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Post by EmRR on Oct 19, 2015 13:46:31 GMT -6
To figure out why I go ballistic when people ask for output attenuators on preamps and blend controls on compressors. I don't need them explained to me, I just find them to be unnecessary, and bad form electronically (extra bells and whistles in the way). It seems many people won't even consider either product without these 'feature sets'. My gut says
YOU KIDS GET OFF MY DAMN LAWN!!!
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Post by Ward on Oct 20, 2015 10:01:19 GMT -6
Blend controls are for people who either A. Don't know how to use compressors or B. Can't make a decision.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 20, 2015 14:45:39 GMT -6
or they want to use them as inserts instead of as sends and still achieve the results of parallel compression?
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Post by Ward on Oct 21, 2015 2:21:59 GMT -6
or they want to use them as inserts instead of as sends and still achieve the results of parallel compression? Maybe
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Post by svart on Oct 22, 2015 8:03:27 GMT -6
Things I find unnecessary in tracking/mixing that make me cringe when folks talk about them like they found the holy grail when I know it's just a fad they are going through as they read online "tricks" that they think will make them pro before they put in the necessary amount of time to actually learn how to record/mix well:
Sidechains parallel processing multiband compression parallel/multi micing of a single source (I.E., two mics, one speaker..) mid-side processing
And for a few things that I believe make a person an absolute professional (besides having *real* professional gear):
HPF/LPF usage Organized work flow Editing/cutting instead of using gates
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Post by gouge on Oct 22, 2015 16:14:37 GMT -6
blend knobs are for people with hybrid setups that can't do parallel compression like you can on a console
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Post by gouge on Oct 22, 2015 16:19:07 GMT -6
Things I find unnecessary in tracking/mixing that make me cringe when folks talk about them like they found the holy grail when I know it's just a fad they are going through as they read online "tricks" that they think will make them pro before they put in the necessary amount of time to actually learn how to record/mix well: parallel/multi micing of a single source (I.E., two mics, one speaker..) are you kidding.
nearly every album in my record collection had the guitars multi mic'd.
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Post by jazznoise on Oct 22, 2015 17:40:22 GMT -6
Parallel compression is pretty meh for me, I'm not into it. Sometimes a split where the second is EQ'd and compressed differently is great, but I don't enjoy the "smashed + dry" thing many are crazy for. Multibands are tough - Nova 67P is the only one I like, and it's a dynamic EQ.
Multi mic'ing is fine. Sometimes necessary.
HPF and LPF's are fine for Metal or EDM, but they can sound more than a little bogus when used on more traditional fair.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 31, 2015 12:53:04 GMT -6
Kicking a sleeping dog.....
I also stopped sub-mixing within a mix years ago too. The only sub-mixing I do anymore is within the DAW when I have to do it to get dual mono files into a stereo process. I think I stopped sub-mixing once I had sufficient hardware to tackle everything individually. When I want the effect of group processing, for a long time that's been another dedicated stereo mic specifically for that purpose. Or linked processing on the way in so it doesn't have to be messed with again at mix. I haven't missed it, yet more and more it seems to be considered a necessary way of working.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Oct 31, 2015 20:55:23 GMT -6
With a console & a decent can do it all if and when I want ! That's why even if your 100% in the box a fucking Mackie is a must!
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Post by jazznoise on Nov 1, 2015 4:00:18 GMT -6
Kicking a sleeping dog..... I also stopped sub-mixing within a mix years ago too. The only sub-mixing I do anymore is within the DAW when I have to do it to get dual mono files into a stereo process. I think I stopped sub-mixing once I had sufficient hardware to tackle everything individually. When I want the effect of group processing, for a long time that's been another dedicated stereo mic specifically for that purpose. Or linked processing on the way in so it doesn't have to be messed with again at mix. I haven't missed it, yet more and more it seems to be considered a necessary way of working. I think in the world of 50 track mixes it can become very necessary just to mix with any hope of finishing it quickly. Compress the bus so that levels don't jump if you alter the sub mix a little just eventually became compress it because compression. Extremely fethisized. I kind of get annoyed when I'm handed 40+ tracks for a standard rock band set up. I'll usually first go through and see what I can down mix and delete. 5 overdubs of XY stereo guitar? 5 stereo synths? Sounds like a lot of bouncing and channel deleting to me. My band and I just recorded 2 songs down onto 14 channels live, so we have 3 or 4 vocal overdubs to do but I doubt the mix will end up needing 20 channels.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 1, 2015 9:09:33 GMT -6
That's a big piece I'm not thinking about. I don't think I've ever had more than 30 tracks to mix other than a pair of tracks sent to me by american recordings which SHOULD have been less than 30 tracks but topped 60.
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Post by delcampo on Nov 3, 2015 20:17:34 GMT -6
My current imposed "Do Not Exceed Track Limit" space is about 33. More almost always = something's getting potentially goofy or overwrought. 16-ish is my favorite zone.
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Post by Randge on Nov 6, 2015 8:08:34 GMT -6
Kicking a sleeping dog..... I also stopped sub-mixing within a mix years ago too. The only sub-mixing I do anymore is within the DAW when I have to do it to get dual mono files into a stereo process. I think I stopped sub-mixing once I had sufficient hardware to tackle everything individually. When I want the effect of group processing, for a long time that's been another dedicated stereo mic specifically for that purpose. Or linked processing on the way in so it doesn't have to be messed with again at mix. I haven't missed it, yet more and more it seems to be considered a necessary way of working. I think in the world of 50 track mixes it can become very necessary just to mix with any hope of finishing it quickly. Compress the bus so that levels don't jump if you alter the sub mix a little just eventually became compress it because compression. Extremely fethisized. I kind of get annoyed when I'm handed 40+ tracks for a standard rock band set up. I'll usually first go through and see what I can down mix and delete. 5 overdubs of XY stereo guitar? 5 stereo synths? Sounds like a lot of bouncing and channel deleting to me. My band and I just recorded 2 songs down onto 14 channels live, so we have 3 or 4 vocal overdubs to do but I doubt the mix will end up needing 20 channels. 40 tracks? The pop track i am working on now has 95 tracks and no vocals have been cut yet. Huge production. Blend and parallel compression are musts in that genre. I certainly know how to use a compressor and sometimes choose to slam it really hard and have the meters pegged and pull the mix knob back so I am using only 15% of that crushed signal. Nothing ignorant about that nor is it a fetish. It works. The Elysia X-pressor is great for that effect.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 7, 2015 9:37:10 GMT -6
I personally have never seen a need. I have a lot of trouble imagining a high percentage of audible bits related to a track list like that (95+). I keep chasing the other direction, less tracks, which of course you do too on certain types of sessions.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Nov 12, 2015 6:20:18 GMT -6
I personally have never seen a need. I have a lot of trouble imagining a high percentage of audible bits related to a track list like that (95+). I keep chasing the other direction, less tracks, which of course you do too on certain types of sessions. go listen to some modern hip-hop with an insane amount of samples and vocal ear candy occurring. their typical production style is 'one sound, one track'
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 12, 2015 8:48:42 GMT -6
Horses for courses, single tracks per sound are generally grouped up, parallel compression can be a recipe for phase smear madness, the more u use it the more phase smear you will get, it's all but useless to me but in very limited and measured ways, mid side micing can be the bomb if you're not dead certain what the desired end result should be, multi micing a single source is right as rain to me, side chains are unbelievably useful to me, and i'm a submix junky, i have 8 assignable stereo sub channels, and 5 banks of 8 channel balanced passive summing for a total of 13 stereo sub mixes, if you want to achieve pinpoint placement in a sound stage, there is no substitute for stereo sub mixes as this is the spot for buss compression to achieve that placement, I absolutely NEVER strap a compressor across the stereo buss, and i've rarely seen it done by some pretty big wig AE's, i've also never witnessed a single one of them mix into a stereo buss comp, they've added one after the fact to a very small degree though...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2015 13:01:32 GMT -6
For analog mix, i don't use submixing, simply because i have just 2 stereo group channelstrips, and honestly, i don't *need* it anyway most of the time. That said, analog mixing feels very natural and fast to me and i still get the results i want with minimal effort, mostly EQ only, minimal compression. Sometimes i apply compression or volume automation ITB before feeding to the console. Hybrid, why not... For ITB mixing i make a kind of standard use of group busses, because it sounds good in Mixbus, even compression or limiting and the filters on the stereo busses. I can get quite a lot of GR in a pleasant way with this multi stage compression, but i try to avoid this. But i admit i use levelers too often, where i should use gain automation/editing/fader riding. Guilty as charged. But it really sounds good in Mixbus most of the time and just works for me. Sometimes now also an instance of the Klanghelm gets used to do this. Honestly - still i should use more fader riding.(sigh) Also, this way i get the tape emulation, which reminds me of adding an 8-track tape recording stage in the busses. I love it and it often makes things sit very well in a mix at no cost and without even having to think about it consciously. If some tracks need more tape saturation, i simply give them their own busses just for that. Works well for me. At the moment i mostly have a drum bus, bass gets one of it's own, then typically i continue with vocals, then effects/echo for vocals, the reverb bus and then guitars, keys, whatever... Pretty basic, and i came to this order because this way i never lose focus on the essentials, and i don't tend to exaggerate guitars or keys this way. I noticed, that i used to make these too loud in many early mixes of mine, often because i thought i would underrate these tracks, coming from rhythm section/bass as a musician. I was sooo wrong. (Never listen to dedicated guitarists and keyboarders - they always feel they are too quiet, on stage, in the studio, everywhere they go. Vocalists sometimes worse. Bassmen are good AEs with balanced ears often, and sometimes drummers too. And of course many multi-instrumentalists... Personal opinion from experience. YMMV, obviously. :-D ) As for techniques like multi micing, parallel compression, gear with blend knobs, multiband compression, gate instead of editing, things that appear to some as dubious or bad style and to others as absolutely indispensible tools - whatever brings you to the goal. For sure i would try to catch bass and guitar amp tracks with 2 complimenting mics just for the option to maybe blend these to the character sound that you may not get with one mic and an EQ amyway, no matter how perfectly recorded. Many acoustic instruments, too! And yes, why not trying an M/S micing on some sources...if it works it works. Nobody is *forced* to use these techniques (well, except you have a producer in the back who forces you....). These are just tools - very good to know how it works, even if you never use it...
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Post by formatcyes on Nov 12, 2015 14:47:49 GMT -6
Horses for courses, single tracks per sound are generally grouped up, parallel compression can be a recipe for phase smear madness, the more u use it the more phase smear you will get, it's all but useless to me but in very limited and measured ways, mid side micing can be the bomb if you're not dead certain what the desired end result should be, multi micing a single source is right as rain to me, side chains are unbelievably useful to me, and i'm a submix junky, i have 8 assignable stereo sub channels, and 5 banks of 8 channel balanced passive summing for a total of 13 stereo sub mixes, if you want to achieve pinpoint placement in a sound stage, there is no substitute for stereo sub mixes as this is the spot for buss compression to achieve that placement, I absolutely NEVER strap a compressor across the stereo buss, and i've rarely seen it done by some pretty big wig AE's, i've also never witnessed a single one of them mix into a stereo buss comp, they've added one after the fact to a very small degree though... Thanks Tony, I have been mixing into a compressor then taking it off for mastering are you saying this is not what the the big wig's do? Nothing on the master buss? Thanks in advance.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 12, 2015 15:04:50 GMT -6
Horses for courses, single tracks per sound are generally grouped up, parallel compression can be a recipe for phase smear madness, the more u use it the more phase smear you will get, it's all but useless to me but in very limited and measured ways, mid side micing can be the bomb if you're not dead certain what the desired end result should be, multi micing a single source is right as rain to me, side chains are unbelievably useful to me, and i'm a submix junky, i have 8 assignable stereo sub channels, and 5 banks of 8 channel balanced passive summing for a total of 13 stereo sub mixes, if you want to achieve pinpoint placement in a sound stage, there is no substitute for stereo sub mixes as this is the spot for buss compression to achieve that placement, I absolutely NEVER strap a compressor across the stereo buss, and i've rarely seen it done by some pretty big wig AE's, i've also never witnessed a single one of them mix into a stereo buss comp, they've added one after the fact to a very small degree though... Thanks Tony, I have been mixing into a compressor then taking it off for mastering are you saying this is not what the the big wig's do? Nothing on the master buss? Thanks in advance. Naked 2 bus, I'm saying thats what the bigwigs i know do, get the best mix you can with a naked 2 bus, with sub mixes it allows you to treat stereo pairs of like instruments, getting them to row in the same direction, i even hold off on that until close to the end, single channel compression is essential/useful, but not if you get everything doing its own thing, musicality is paramount to processing, and it's easiest to achieve with sub mixes, if you're all done and you've maximized your DR and S/N ratio's, and you want to give a client a loud master? then smash away, but don't mis lead yourself by mixing into something thats multiplying every instance of compression AND NOISE floor you have. Remember that every serial addition of compression is a multiplication of the one preceding it, not addition, mixing into a 2 buss compressor is putting the cart before the horse IMV, build a song from the foundation up, 2 buss compression is icing usually applied by a ME... at the very end. Just my 2 cents, hope that helps.
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Post by stratboy on Nov 13, 2015 16:30:31 GMT -6
Great discussion, guys! Lots of ideas and techniques to think about and apply to my own productions. Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2015 22:27:16 GMT -6
As for the 2-buss processing, i guess it can depend heavily on the music style and the mastering engineer you are working with or maybe even are forced to work with.... I apply stereo spread, pultec or baxandall style, sometimes another EQ, and recently vari-mu (Klanghelm). In the very end i always have the Tischmeyer meter nowadays. Great tool. This said, style ist mostly electronic and there 2-buss processing can be an essential part of the music that you may not want to leave to the mastering guy. I heard from successful producers of all genres around here, who squeeze everything out of their mix including master compression and are very picky about even the smallest change the ME does or want to make. In fact they want to stay in command of their product and are control freaks in a good way. If you are very good at mixing, the ME might be only the guy who makes QC and signs for technically trouble free premaster quality, so everyone and the label is happy...
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Post by Gustav on Nov 16, 2015 16:48:14 GMT -6
I prefer two microphones and no EQ. Makes it harder for me to screw things up, and my mixes translate better (I grow tired of people talking about mix translation as just a monitoring issue).
Doing DIY PCBs, learning about these things, I have grown accustomed to requests for every feature under the sun. It doesn't hurt to add them - put the blend controls on a relay, voila, only in the signal path when its in.
The 1176 I did, I tried to add every feature imaginable. I decided I didn't want a single "what!, no x feature?" mail on it, and after posting it, the first response was "Why isn't the SC HP variable?". I can go "why would you need that, dude?", but I understand its fun, even needed to some, even if I dont find it essential for my own use.
Gustav
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