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Post by tasteliketape on Dec 10, 2015 22:17:51 GMT -6
I've recorded my first live drums (live as in a bar with full band) so my question is would you try to trim all the bleed from say tom mics
just keep the hits or automate volume an leave bleed or gate or? Any other help mixing live drums would be appreciated
there are 7 drum mics 1 snare 1 kik 2overheads 3 Tom's
thanks guys
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Post by svart on Dec 10, 2015 22:22:10 GMT -6
I'd try to cut to silence between hits on the toms first. If that doesn't work, or sounds strange, try riding the volume on them at least.
For the overheads, usually there will be some droning frequency in the 1k-5k region from the amps on stage. See if you can find it and notch it. There might be one in the 100-600 region as well. HPF to get rid of the bass guitar boom.
For the rest, it's a balance between finding frequencies that bleed too much and doing small cuts, and making everything else fit together.
Do you have some of the tracks handy so we can hear what you have to work with?
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Post by tasteliketape on Dec 10, 2015 22:30:05 GMT -6
First thanks great advice I'll see if ican get permission to post files from the band
they hired a sound man an all i could do was take direct out from the board (and it was a mackie) but overall it's usable
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Post by EmRR on Dec 10, 2015 22:37:56 GMT -6
Depending on how toms are played, many times you can't cut them without obviously altering cymbal and ambient sound. If you expand something like 6-8dB you can make the cymbal change less noticeable and get a lot more control at the same time. Expand with lookahead triggering. Of course if there are very few hits, it may be as easy to automate instead, or if expansion isn't working cleanly.
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Post by jazznoise on Dec 11, 2015 6:12:36 GMT -6
For busy kits, I tend to edit the tom tracks so that there's only the tom hits. Much more natural than gating, especially since I'll be compressing the close mics. On slower tracks I just automate them up and down.
The main thing is to try and set up the mics so that there's no obtrusive bleed - usually the most offensive is spiky off axis response from things like crashes and rides. Particularly hard to fix after tracking without taking all the top off your close mics.
If there's not much on yr overheads, putting an expander on and feeding the sidechain from the close mics can give them some extra bloom. I do this with snare the odd time, but it can be good for toms too.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 11, 2015 10:02:58 GMT -6
I don't know how you guys removing all but tom hits do it. 95% of the time it's painfully obvious to me that it's been done, listening to the cymbal levels change with the muting.
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Post by jazznoise on Dec 11, 2015 10:27:47 GMT -6
I mic to keep the bleed down, but usually the rest of the band masks it. Big distorted guitars or synths will cover it up completely.
You gotta cut so that the drum and whatever cymbal decays are in the clip. If they're bashing the cymbals on every beat or something it might be unworkable. But at that level of unsubtly the isolation of the toms probably isn't a vital musical element at that point.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,952 
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Post by ericn on Dec 11, 2015 10:29:38 GMT -6
I don't know how you guys removing all but tom hits do it. 95% of the time it's painfully obvious to me that it's been done, listening to the cymbal levels change with the muting. I agree, it really all comes down to mic choice and position. |
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Post by tasteliketape on Dec 11, 2015 11:07:54 GMT -6
Mic choice and position is one of my biggest problems. They wanted to just set up an play they hired a sound man that actually was pretty put out that i was even there lol let alone making suggestions
The female singer is in the oklahoma blues hall of fame so it was a trade i record them she sings on some of my stuff so no real pressure (except I look bad if I can't pull it off)
So far your suggestions are working really well I can get this where I want it to be but with your help will get me there faster thanks this is one of the things that make this place what it is
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 11, 2015 11:12:10 GMT -6
How's it sound without the tom mics, just overs?
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Post by jazznoise on Dec 11, 2015 11:14:01 GMT -6
My only other big thing would be to check the overheads phase with the kit - with this kind of "blind" setup he almost certainly didn't. Check phase, and of needs be delaying the OH's slightly (0-25mS) can help clear up the initial transient of the drums.
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Post by stratboy on Dec 11, 2015 11:23:16 GMT -6
How's it sound without the tom mics, just overs? This. Start with just the kick and OH. Get them sounding as good as you can. Next, add snare Mic, just enough to make it smack. Great suggestions for dealing with bass and gtr bleed. Use those on these four mics and see where you are. That might be enough in context of a live recording. Start simple. |
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Post by tasteliketape on Dec 11, 2015 11:26:37 GMT -6
Jcoutu1 thanks checking the toms way down with more in the overhead I'll try that
also thought of the overhead phase thing but completely forgot to do it
man you guys rock thanks
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 11, 2015 11:43:45 GMT -6
Overheads are where it should be, phase em up fo sho! you can gate the toms musically with a quality gate, FF proG is awesome, and range them way down, all the drum bleed into the other instruments isn't going away, and that should smooth the toms re entering the picture, add punch and clarity, of course without hearing the tracks, take with a grain of salt.
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Post by tasteliketape on Dec 11, 2015 11:57:27 GMT -6
Trying to get the band to ok posting tracks would never post anything that wasn't mine without permission.
But so far these suggestions are working well
Cutting out tom hits gets kinda weird sounding in this application.
I'm trying all suggestions though
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 11, 2015 11:59:27 GMT -6
With a live recording of a blues band, I wouldn't even think about cutting out the tom hits. More modern, heavy music, cutting all day. 90% of the blues bands that I'm mixing don't have the toms mic'd.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 11, 2015 12:03:56 GMT -6
...to expound, I"m just mixing them live, not recording them. If I were recording them, I'd mic the toms to be prudent, but wouldn't plan to use them come mix time unless it was necessary.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 11, 2015 12:18:04 GMT -6
If they're bashing the cymbals on every beat or something it might be unworkable. But at that level of unsubtly the isolation of the toms probably isn't a vital musical element at that point. With that level of unsubtly expansion is about getting the toms heard without having glaring cymbal bleed at all times. 90% of what I encounter as a for hire tracking room. I rarely encounter subtle drummers, and when they are subtle you can use OH and kick, or just a room mic. Rare to meet a drummer who understands relative volume of cymbals versus everything else. I do have a few guys who have a ride and HH, which they rarely use, and a single mic will take care of their sound. |
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Post by schmalzy on Dec 11, 2015 14:48:28 GMT -6
How's it sound without the tom mics, just overs? Exactly what I was going to say. Maybe, if you can get enough of the stick attack for the toms from the overheads but the tone and/or weight just isn't there, you could aggressively low-pass the toms - 200hz-ish - and use the close mics for just the tone/ring of the drums. It'll cut out a lot of the cymbal stuff. If that's still not right, maybe mult those tom mics and throw a transient designer at them. Really emphasize the attack and gate it pretty tightly after the transient designer attempting to allow just the attack through. Maybe try an expander instead of a hard gate for this to keep it from getting too obviously off-and-on. You'll just have to see how the transient designer does at emphasizing just the attack. You might be able to get away with some Now you've got a fader you can mix in a little for extra attack, a fader you can push up for body and tone, and hopefully much of the tom sound from the overheads. Check your phase if you start processing this much - something might get wonky and need to have the polarity flipped. Good luck! |
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Post by tasteliketape on Dec 11, 2015 22:44:22 GMT -6
Just a quick major thanks to all i was kinda worried about the drum sound but with your suggestions there rockin major major thanks
vocal bass guitar keys I can handle a so again thanks
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Post by jazznoise on Dec 12, 2015 19:52:49 GMT -6
If they're bashing the cymbals on every beat or something it might be unworkable. But at that level of unsubtly the isolation of the toms probably isn't a vital musical element at that point. With that level of unsubtly expansion is about getting the toms heard without having glaring cymbal bleed at all times. 90% of what I encounter as a for hire tracking room. I rarely encounter subtle drummers, and when they are subtle you can use OH and kick, or just a room mic. Rare to meet a drummer who understands relative volume of cymbals versus everything else. I do have a few guys who have a ride and HH, which they rarely use, and a single mic will take care of their sound. I did an EP of my own stuff when I was about 19 that had about 5 cymbal crashes on the whole thing that was much the same. The dynamics of a kit are much easier to control when the drums are all of comparative volume for the same velocity of drum strike. My current drummer has his hi hat raised now to try and make him hit it a little quieter, but it's the nature of rock to have heavy cymbal bashing. Good close mic'ing techniques, spacing the kit when possible and tuning the toms to project really helps. |
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Post by tasteliketape on Dec 12, 2015 20:17:19 GMT -6
I downloaded TDR NOVA a dynamic eq a couple weeks ago it was free anyway it killed on the toms took them from awful sounding to very usable , but in the final mix they will be very pulled back point was I never used a dynamic eq before but this one seems to rock
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Post by forgotteng on Dec 23, 2015 22:27:55 GMT -6
Fun read. Drums are the holy grail for me. I've tried so many things. Fixing badly recorded drums while mixing helped me to learn more strategic ways of recording and micing drums. It often comes down to how they were miced but most importantly how the drummer plays and how consistently they play.
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Post by tasteliketape on Dec 23, 2015 23:07:05 GMT -6
The most eye opening part for me was I pulled the compression off the Kik just EQ and its starts thumping seems the compression killed the sound of the kik
Also ended up using just overheards mixed with kik and snare worked well still have plenty of toms coming thru (there not a lot of tom hits)
Thanks again to all
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Post by tasteliketape on Jan 17, 2016 12:50:45 GMT -6
Just would like to update you guys and another BIG THANKS I started this project as a trade for my recording the band live and they would do vocals tracks for me
Well because of all the help I've had from this thered there so excited from the results there gonna to pay me to do a cd
Plus the drummer brought a friend over to listen that does a lot of recording in Dallas and he has hired me to mix and engineer his drums
A million thanks to all
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