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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 1, 2013 16:32:03 GMT -6
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Post by popmann on Oct 1, 2013 19:31:21 GMT -6
I don't know, man...I honestly feel like drum sampling is done. I felt like RealGigaDrums did it, but didn't have many kits, and what a huge PIA to use with different mic layers...along came BFD and gave it a better GUI to work with the various mics-but, they were a small company and didn't spend the money to get a great set up (so the third party addons were CRUCIAL)...so, they fixed that with BFD2 by using Air Studios, a BIGGER selections of drums, and gave people the ability to process inside the engine, which I frankly don't much understand. If you need a processed kit, they should've just had some "economy" kits that were pre blended to various balances and served as better "tap out a demo and have it sound like a record out of the gate"--but....
I have a hard time imagining buying this. However, I will also say that FXpansion--I've had some personal dealings with them, and they are a stand up a company--which I can't say for most of the interactions I've had with software companies. I don't think sample SOUND is the problem. But, certainly if you don't own a comprehensive library (ala BFD2 or Superior2)...you buy this--no questions asked, IMO.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Oct 2, 2013 5:20:40 GMT -6
Some of those kits sound very real. Usually the cymbals sound cheesy in any library but these seemed to hold up.
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Post by levon on Oct 2, 2013 6:31:58 GMT -6
Some of those kits sound very real. Usually the cymbals sound cheesy in any library but these seemed to hold up. I often play live cymbals and hi-hats to my sampled kits, sounds pretty good and gives it a natural feeling. I'm using mainly Superior2 and SSD4. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 2, 2013 8:03:02 GMT -6
I play some percussion parts along with my superior drummer, and that helps, but I just get impatient when I need to create my own beats and then automate all of them dynamically, so I just overlook parts that aren't quite right when using SD'd beats. I know I'll have to repair them eventually, but in time, I hope to replace them with a real player, so they end up staying on the back burner.
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Post by popmann on Oct 2, 2013 9:14:17 GMT -6
Beats or sounds? Those are two very different things. Whether you find the built in beats useful or not doesn't speak to the sample quality--those are just a little midi library of content they all come with--that I wish they didn't. Useless space in the GUI. Let EZDrummer and the like have that audience. It' the difference in the day of who had a drum machine and who had a drum sampler. Not semantics. Two very different levels of quality....very different uses.
No one knows when I use BFD2...unless they're a drummer focusing on figuring out tells of midi. I just can't imagine having the time. Drummers are too good. Too inexpensive. I mean--when you're coming up with a song idea, you don't need (or WANT) the kind of complexity of an accurate drum library. You want something that sounds like a record when you tap. That's been mostly mature tech for decades. And if you need inspiring beats--wow....aren't there midi libraries out there...that are cheap and use with whatever sounds you want? I do remember the original Steinberg Groove Agent had some beats in it I loved....sounds were terrible, so I always just internally routed the midi out from it to BFD. But, that just comes down to how much you like the drummer who played for them--and their take on beats (what IS a mid tempo funk beat to THEM)...
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 2, 2013 11:29:13 GMT -6
JMO, It may be a good writing tool? but those things will never match the real deal, as long as a competent drummer is in the moment, emotionally charged, and musically minded. The SC samples sound void of groove, and extremely robotic to me as usual. I understand why someone would use BFD to write, as these samples are recorded well, but they never sound real when you pattern them together, total emotion free groove killers, and astoundingly, they're everywhere??? The below link is what i'm talking about, it's a thing of beauty as a drum part, it stands on its own as a piece of music, you don't even need the rest of the band! It's pure emotion, you can hear him growling into transitions, I understand that it's not easily accomplished, but this "emotion" is what people should be striving for musically, it's what makes great music great, somehow this idea has been completely lost on todays cut n paste music? www.saladrecords.com/BonhamFile22.mp3edit; here's some more www.saladrecords.com/bonhamfiles.htm |
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 2, 2013 16:37:53 GMT -6
Nobody is claiming it's going to replace real drummers...
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Post by popmann on Oct 2, 2013 18:57:42 GMT -6
I would venture a huge percentage of the buyers of these uber drum libraries are looking to sequence rather than record a drummer. You don't think that's the case?
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 3, 2013 6:50:31 GMT -6
Well, sure...but what I'm saying is that no one is arguing that it's "better" than having a real drummer.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 3, 2013 11:26:07 GMT -6
Nobody is claiming it's going to replace real drummers... Understood, apologies, never thought that was your point, my response was alluding to the many tunes on the radio that sound like BFD to me, that was the intended focus of my point, didn't mean to derail the topic. |
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Post by popmann on Oct 3, 2013 12:32:20 GMT -6
I just get testy because there's a lot of drummers out there who play great and do remote sessions which will kill for not big dollars. The actual empowering part of DAW tech is that you're no longer bound by the drummers in your area...or studios...if there's a guy in Indiana with a great kit set up who plays well, you can have him cut tracks regardless of platform. But, instead, there are more and more people using the to become amateur finger drummers. I'm a good one--from a day when that was one of the only viable choices....but, NOW? Hells no. I've got better things to do than slave over sequences that will end up being "fine"--when I can easily collaborate with drummers with decades of experience and nice kits with a phone call or email, I guess--but, I like to talk if it's a remote gig.
I think the main market for these is someone selling the idea that you no longer need a drummer. Simultaneously, we who have been there KNOW that's not true--these are amazing tools, but not the right tool for a majority of people actually buying them. You know?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 12:53:24 GMT -6
i think you guys are forgetting that a lot of people use these tools alongside sample replacement activities with real drums. If they don't have access to a great room, but can still track 4 or 6 mics on a drum kit and their kit sounds terrible, they can replace the live drums with the sampled drums and still get the performance.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 3, 2013 13:06:47 GMT -6
they can replace the live drums with the sampled drums and still get the performance. No Saxman! lol! |
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Post by popmann on Oct 3, 2013 15:54:00 GMT -6
i think you guys are forgetting that a lot of people use these tools alongside sample replacement activities with real drums. If they don't have access to a great room, but can still track 4 or 6 mics on a drum kit and their kit sounds terrible, they can replace the live drums with the sampled drums and still get the performance. Well, that IS why I have it...but, not to replace. The scenario you describe is an awful use, IME. You actually can NOT replace and "get the performance". If you need to use an eKit, use one. Playing an instrument is a constant feedback loop between player and sound they're making. Totally interdependent. I have ZIPPO issue with a drummer playing an eKit....who is comfortable playing said instrument. That's a different thing all together. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 3, 2013 15:59:37 GMT -6
Well, if you're doing demos...and a one-off song, off-the-card charge for a real drummer is at least $100 per song...that can wind up being a good chunk out of my pocket...Sometimes it's just easier to drag and drop.
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Post by popmann on Oct 3, 2013 21:15:30 GMT -6
Sure it is. Those are song demos, no? Like to shop? everyone has always used drum machines for that....and now they sound good. Yay team. I think everyone needs a drum sample instrument of some type...don't misunderstand me. But, drag and drop quickie things--you, too, are looking for beats, not sounds--right?
I mean, back in the day I could spend 4-8hours just on a drum sequence. Getting it to feel right and breathe through the song. I don't do THAT for a demo, either. I spend 10min tapping a 2 bar beat and hit "loop". Occassionally I'll have to come up with a stop or half time beat to go with for the middle 8 or something. I wrote a tune not long ago with a Liquid Grooves loop. I was digging through all the old Akai CDs and seeing what I'd convert and what to trash...and pull up this beat that inspired me to pick up the bass and go to town....
Anyway--I'm saying BFD or any of these big things are inherently too complex to make demos with. There are much better options intended for tapping a quick beat for a demo....and then once you get to final cut time, you owe it to yourself to invest the money. Or at least I do. It changes everything for me.
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