ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107 
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Post by ericn on Sept 3, 2015 10:21:09 GMT -6
Thinking of getting rid of the Ramsa Panasonic boxes buying a Used Radar 24 and as time goes by upgrading it ! Il keep the PT software and maybe dump the Lynx AES card for MADI at both ends ( the simplicity of cabling) !
I want something more tape like, I want something that forces you to get away from " here's what it can sound like with a bit of auto tune"
I want to push real buttons!
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 3, 2015 10:26:16 GMT -6
i'm going to be needing 2 lynx AES16...E...(for Eric) cards soon, let me know when you want to off them bud.
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Post by tasteliketape on Sept 3, 2015 12:06:15 GMT -6
Been thinking the same thing for quite a while you great converters the rest is just a major bonus and these days the 24 ' s are a bargin
Plus the work flow makes you make some decisions now which to me.is a. Good thing
jmo
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Post by svart on Sept 3, 2015 12:19:22 GMT -6
Years ago I went with the Tascam MX2424 (their Radar-like converter/recorder solution) and I regretted it. Not only was the unit dull sounding, unlike the Radar, but the tape-like operation really really slowed me down beyond my expectations. I thought the process would "force me to make decisions", and it did, but it also painted me into corners 5 times a session. It's not a great thing to overhear the band whispering to each other about how they should have gone elsewhere after you've told them for the 4th time that session that you can't do some specific edit they want..
Tape is one thing, and people put up with it for the benefits, but a tape-like machine offers none of those benefits..
If you're recording other people and you have the mindset of "They're just going to have to play better", then you're going to have a bad time.
Take after take after take before they want to start refusing to pay for the time they are wasting and start grumbling about how other studios can edit them to sound good, etc.
And yes, you'll have that more often than not, and to stay in business you're going to have to compete.. Which means fancy editing you can't do on something like an old Radar.
I don't want to dash anybody's dreams, but I gotta mention my experience. Reality smacked me in the face and I sold the Tascam junk for pennies on the dollar after it kept locking up on every session..
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Post by tasteliketape on Sept 3, 2015 12:26:32 GMT -6
Very good point Svart i hadn't looked at it that way thanks great point
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Post by svart on Sept 3, 2015 12:32:00 GMT -6
Very good point Svart i hadn't looked at it that way thanks great point No problem. The Radar devices sound wonderful, you just have to be aware of the limitations of the older ones that only acted like tape machines. I do believe the newer ones incorporate a DAW or something in them now, so it's probably not a problem at all now. |
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Post by Calvin on Sept 3, 2015 12:44:47 GMT -6
You can always use your Radar as a front end for your DAW, which is what I do. I'm without a console right now, so that's really my only option. But it's a great option. Fantastic converters. Only drawback, really, is the 48k limit for me since I have older converter cards in them. If I load up with the more recent Nyquist or SuperNyquist cards, that limitation goes away. I'd seriously love to get into the new Radar Studio which has supercharged DAW capabilities built in. That's my ultimate goal. Gonna refurbish a console and hook up a Radar Studio. Best of every world.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
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Post by ericn on Sept 3, 2015 17:52:35 GMT -6
Years ago I went with the Tascam MX2424 (their Radar-like converter/recorder solution) and I regretted it. Not only was the unit dull sounding, unlike the Radar, but the tape-like operation really really slowed me down beyond my expectations. I thought the process would "force me to make decisions", and it did, but it also painted me into corners 5 times a session. It's not a great thing to overhear the band whispering to each other about how they should have gone elsewhere after you've told them for the 4th time that session that you can't do some specific edit they want.. Tape is one thing, and people put up with it for the benefits, but a tape-like machine offers none of those benefits.. If you're recording other people and you have the mindset of "They're just going to have to play better", then you're going to have a bad time. Take after take after take before they want to start refusing to pay for the time they are wasting and start grumbling about how other studios can edit them to sound good, etc. And yes, you'll have that more often than not, and to stay in business you're going to have to compete.. Which means fancy editing you can't do on something like an old Radar. I don't want to dash anybody's dreams, but I gotta mention my experience. Reality smacked me in the face and I sold the Tascam junk for pennies on the dollar after it kept locking up on every session.. I respect your opinion, but a couple of contrary points 1 as pointed out by others the ability to edit and work in a typical modern work flow is there just add Digital Card as I mentioned, moving files could be done much faster via Ethernet . 2 Unlike many I get to be selective with my clients and projects, I would rather work with those WHO WANT TO GET IT RIGHT IN THE PERFORMANCE . 3. You fake to realize something, every RE and Producers biggest comparison is DIY, the client seeing everything being done on a computer on the Audio equivalent to Word, makes everybody think if they have the same stuff they can do it ! 4 In B school we were taught to succeed you need to find a Niche and distinguish your self from others. RADAR is that niche and everybody wants a tape like digital experience, that's how IZ has always presented RADAR! |
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Post by svart on Sept 3, 2015 20:32:38 GMT -6
Years ago I went with the Tascam MX2424 (their Radar-like converter/recorder solution) and I regretted it. Not only was the unit dull sounding, unlike the Radar, but the tape-like operation really really slowed me down beyond my expectations. I thought the process would "force me to make decisions", and it did, but it also painted me into corners 5 times a session. It's not a great thing to overhear the band whispering to each other about how they should have gone elsewhere after you've told them for the 4th time that session that you can't do some specific edit they want.. Tape is one thing, and people put up with it for the benefits, but a tape-like machine offers none of those benefits.. If you're recording other people and you have the mindset of "They're just going to have to play better", then you're going to have a bad time. Take after take after take before they want to start refusing to pay for the time they are wasting and start grumbling about how other studios can edit them to sound good, etc. And yes, you'll have that more often than not, and to stay in business you're going to have to compete.. Which means fancy editing you can't do on something like an old Radar. I don't want to dash anybody's dreams, but I gotta mention my experience. Reality smacked me in the face and I sold the Tascam junk for pennies on the dollar after it kept locking up on every session.. I respect your opinion, but a couple of contrary points 1 as pointed out by others the ability to edit and work in a typical modern work flow is there just add Digital Card as I mentioned, moving files could be done much faster via Ethernet . 2 Unlike many I get to be selective with my clients and projects, I would rather work with those WHO WANT TO GET IT RIGHT IN THE PERFORMANCE . 3. You fake to realize something, every RE and Producers biggest comparison is DIY, the client seeing everything being done on a computer on the Audio equivalent to Word, makes everybody think if they have the same stuff they can do it ! 4 In B school we were taught to succeed you need to find a Niche and distinguish your self from others. RADAR is that niche and everybody wants a tape like digital experience, that's how IZ has always presented RADAR! 1. My MX2424 would transfer over ethernet too.. At high samplerates it would take forever! I mean 2-3 hours to transfer 24 tracks for one song. Hopefully radar isn't like that. 2. If you can just be selective, that's great. It's a luxury that anyone trying to make it in the business, at least around here, won't get. Most people walk into the studio expecting to do one or two whole takes but most are in the double digit numbers before they get exasperated enough to just edit pieces of takes together. You can call it studio jitters, lack of practice, whatever, the result is the same.. Even then, after maybe 6 takes the musicians lose the will to go on and takes start to suffer for the rest of the session that day.. Nailing punches the old school tape way is hard even for pros and most people who come to small studios aren't pros.. 3. Too late! Everyone already believes they can do it. The only reason they go to studios anymore is simply because of lack of will, or some kind of time limit. Most of my customers choose not to record themselves because they choose to use the time to write, but most of them are trying to learn things over my shoulder.. And I'd say a good 40% of them have ended up recording themselves later on because I make it look easy. Every other band I talk to records themselves and their friends these days, so new customers are strictly by hyped word of mouth from my current customers. Almost all of my work this last year was repeat customers. I couldn't even get a new band to come, they all already record themselves. 4. I'll have to disagree here. They don't want the tape "experience". They want the tape "sound". Nobody wants the hardships that come with tape, they just want the crunchy, compressed, euphonic sound of tape. My customers didn't come to me because of gimmicks and niches, they came because I give proven results that compare well to their favorite/idol bands, for a reasonable price, in a reasonable time frame. I've only had one customer ask about tape, and they wanted to transfer drum stems to a lo-fi tape recorder and back. Once they heard it, they realized their mistake and we continued as normal. Their mistake being that they believed that the sound of modern recordings come from transferring digital to tape and back. Apparently they read it on a big audio forum with a purple background.. I guess if working with those limits floats your boat, more power to you. I couldn't stand it! |
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Post by popmann on Sept 3, 2015 20:52:28 GMT -6
I don't understand the appeal of "radar running protools".
I completely get the desire of a RADAR (or similar unit) with a desk and full analog studio. But, the idea of shoehorning PRoTools into the box with whatever emulation and little touchscreen sounds to me like the worst of both platforms.
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Post by svart on Sept 3, 2015 21:16:35 GMT -6
I don't understand the appeal of "radar running protools". I completely get the desire of a RADAR (or similar unit) with a desk and full analog studio. But, the idea of shoehorning PRoTools into the box with whatever emulation and little touchscreen sounds to me like the worst of both platforms. At one point the converters in the Radar units were the cream of the crop. People would track on there and dump the files into pofools, or otherwise just use the radar for the converters only. I guess IZ or whomever owned it at the time decided to just give folks what they were doing already. I mean, hardly anybody used it like a tape deck anyway once pofools became big time. |
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Post by winetree on Sept 3, 2015 22:18:57 GMT -6
I'm an old analog guy with old school principals. Analog room, Harrison Console, Otari tape machines and extensive analog outboard and mics.
I bought a Radar V (24/96 converters). Tape has gotten expensive for the 2" Otari 24 track.
It gives me the best of both worlds, I can record Analog or digital, transfer either way, and take the hard drive into the Pootools room, when needed.
Out of all the digital recorders the radar is the best I have found and allows me to work in my old school manner.
I have the luxury of working with professional musicians that understand it's "in the performance" and "do it till it's right".
The wannabes need to learn if they don't want to practice or have the talent to play it right, they shouldn't be in the business. At some point they are gonna have to play it live.
It's too bad that today's Audio Engineers have to create the performance, when our job was just to capture it.
.
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Post by keymod on Sept 4, 2015 3:46:15 GMT -6
I don't know, I got pretty good at doing edits on my Radar 24. What can't you do? It can cut/copy/paste/shift/delete/loop/replace.........And it's so easy to do using the Session Controller. I mean, what else is necessary in music? I can see perhaps needing more in-depth capabilities if one is doing movie sound tracks, etc.. but , come on, if you can't fix it on a Radar, it's not worth a poopy anyway.
The only thing I wish IZ would do is to incorporate the use of plugins directly within the Radar software, rather than needing to transfer to a different DAW ( if one wants/needs plugins ). Radar Studio is a step in the right direction as it contains Protools, Harrison Mixbus and/or any DAW of your choice that works on a windows-type platform. And these DAWs can be accessed at the push of a button, so it cuts down on transfer time.
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Post by svart on Sept 4, 2015 7:31:35 GMT -6
I don't know, I got pretty good at doing edits on my Radar 24. What can't you do? It can cut/copy/paste/shift/delete/loop/replace.........And it's so easy to do using the Session Controller. I mean, what else is necessary in music? I can see perhaps needing more in-depth capabilities if one is doing movie sound tracks, etc.. but , come on, if you can't fix it on a Radar, it's not worth a poopy anyway. The only thing I wish IZ would do is to incorporate the use of plugins directly within the Radar software, rather than needing to transfer to a different DAW ( if one wants/needs plugins ). Radar Studio is a step in the right direction as it contains Protools, Harrison Mixbus and/or any DAW of your choice that works on a windows-type platform. And these DAWs can be accessed at the push of a button, so it cuts down on transfer time. Hey, this was 10+ years ago, so i don't remember all the problems I had. All I know is that going back to DAW was like going home, and my work speed increased dramatically. I mean, OP mentioned that he was thinking about this move, and folks chimed in with their thoughts. I did too. Nobody needs to defend his decision against me, it's his money to do what he likes and I'm simply just giving him a broader view. It sounds like he's pretty dead set on going this route anyway. I just thought he should be aware of the differences, and that they can be negative. I thought that limitations would be negated by having a more simplistic approach to recording. I had that dreamy expectation of greatness from changing everything, but I'm afraid it was just GAS, and being the stubborn fool I am sometimes, It took me a while to come to terms with it and I lost thousands selling that MX2424 after a year and a half. I dunno, perhaps if I was able to afford a Radar back then, instead of just the MX2424, then I would have had a different experience. |
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Post by jimwilliams on Sept 4, 2015 9:31:57 GMT -6
I checked out the Tascam HDR when it came out. It sounded bad. I tested it with the AP. It tested bad. Modified the ADC and DAC cards: it sounded bad. Even a digital transfer sounded bad.
My friend bought a new Nyquist Radar 96. We ran that against my modified Alesis HD24XR. The Radar was very noisy in the control room, it had me thinking "we need a machine room for this thing". The HD24XR was silent.
To compare we tracked drums using a set of Audio Upgrades High Speed mic preamps and a several runs of Kimber AGSS silver cable. We used several modifed AKG 460 and 414 mics.
The Radar sounded good with very creamy mids. The Alesis had much better low end depth (20hz stuff) and top end details. Both use the same ADC chip, an AKM5396. Radar used 5532 opamps, I had Linear Tech opamps loaded in the Alesis. Barry at IZ could not explain the low end differences as Radar rolls off pretty low and uses no digital high pass filters.
Radar is a system, Alesis is a simple recorder. I found that fit my needs better here in an all analog studio. My editing is "play it again, Sam".
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
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Post by ericn on Sept 4, 2015 17:41:59 GMT -6
I respect your opinion, but a couple of contrary points 1 as pointed out by others the ability to edit and work in a typical modern work flow is there just add Digital Card as I mentioned, moving files could be done much faster via Ethernet . 2 Unlike many I get to be selective with my clients and projects, I would rather work with those WHO WANT TO GET IT RIGHT IN THE PERFORMANCE . 3. You fake to realize something, every RE and Producers biggest comparison is DIY, the client seeing everything being done on a computer on the Audio equivalent to Word, makes everybody think if they have the same stuff they can do it ! 4 In B school we were taught to succeed you need to find a Niche and distinguish your self from others. RADAR is that niche and everybody wants a tape like digital experience, that's how IZ has always presented RADAR! 1. My MX2424 would transfer over ethernet too.. At high samplerates it would take forever! I mean 2-3 hours to transfer 24 tracks for one song. Hopefully radar isn't like that. 2. If you can just be selective, that's great. It's a luxury that anyone trying to make it in the business, at least around here, won't get. Most people walk into the studio expecting to do one or two whole takes but most are in the double digit numbers before they get exasperated enough to just edit pieces of takes together. You can call it studio jitters, lack of practice, whatever, the result is the same.. Even then, after maybe 6 takes the musicians lose the will to go on and takes start to suffer for the rest of the session that day.. Nailing punches the old school tape way is hard even for pros and most people who come to small studios aren't pros.. 3. Too late! Everyone already believes they can do it. The only reason they go to studios anymore is simply because of lack of will, or some kind of time limit. Most of my customers choose not to record themselves because they choose to use the time to write, but most of them are trying to learn things over my shoulder.. And I'd say a good 40% of them have ended up recording themselves later on because I make it look easy. Every other band I talk to records themselves and their friends these days, so new customers are strictly by hyped word of mouth from my current customers. Almost all of my work this last year was repeat customers. I couldn't even get a new band to come, they all already record themselves. 4. I'll have to disagree here. They don't want the tape "experience". They want the tape "sound". Nobody wants the hardships that come with tape, they just want the crunchy, compressed, euphonic sound of tape. My customers didn't come to me because of gimmicks and niches, they came because I give proven results that compare well to their favorite/idol bands, for a reasonable price, in a reasonable time frame. I've only had one customer ask about tape, and they wanted to transfer drum stems to a lo-fi tape recorder and back. Once they heard it, they realized their mistake and we continued as normal. Their mistake being that they believed that the sound of modern recordings come from transferring digital to tape and back. Apparently they read it on a big audio forum with a purple background.. I guess if working with those limits floats your boat, more power to you. I couldn't stand it! [br Respectfully Your last point was your best, Comparing your time with a Tascam to a Radar is like saying I drove a Jaguar F type and dint like it there for a Louts sucks because they are both Britisjh cars Honestly as somebody who is makeing a product I would think you would know better! As I have been trying to set up gear demos around here I am noticing a couple points Mid level rooms are very busy People don't want the sound of tape they want the tape experience, they don't know what tape sounds like , they can't afford Tape! They want tape like ! RADAR unlike a JW modded Alesis is a known product, has a buzz and a Draw for the type of client I want at this point and because of its Dual use has a draw for young AEs and producers if I ever to choose to set up a room. From my days as Gear pimp I have learned and always tried to address 2 concepts when I respond to threads The needs of the masses and the needs of the client. A Award winning composer told me years ago he always came to me because I was the only one who understood his needs , including his good friend my boss who was the one won who got credit for the sale. Honestly I'm doing it I'm going to look for Ideally a 24 Adrenile with AES or MADI but if I can't find one I'll take a Generic 24 put in an AES or MADI then upgrade the Frame/ Board hey I know one guy who already wants to rent ! |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
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Post by ericn on Sept 4, 2015 17:43:39 GMT -6
Thanks guys ! This is the thing the only reason I hear about people dumping the old machines is SCSI Drives!
Can't wait to join the club!
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Post by spock on Sept 7, 2015 18:13:24 GMT -6
Thanks guys ! This is the thing the only reason I hear about people dumping the old machines is SCSI Drives! Can't wait to join the club! Ericn, you will love the RADAR, go studio if you can. |
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Post by spock on Sept 7, 2015 18:21:18 GMT -6
I don't understand the appeal of "radar running protools". I completely get the desire of a RADAR (or similar unit) with a desk and full analog studio. But, the idea of shoehorning PRoTools into the box with whatever emulation and little touchscreen sounds to me like the worst of both platforms. If you've ever worked on the earlier RADAR systems, and needed to move into a DAW environment of your choice... You'd have to transfer the files over to another machine running the DAW and come back via ADAT I/O or other to make use of the wonderful sound RADAR converters. The RADAR studio skips this and allows you to simply reboot in workstation mode i.e. DAW of your choice, not only PT, and continue to use RADAR's beautiful hardware. The touch screen is great if you're doing remote work, otherwise it runs along side your HD LED monitors via HDMI; it can even be an extended desktop. |
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