board makes a really big difference to me. the stereo field is a lot different. it only took me a day though to realize that i wouldnt be using the eq's ever. the recall is just not worth it. i dont think id have the patience to mix 100% OTB.
i also found that there isnt a huge difference between summing multiple stems OTB and just having 1 2bus like Dr. Bill suggests. i even thought it might have sounded better sometimes. i think mixing is 90% good tracking anyways. i dont believe any of you guys could polish some of the turds ive been producing.
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 4, 2016 10:41:44 GMT -6
I needed to check that I am not totally stupid, it was not a scientific check for this I would have to start from scratch checking I have everywhere the same levels. The image on the console mix was stable as hell. The image on the ITB summing was felt some kind of wired. Overall I think drbill is right. Its a taste thing, and that taste seems to help me to make better choices. |
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Post by svart on Jan 4, 2016 10:55:30 GMT -6
I'll reiterate the theory I have..
That OTB summing/mixing introduces various latencies and propagation delays through the analog system, inserts, bussing, etc. Each thing you add to the chain adds slight changes in straight delay, group delay, frequency anomalies, distortions, etc.
In layman's terms, this creates more tiny differences that the ear and brain perceive and interpret as things like Haas effect and harmonic distortion, which make things sound bigger and more full than normal.
It's adding some small amounts of the effects we add normally during mixing to make things sound bigger and more full.
That's the reason it works better, just like why people still prefer the euphonic nature of tube distortion when vastly "superior" digital devices are available with super low distortion.
The modern DAW is too perfect.
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Post by drbill on Jan 4, 2016 11:28:47 GMT -6
If the Silver Bullet does the trick? In this case I am bumfucked with my opinion and have to send money to drbill Haha! Don't send it to ME!! Contact : Louder than Liftoff. |
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Post by drbill on Jan 4, 2016 11:33:45 GMT -6
I'll reiterate the theory I have.. That OTB summing/mixing introduces various latencies and propagation delays through the analog system, inserts, bussing, etc. Each thing you add to the chain adds slight changes in straight delay, group delay, frequency anomalies, distortions, etc. In layman's terms, this creates more tiny differences that the ear and brain perceive and interpret as things like Haas effect and harmonic distortion, which make things sound bigger and more full than normal. It's adding some small amounts of the effects we add normally during mixing to make things sound bigger and more full. That's the reason it works better, just like why people still prefer the euphonic nature of tube distortion when vastly "superior" digital devices are available with super low distortion. The modern DAW is too perfect. I think I tend to agree with most of this. The Daw IS too perfect. How to address those perfection issues is where the creative art comes in. This is one reason we suggest tracking, production, mixing and mastering with the SB. The little "anamolies" build up, and the total is bigger than the sum of the parts. It's not just a "2Mix" slap it on at the end box. It's a production esthetic. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2016 12:44:04 GMT -6
For me it's Harrison Mixbus. I might also sound like a broken record. :-)
Just when i have the console back up running, fed by the new MOTU 24Ao, just when i made a few mixes that brings back memories how *nice* it is to mix with a console, the instant amalgamation, the gainstaging that feels natural to me because i come from the analog side of things, and especially the EQs that i always feel are the weak point ITB most of the time...awww, it was so nice.
And now Mixbus 3 with all those gimmicks that 2 did not have, Asio on Windows, control surface support and still this godly track, EQ, dynamics, tape and bus emulation.
I dunno. I guess in the long term i will use the console for just a few things. Sound experiments in the analog domain. Submixes that i want to use the console for it's color. Esp. electronic music stuff that needs huge bass and some real color. S.t. like that.
But with MB and Klanghelm and a few inexpensive or free plugins ITB becomes just as natural and powerful in workflow as the console minus noise floor, analog hassles etc.. At least for me. I can't help myself, it is just the way it is, and i love analog console sound. In future most probably i will use the console only if i want it's specific color in a project. That's already pretty obvious to me. The advantages are just superior, full recall, precision and now very good analog sounding emulations and affordable quality plugins nowadays. And if more or other color is needed, or i wish to patch something in i can still go hybrid instantly. That's the great thing today.
You don't have to go for a dogma, you can choose just in the moment with nowadays technical possibilities that are affordable for nearly everyone.
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Post by svart on Jan 4, 2016 12:54:37 GMT -6
I'll reiterate the theory I have.. That OTB summing/mixing introduces various latencies and propagation delays through the analog system, inserts, bussing, etc. Each thing you add to the chain adds slight changes in straight delay, group delay, frequency anomalies, distortions, etc. In layman's terms, this creates more tiny differences that the ear and brain perceive and interpret as things like Haas effect and harmonic distortion, which make things sound bigger and more full than normal. It's adding some small amounts of the effects we add normally during mixing to make things sound bigger and more full. That's the reason it works better, just like why people still prefer the euphonic nature of tube distortion when vastly "superior" digital devices are available with super low distortion. The modern DAW is too perfect. I think I tend to agree with most of this. The Daw IS too perfect. How to address those perfection issues is where the creative art comes in. This is one reason we suggest tracking, production, mixing and mastering with the SB. The little "anamolies" build up, and the total is bigger than the sum of the parts. It's not just a "2Mix" slap it on at the end box. It's a production esthetic. On the other hand you also have too much imperfect as well. It's all about balance as we all know. It just goes back to the 80's when digital gear started coming on the scene and.. We've heard the horror stories about old "classic" gear getting chucked into the garbage bins in favor of the new hot digital stuff.. Only to find out that it was all missing the "mojo".. Thus kicking off the classic gear arms race that resulted in grossly overpriced "vintage" gear and reissue madness. Ever since then, we have programmers chasing the plug-in panacea, where the plug-in sounds indistinguishable from the real gear. So we have digital gear trying it's best to emulate the inconsistencies and non-linearities of analog gear to the point of emulating the hiss and hum.. It's madness I tell you.. Human sacrifice! Cats and dogs, living together! Mass hysteria! |
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Post by popmann on Jan 4, 2016 13:29:41 GMT -6
For the record, ha, I never said analog mixing would result in a better end result. I was explaining that what he's hearing is what I've heard in countless home studios for the last 20 years during the rise of the DAW.....the easiest way to explain is that if you're mixing, at the two hour mark the analog is better....the longer you spend (assuming you're diligently chipping away the stone and not haphazardly spinning knobs looking for the "better" knob)--the digital will improve, where the analog won't improve much. So, if you're a musician wanting to record and make a decent mix quickly--yes, that A&H mixer will do "better" contextually due to the knowledge and time component. Actually, it will do BETTER than nicer desks with bigger power rails--as part of what makes it "gel better" is the sort of dropping and smearing of "non musical" transients.
I have worked hard to get happy with the software systems that the market has chosen. They are, IMO/E inferior to hardware digital in many cases....inferior to analog in other cases....purpose built gear is simply better. BUT...that doesn't mean that I can't turn out the best recordings of my life 100% in software now for the first time ever. Now, I know that OP is looking fo secrets....and I've been completely open here about things as I've found them on the journey--from gain staging in software to absolute phase to cutting low frequencies from the difference (or "side") component on busses and how the LCR movement has resurged in software DUE to the insufficiencies of the summing of floating point software....or getting the actual creative sound sculpting on the way in....or reaching for saturation plug ins before EQ and compression to manage non musical transients....there are a lot of pieces. If there was a single "put this plug in on it and it will sound just like analog summing"....we'd all own that, but there isn't (IME). The flaws, or objectively I suppose "difference" is too fundamental. But, you have to adjust if you want to do it. If you don't--then, I still say just mix on the little A&H. If that makes your ears happy--that is what you should do.
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