Interesting M7 Discussion...

Martin John Butler
RGO Senior Member

Singer/Songwriter/Producer/

Posts: 8,040

Interesting M7 Discussion... Sept 30, 2015 15:57:37 GMT -6 phrazemaster likes this

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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 30, 2015 15:57:37 GMT -6

I agree.

Around a year and a half back, I did a shootout between my UM-17B and the Lauten Audio Atlantis at Flux Studios in NYC. Fab Dupont was kind enough to let me have a little time there, thanks to kcathedog's introduction. I believe he was involved with the development of the Atlantis on some level, I'm not sure if it was advisory or design.

At first, the Lauten was impressive, a huge sound, like a neumann u47 FEt, or a Fat U87. Only after listening to the files for a while did I begin to notice it was a little congested, bloated and not very transparent, because this was more noticeable in the mix. My UM-17B seemed thinner in comparison, but once in the mix, to Jim's point, it killed the Atlantis.

I did that test with no effects whatsoever, just straight into his reconditioned Neve console.

Last Edit: Sept 30, 2015 15:58:31 GMT -6 by Martin John Butler

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2020digging
New Member

Posts: 7

Interesting M7 Discussion... Oct 9, 2015 4:43:43 GMT -6

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Post by 2020digging on Oct 9, 2015 4:43:43 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2015 10:43:55 GMT -6 Martin John Butler said:

https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/all-again-work-track

In the interest of furthering the discussion, and maybe getting some helpful insights, I'm posting a raw work track I just did with the Blackspade UM17 Blueline. Signal path is Dizengoff D4 > Warm Audio EQP-1A with just a small pinch of 60 hz boost > to UAD Apollo. I used just a small amount of Relab 480XL medium Room, and the smallest amount of UAD's EMT 140 together, and I put a de-esser in front of the reverb.

Please keep in mind, I'm kinda stepping out on a limb here, because this is a work track, needs bass, fiddle, accordion, harmony vocals, etc., and a mix. I might even redo the vocal and guitar once the other tracks are done. This was written after my father passed a few years back, I was trying to write about it, and out came a song about my mother's passing 35 years earlier. I guess you just hope to find the muse, but you can't place an order.

2020digging New Member Posts: 7	Interesting M7 Discussion... Oct 9, 2015 4:46:41 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by 2020digging on Oct 9, 2015 4:46:41 GMT -6 If your vocal is an example of the Dizengoff D4 in action then I like it very much. It sits well in the mix and has a presence no doubt.

Martin John Butler
RGO Senior Member

Singer/Songwriter/Producer/

Posts: 8,040

Interesting M7 Discussion... Oct 9, 2015 10:13:10 GMT -6

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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 9, 2015 10:13:10 GMT -6

What I like the most about the D4 is how the lowest level nuances are clean and clear. I sing differently with it. Because I trust it will capture the subtleties, it that helps me produce a better vocal take, one where I lay low when it feels right.

This song is almost done, some of the RGO gang helped out, and it's come along nicely. Just waiting for some pedal steel, and i'll post a mix of the finished track. I think it's a good example of how a mic with the M7 capsule works out in a mix.

Much as I'm really glad and grateful when guys post single voice files to show a mic's tone quality, I love a full track, where I can hear how it all blends in at the finish line.

Last Edit: Oct 9, 2015 10:14:06 GMT -6 by Martin John Butler

www.martinjohnbutler.com

phrazemaster
Junior Member

Posts: 81

Interesting M7 Discussion... Oct 10, 2015 10:44:52 GMT -6

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Post by phrazemaster on Oct 10, 2015 10:44:52 GMT -6

Oct 9, 2015 10:13:10 GMT -6 Martin John Butler said:

What I like the most about the D4 is how the lowest level nuances are clean and clear. I sing differently with it. Because I trust it will capture the subtleties, it that helps me produce a better vocal take, one where I lay low when it feels right.

I'm trying to decide if I wanna DIY a REDD47, or just cave in and get the D4. I'm sure there's advantages to both.

Martin John Butler
RGO Senior Member

Singer/Songwriter/Producer/

Posts: 8,040

Interesting M7 Discussion... Oct 10, 2015 11:55:19 GMT -6 phrazemaster likes this

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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 10, 2015 11:55:19 GMT -6

Not being a DIY guy, I can't speak to that, but in my contact with Matt at Dizengoff Audio, it was apparent he's a seriously experienced professional, one who would work at every detail to get it right.

I'm sure he tried all sorts of variations before settling on the particular components he chose for the D4. Basically, you can't go wrong, this thing just sounds great. It's not of those financial compromise, so "not quite as good as" type of pieces in my opinion.

Last Edit: Oct 10, 2015 11:58:17 GMT -6 by Martin John Butler

www.martinjohnbutler.com

watchtower
Senior Member

Posts: 413

Interesting M7 Discussion... Dec 8, 2015 9:38:28 GMT -6

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Post by watchtower on Dec 8, 2015 9:38:28 GMT -6

Sept 23, 2015 7:08:12 GMT -6 @smallbutfine said:

Hm. Just read thru some discussion in the PSW forum again, that was nothing less than hilarious and instantly knew why i have no good feelings when i read stuff like the above about M7 capsules...
I glimpsed into the discussion about tube graphs, where K.H. from my perspective reacted condescending, and most certainly not even read the article behind at first (while already have an opinion, of course), or has a problem with reading technical data maybe - the presented measurements were simply declared as "pseudo-science to push a product", the thread to be against the forum rules and case closed ...
I remember this was also discussed over at GDIY. I guess the most beef between him and the pro-audio DIY community is because of this kind of attitude and behaviour.
Max Kircher's tube replacement e.g. IS a viable and valid VF14 replacement. And his kits are outstanding. There will always be the one guy who says, that everything was so good in the old times, and nobody will ever be able to bring it back whatsoever...
And if a mic guru claims that measurements are not at all essential and it needs golden ears that everyone else don't have, then i have my opinion about this...
Be it when we talk tubes or capsules.
And i don't think that we suffer from positive expectation bias.
At least i think i am not. I guess i have more of a negative expectation bias, until i am really convinced the DIYer knows his stuff inside out....
Everytime i am presented samples of DIY stuff, i expect it to be *inferior* to available commercial products in either quality or price and it really has to convince me to be of good sonic character.
I know the effect of beeing proud of building something with love and thinking that it's great sounding. And i know the moment, when you take it to a comparison and it turned out to be like not remotely that good, as you thought a day before... especially from the days before everyone sold kits and pcbs that are mature and proofed to be high quality...
And DIY is not cheaper than a commercially manufactured product until the product is overpriced. How could it?
We heard what we heard. Recordings from Tony and winetree, recordings from JK where the mic was used etc.pp..
And yes, people shot out Max's kits with the blueline against real stuff and it holds up pretty well. Like alot of well designed kits that have their origin in the DIY community.

But there are simply people who would *never* admit this is even remotely possible.
And that those who don't hear the inferiority just have bad ears or bad taste or expectation bias. And use argumentation that is very close to esoterics.
And sorry, i don't buy *this*^.
No matter how highly people speak of the expertise, good service and integrity. Two pair of shoes...

Do you have the link to the tube graph posts?

www.SubterraneanWatchtower.com

Deleted
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Interesting M7 Discussion... Dec 13, 2015 10:22:06 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2015 10:22:06 GMT -6

Sorry for answering late.
I just tried to find the thread at PSW to get the link but without success, however it were comparison graphs from Max Kirchers dual tube VF14 replacement with the characteristics of the original VF14. Maybe could be found over at GDIY?

Interesting M7 Discussion...

Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 30, 2015 15:57:37 GMT -6

Post by 2020digging on Oct 9, 2015 4:43:43 GMT -6

Post by 2020digging on Oct 9, 2015 4:46:41 GMT -6

Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 9, 2015 10:13:10 GMT -6

Post by phrazemaster on Oct 10, 2015 10:44:52 GMT -6

Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 10, 2015 11:55:19 GMT -6

Post by watchtower on Dec 8, 2015 9:38:28 GMT -6

Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2015 10:22:06 GMT -6