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Post by phrazemaster on Sept 16, 2015 23:54:32 GMT -6
Not to cross-post; just thought to share a link to an interesting discussion I had with Klaus the last couple days on the State of M7s. Actually it's a depressing discussion, but I'll leave it at "interesting" in the title. repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,36846.0.html Mike |
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Post by svart on Sept 17, 2015 7:32:06 GMT -6
Link? I might be blind, but I don't see a link..
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Post by jimwilliams on Sept 17, 2015 9:27:38 GMT -6
Klaus is a bit wound up about M7 subjective quality. If I ever needed one I'd buy a used Geffel and remove it.
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Post by swurveman on Sept 17, 2015 10:14:22 GMT -6
"I don't think the Blue Line PVC capsules are "very good". They are project-studio quality."
How much do these Thiersh Blue Line capsules cost?
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 17, 2015 10:43:24 GMT -6
STW7 red line: 233,75 EUR, STW7 blue line: 261,25 EUR.
You can order STW7 by email or contact form.
Price apiece + 19% VAT for EU customers! All prices + postage.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 17, 2015 10:46:49 GMT -6
I thought it sounded good...but it didn't sound like I expect an M7 to sound.
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Post by svart on Sept 17, 2015 11:23:08 GMT -6
Heh. I think the blue-line subjectively sounds better than my REAL gefell M7 capsule. It has the same midrange character but a bit more top end. Otherwise I don't hear the "project studio" quality at all. My U47 clone is easily the best overall mic I own and the blue line capsule is a big reason why.
Sometimes i really really have to question the opinion of these internet "experts".
I expect that he has a grudge, rather than an actual technical opinion.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 17, 2015 11:26:48 GMT -6
Yeah, the top is excellent...
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Post by phrazemaster on Sept 17, 2015 16:46:08 GMT -6
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Post by phrazemaster on Sept 17, 2015 17:01:21 GMT -6
Well to me the most depressing part was that the K47/K49 capsules are not consistently excellent anymore - at least not up to his standards. Plus since Oliver passed, the planned test to recreate the M7 with the old illegal PVC powder apparently will not happen.
But we are still here. I'm sure the M7 is still very good, at least for the unwashed masses. Yet it's a shame that there is nothing that actually is an agreed-upon replacement that is universally hailed as excellent...
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Post by phrazemaster on Sept 18, 2015 9:50:53 GMT -6
Got a message from Max Kirchner at the other site; he is actively working on an M7 recreation! Here's a quote (moderators if this violates anything - sorry! Welcome to remove...) From Max: "Hey Mike, indeed I'm working on my take on the M7 capsule, on and off since nearly three years now. I'm experimenting with all kind of different PVC films in various thickness, often sourced from outside EU for regulation issues. I have come close to what i want it to sound, a pristine original Berlin M7 i use as a reference, but there's still a small difference, and i want to get it 100% right. Testing is done by myself and by three sound engineers who have a U47s with original M7 capsules. I recently found a Swiss manufacturer for specialty films and they will send me a couple of samples next week, I'll make an appointment with the research lab for the gold evaporation after that. I have a good feeling with the new film but we'll see." Thread page found here: groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=50694.580 |
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Post by svart on Sept 18, 2015 9:56:57 GMT -6
Didn't Klaus have his own capsules, you know, competitors to Theirsch's capsules?
When a vendor goes around telling folks how bad his competition is, or how he does everything better all the time, I find it really suspect.....
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 18, 2015 10:45:34 GMT -6
The other thing is how subtle and or subjective are these differences ? Throw different tubes in Max's mk-u47 ( rca gold pin vs Eriksson) and it sounds like a very different mike ? Are these differences actually better and worse ?
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Post by phrazemaster on Sept 18, 2015 19:20:07 GMT -6
Good points Kcat. I don't think Klaus sells capsules, but I hear you. I suppose he is used to dealing with the best of the best. I do trust his opinion, but as you say, "consider the source" and what that individual might have to gain in sharing an opinion. In this case, I do think Klaus is entirely honorable.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Sept 19, 2015 17:54:45 GMT -6
Didn't Klaus have his own capsules, you know, competitors to Theirsch's capsules? When a vendor goes around telling folks how bad his competition is, or how he does everything better all the time, I find it really suspect..... No he has never built his own capsule! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 2:06:56 GMT -6
Hrmpf.
A freshly manufactured PVC capsule maybe can not sound exactly like a decades old even NOS one. Due to aging effects of the material. PVC is a very stiff and prone to break thermoplast that always needed softener and stabilizer to be useful ... I don't think this is a huge secret.
But really, would you "pre-age" an M7 diaphragm? They were good when new.
This said, i read that the tuning of the M7 was/is not as critical as many think. Still, the process of attaching the diaphragm is a hit or miss thing. Times 2 because of both sides.
But each time i read "secret ingredient", "forbidden ingredient", "unobtanium ingredient", i always have to think of an engineer spitting in a melting pot with PVC...
I really guess PVC foil production is not rocket science or quantum physics. YMMV.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 2:27:29 GMT -6
Some of you guys *have* the blue line in your mics.
Do you think it degrades your mic to a project studio mic?
(assuming the capsule is the biggest part of the sound, beeing the transducer, and that you don't install it into a micky mouse mic)
Really? We heard samples e.g. of JKennedy's mic. I did not think it isn't suited for a major production. Actually nobody here did if i remember it correctly. Most were a bit jealous, right?
But if someone else is saying it's cheap sounding, it must be true, right?
Maybe we have a project studio taste. Sigh.
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Post by phrazemaster on Sept 20, 2015 18:29:04 GMT -6
I hear you Small,
I don't know what a real M7 sounds like. So it's hard for me to know. I just read someone's post recently wherein they built a C12 and threw a cheapie Chinese capsule into it. He was thrilled. Then he decided to put one of Tim Campbell's specials into it instead.
He said after he had Tim's capsule installed, the difference was so great he would have just thrown away the Chinese capsule if he didn't need it for testing purposes.
Maybe it's a matter of what you've experienced. I imagine the Blueline must be pretty good, or as one poster stated at GDIY he built an IOAUDIO MK-U47 and shot it out against some real U47's. The studio owners were so impressed they commissioned him to build some MK-U47s for him. He said the sound was indistinguishable.
So it's hard to know. Klaus might be right; I really don't know.
Best,
Mike
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Post by phrazemaster on Sept 20, 2015 18:30:07 GMT -6
One more point, but one that's a bit hard to admit. We all want the gear we build to be incredible. So there's that psychoacoustic thing going on too.
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Post by yotonic on Sept 20, 2015 21:48:00 GMT -6
And one of my favorite singers, Adele, made a fantastic sounding record with a cheap Rode mic. What is Klaus measuring? "Check 1, 2, Check 1, 2, this is an original M7 capsule with..."
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Post by phrazemaster on Sept 22, 2015 1:41:27 GMT -6
By the way, I'm just finishing a PTP U47 mic, with a FleA body, and a Thiersch Redline capsule. I'm still tweaking it, but the preliminary results are VERY GOOD!!! Using an EF12 tube and a Grosser PSU. Gotta love those original Tuchel connectors...wow, so cool looking, and so smooth!
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Post by jazznoise on Sept 23, 2015 3:45:12 GMT -6
It'd be nice of Klaus supplied a single measurement to back up his tirade. Considering he does capsule cleaning, surely he has the equipment for some simple testing?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2015 7:08:12 GMT -6
Hm. Just read thru some discussion in the PSW forum again, that was nothing less than hilarious and instantly knew why i have no good feelings when i read stuff like the above about M7 capsules...
I glimpsed into the discussion about tube graphs, where K.H. from my perspective reacted condescending, and most certainly not even read the article behind at first (while already have an opinion, of course), or has a problem with reading technical data maybe - the presented measurements were simply declared as "pseudo-science to push a product", the thread to be against the forum rules and case closed ...
I remember this was also discussed over at GDIY. I guess the most beef between him and the pro-audio DIY community is because of this kind of attitude and behaviour.
Max Kircher's tube replacement e.g. IS a viable and valid VF14 replacement. And his kits are outstanding. There will always be the one guy who says, that everything was so good in the old times, and nobody will ever be able to bring it back whatsoever...
And if a mic guru claims that measurements are not at all essential and it needs golden ears that everyone else don't have, then i have my opinion about this...
Be it when we talk tubes or capsules.
And i don't think that we suffer from positive expectation bias.
At least i think i am not. I guess i have more of a negative expectation bias, until i am really convinced the DIYer knows his stuff inside out....
Everytime i am presented samples of DIY stuff, i expect it to be *inferior* to available commercial products in either quality or price and it really has to convince me to be of good sonic character.
I know the effect of beeing proud of building something with love and thinking that it's great sounding. And i know the moment, when you take it to a comparison and it turned out to be like not remotely that good, as you thought a day before... especially from the days before everyone sold kits and pcbs that are mature and proofed to be high quality...
And DIY is not cheaper than a commercially manufactured product until the product is overpriced. How could it?
We heard what we heard. Recordings from Tony and winetree, recordings from JK where the mic was used etc.pp..
And yes, people shot out Max's kits with the blueline against real stuff and it holds up pretty well. Like alot of well designed kits that have their origin in the DIY community.
But there are simply people who would *never* admit this is even remotely possible.
And that those who don't hear the inferiority just have bad ears or bad taste or expectation bias. And use argumentation that is very close to esoterics.
And sorry, i don't buy *this*^.
No matter how highly people speak of the expertise, good service and integrity. Two pair of shoes...
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 23, 2015 8:13:03 GMT -6
I had the Blueline in my Blackspade UM17 installed by Shannon.
There's an extraordinary character to my mic, but I still find it a little light in the low end and shrill when I hit it hard. There are some mods that might alleviate this, but I'm on a fence about messing with it, because wha's good about it is very good. I had two vintage Neumann U-47 FET's, here on loan from a friend. When we tried them on vocals, my wife immediately said "give me my mic", meaning the Blackspade.
Yes, I know, they're not U-47's, but my point is I've been using a mic with an M7 for quite a while now, so I know it a little, and although the FET 47 isn't known as a vocal mic, it's a formidable piece for my Blackspade to kick the hell out of in a shootout.
At first, I thought I might agree with Klaus' opinion, but then I remembered I'd heard quite a few tracks done by Cowboycoalminer and Kcat's with their 47 with the Blueline on quite a few recordings. I feel that Cowboy's 47 is exactly the sound I was hoping to get from my Blackspade, so it leads me to believe it's partly the transformer and other parts causing me to wish for a little more from my mic.
I can almost identify the M7 when I hear it, there's a recognizable tone to it. Not that I could pick it out in a lineup of a bunch of mics, but when I hear Cowboy's tracks, it's definitely familiar.
I just got the Warm Audio EQP-1A, and a little boost around 60 hz with a wide bandwidth definitely helps a bit. Now, if I can only get it to take a pounding when I get loud. I use some mic technique, but there's always a point where standing back becomes too far back, and the mic tone/room sound shifts. Maybe it's just a Sta-Level I need, and I don't know it because I've never used one.
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 23, 2015 9:50:45 GMT -6
IMO Klaus has jumped the shark
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