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Post by M57 on Jul 8, 2015 5:04:43 GMT -6
..or are they already?
I was reading a recent thread about the Harrison Mixbus and got to thinking that it's just a matter of the depth of the algorithms and the power of the processors before digital catches up with our ears. For most people, it's already there. But then most people couldn't tell the difference between a Cabernet Sauvignon and a Merlot ..it's just red wine.
Thought experiment: Mix a tune through entirely analog equipment, then mix the same tune itb using the highest quality of DAWs/plugs, etc. that emulate the analog equipment - whatever it may be - tape saturation, etc.. Could you tell the difference? ..or more importantly, could you tell which is which?
For those who intimately know the sound of specific pieces of analog gear, which is most of you who participate in these forums, I'm guessing the answer is yes, but it's gotta be close. And it's just a matter of time before D can for all intents and (also intensive;) purposes be A, right?
Might as well add a poll to the thread. Assume it's a simple, somewhat sparse recording with light instrumentation - just bass, drums, guitar, and a vocal. Desk, eq, compression/limiting and verbs of your choice, preferably with just a bit of color/mojo, etc. - and you're A/Bing at the 2-buss.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 8, 2015 7:56:37 GMT -6
To be clear, is the question that if the same song is mixed analog and in the box, by someone else, could you tell which was which? If that's the case, I'm saying no. I probably couldn't pick which was ITB and which was Analog.
That said, if I'm sitting in front of a piece of hardware and have the same plugin up, and A/B them, I don't think they sound the same. Does it matter though? That's the real question, right? The plugin might sound better on one track and the hardware better on another track. Just like a Warm WA76 isn't going to sound exactly like a Purple MC77 or a UA1176. I think we need to look at plugins just as a different flavor, not a bad flavor.
I'm one of the younger guys here (I think, anyway) and have probably spent as much time working digitally ITB as I have with analog gear. I feel like I can get good results on both platforms, but my ITB and Analog mixes sound vastly different from each other. Which sounds better is debatable though. I seem to get a bit more clarity and tightness from digital and a sound a bit fatter with more depth from analog. Which one sounds better would be in the ear of the beholder though.
The ease of recall and being able to work anywhere vs. the ease of mixing with knobs and (arguably) better sound, both have their merits and sometimes leave me torn. For now, I'm sticking with my knobs and sound (with some plugins spread around too).
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Post by Ward on Jul 8, 2015 8:14:16 GMT -6
If you've been listening to Contemporary Christian Worship music lately, you'll probably have a HARD TIME telling the difference between an A and a D chord!
oh wait...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2015 8:32:41 GMT -6
Well, after we have brought our smaller console back to life, we decided to restore and rebuild our larger modular console for mixing OTB now.
This said, i just found out how to implement control surface steering correctly, and with the release of Mixbus 3 things should even get easier.
I highly doubt i rate my analog console setup *better* than very good digital emulation like Mixbus.
Most probably it will depend more on the project and sound i want to achieve.
So far we have a nice slightly cloudy, rock style type entry-level console with chip pres (Soundtracs Topaz) and will restore a 4 x transistor frontend console right now that has an excellent deep mids and bass behaviour (reggae guys seems to like it, it's a Soundtracs Megas Mix with the Deluxe channels, pres are same as in the Quartz, Jade and Inline series).
If i get Mixbus working with the 24-channel flying faders and channels strip function of my controller, it will equal or surpass (sonically!) the other options. Other sound flavour. Great all-around expensive sound, not dark or cloudy, but classy with nice top end. Great for pop.
Different flavours but digital not beeing inferior.
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Post by jimwilliams on Jul 8, 2015 8:49:23 GMT -6
This question was around 20 years ago. The digital mix platform has improved, but so has the analog platform.
I once thought by now they would be closer, but that has not happened yet and may not in my lifetime.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 8, 2015 8:58:09 GMT -6
To be clear, is the question that if the same song is mixed analog and in the box, by someone else, could you tell which was which? If that's the case, I'm saying no. I probably couldn't pick which was ITB and which was Analog.
That said, if I'm sitting in front of a piece of hardware and have the same plugin up, and A/B them, I don't think they sound the same. Does it matter though? That's the real question, right? The plugin might sound better on one track and the hardware better on another track. Just like a Warm WA76 isn't going to sound exactly like a Purple MC77 or a UA1176. I think we need to look at plugins just as a different flavor, not a bad flavor. I'm one of the younger guys here (I think, anyway) and have probably spent as much time working digitally ITB as I have with analog gear. I feel like I can get good results on both platforms, but my ITB and Analog mixes sound vastly different from each other. Which sounds better is debatable though. I seem to get a bit more clarity and tightness from digital and a sound a bit fatter with more depth from analog. Which one sounds better would be in the ear of the beholder though. The ease of recall and being able to work anywhere vs. the ease of mixing with knobs and (arguably) better sound, both have their merits and sometimes leave me torn. For now, I'm sticking with my knobs and sound (with some plugins spread around too). I think if you post a pair of mixes, one ITB, one OTB, I could probably tell you which is which...?  maybe haha, but i'd also reserve the right to tell you(just like Slates supremely fried/petrified turd ITB/OTB summing joke comparison) that the mix is said "turd", and it would make exactly 0 diff in any format haha. That said, I have friends that are so ridiculously talented at mixing, and can hear and manipulate such important minutiae, that they make me feel totally inept! My personal best effort OTB wouldn't stand a chance against them ITB, that said, their best effort ITB wouldn't stand a chance against themselves OTB on some great gear, i've seen this movie a dozen times at least, the OTB mix will have more depth, solidity, be wider, more defined, with better image dynamics(most important imo) than an ITB mix, if and only if it's done with great gear on the level of all the emulations that are ITB, IE neve, pultec, urie etc, your not going to get it with an Alesis 3630 comp and a mackie mixer. |
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Post by M57 on Jul 8, 2015 9:10:52 GMT -6
To be clear, is the question that if the same song is mixed analog and in the box, by someone else, could you tell which was which? If that's the case, I'm saying no. I probably couldn't pick which was ITB and which was Analog. I'm really talking about 'emulating' the RL Analog stuff. It's not meant to be a question about which is better. The question is more about - can the D emulate the A so well that you can't tell which is which? ..i.e. for all intents and purposes.. perfectly? I guess I could have been more clear about that I was expecting more "Probablys" |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 8, 2015 9:14:03 GMT -6
I might also add that the majority of guys with ample analog OTB setups, will not partake in this kind of thread, they know the "beat your head against the wall" nature of them and steer clear, i on the other hand am a glutton for punishment lol. Get your ass in a REAL DEAL STUDIO and spend a bit of time with a monster engineer, and then tell me how great your daw is? It's a more significant diff than torturing George vs spending a night with a super hottie where you ACTUALLY get to use all of your senses, BOTH of your hands... amongst other things  |
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Post by M57 on Jul 8, 2015 9:46:00 GMT -6
I might also add that the majority of guys with ample analog OTB setups, will not partake in this kind of thread, they know the "beat your head against the wall" nature of them and steer clear, i on the other hand am a glutton for punishment lol. Get your ass in a REAL DEAL STUDIO and spend a bit of time with a monster engineer, and then tell me how great your daw is? It's a more significant diff than torturing George vs spending a night with a super hottie where you ACTUALLY get to use all of your senses, BOTH of your hands... amongst other things Cool! So your point is that it might not so much be about the emulation as it is about the physical work-flow related experience, which is kind of why I referenced the Mixbus system. If you had all the physical buttons and knobs and faders such that it was the same tactile experience - then it comes down to the quality of the emulation, which I'm guessing has got to be approaching 'indistiquishable.' But I get it - there's nothing like sitting behind a desk, and ultimately that influences the final product. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2015 11:49:45 GMT -6
For Nebula i am pretty sure if you run program material thru an analog mojo box or thru a well made Nebula program that is done by sampling thru the same converters, the result will be indistinguishable while ABX listening even with top monitoring and golden ears. Due to the brute force approach that is done to exactly achieve this.
Downside is the usability and workflow that doesn't come close to the analog at all.
Mixbus comes close to working OTB also from the workflow aspect. But for obvious financial reasons (read my signature) i can not ensure you it sounds exactly like the real deal, but i started with analog mixing, and so far, this is the platform that proves how close you can get generally to analog mixing as of today. For me, it's pretty exactly the type of joy i have mixing OTB. Several people who have a history of working with analog mixing and have a preference for it normally claim the same.
I don't miss any of the points that Tony mentioned om the pro side for analog i.e. width, definition, stereo image and i am also pretty happy with how it handles transients.
I would really like to see more real competition in this field. But right now - there isn't any that could convince me.
This said, i use other mojo makers in the digital world. And no, they almost never sound indistinguishable from analog. I wished i could come to another conclusion.
They are still usable without any doubt.
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Post by joseph on Jul 8, 2015 12:27:15 GMT -6
Depends how you frame the question.
For anyone tracking real musicians in real rooms, there will be an analog front end that no plugin can replace. You can't physically track pre-AD with plugin signal processing, and you can't with a single cheap microphone capsule and some software fake several real mics' on axis or off axis frequency and transient responses through entire range of distances and real room resonances, and distortion characteristics (or put differently, each microphone's usability through a range of real acoustic applications).
At a certain point, it's just easier and better to use the real thing.
You also can't play to a room with an amp sim.
That said, plugins are nice for effects, transparent eq cuts and limiting. The most impressive I've used are Exponential Audio PhoenixVerb and Excalibur, Relab LX480, DMG Equilibrium and Essence, and TDR Kotelnikov. I also think u-he Satin does a damn good simulation of 15ips tape delay, per track asperity and softening of highs, is fully tweakable, and I doubt any hardware box other than a few real tape machines could come close, given the complex variables involved.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 8, 2015 14:11:43 GMT -6
Since my latest ITB experince I say its not a matter of sound qualty anymore.
Slightliy diffrent skills are nedded mixing ITB.
The rest is a question of workflow.
It is a love and hate realtionship to me.
I love to touch real knobs, but I also love total recall.
….
Do you love appels or ornages… pick one….
@smallbutfine
If you can run AU plugs try for the mojo part Airwindows.
His channel 4 sounds very close to my 1073 in Neve setting.
We are getting closer with every year IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2015 14:43:03 GMT -6
I am on PC, Win8.1 and Linux, only....
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 8, 2015 15:55:48 GMT -6
I am on PC, Win8.1 and Linux, only.... Mixbus is not running on Linux? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2015 16:35:54 GMT -6
It does, sure!
Do AU plugins run under linux? Only knew LADSPA plugs...
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Post by RicFoxx on Jul 8, 2015 18:40:30 GMT -6
If tracks are recorded well and I use HW inserts or print than I could care less whether I run it out of the box or not (is that really in the box.) With that being said I am trying out a Phoenix Nicerizer and I also have an Oram Series 8T but I think anyone in their right mind would stay ITB if it is the same. Honestly we could just sell all of our gear and have complete flexibility.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 9, 2015 18:04:23 GMT -6
If tracks are recorded well and I use HW inserts or print than I could care less whether I run it out of the box or not (is that really in the box.) With that being said I am trying out a Phoenix Nicerizer and I also have an Oram Series 8T but I think anyone in their right mind would stay ITB if it is the same. Honestly we could just sell all of our gear and have complete flexibility. I think a nice forntend helps a lot if you know your are going to do it ITB. Some plug-ins I wont trade for anything, becasue they support the sound. I use them very often ITB, or hybrid, and in my opinion they are very good. PSP Oldtimer. Overloud Breverb. UAD 1176 bundle Waves SSL G Strip Antares Tube - I try to tell myself, very often, that it is not true- but this thing sounds just great. Airwindows Channel 4 (For all virteual instruments who have not seen the 1073) Just to name few which support creativity in mixing. I think its not black or white. If you keep an open ear, you cand find plug ins which support your work. |
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Post by ericn on Jul 9, 2015 18:42:52 GMT -6
I don't think digital sounds bad, I think trying to emulate analog in a digital system will always fall short. The best digital has to offer is when we harness the powers of what digital can do.
Companies like SSL Harrison, Sonox, Masey have created great digital products by not trying to emulate analog pieces! Once we get passed recreating what we have in the analog world we might be surprised!
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 9, 2015 19:41:12 GMT -6
I don't think digital sounds bad, I think trying to emulate analog in a digital system will always fall short. The best digital has to offer is when we harness the powers of what digital can do. Companies like SSL Harrison, Sonox, Masey have created great digital products by not trying to emulate analog pieces! Once we get passed recreating what we have in the analog world we might be surprised! I said this years ago on GS. The Inflator.... yupp he still sounds great. The PsP Oldtimer is an example of what happens if experienced MEs work together with developpers. Or take Chris at Airwindows, he only takes parts of what happens in gear, and he creats around this something new. Airwindows plug ins show, to me, that digital can sound good. With the years I think that the OTB vs ITB discussion is not a big help. I remember that it seeked out all my courage the day I was forced to DI myself. Can we fly to the moon on the back of a bumblebee? |
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Post by Guitar on Jul 11, 2015 18:02:59 GMT -6
I think this is my all time favorite audio debate. There seems to be no clear winner, and it's 50/50 at best, so pick your poison.
My current mental abstraction is digital is a Yamaha DX7 and analog is a Mini Moog. Both beautiful and classic sounds, but different in terms of clarity, and weight. Or the other classic analogy, CD vs vinyl 12" records.
I think the most obvious solution is just to maximize yourself on both ends, unless you have a clear or militant preference.
Me personally, I seem to flip-flop between the two constantly, and most often employ both. The best is both worlds, I think. Beyond that it's sort of a Budweiser vs Miller personal pref., with all kinds of grey area.
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maybe haha, but i'd also reserve the right to tell you(just like Slates supremely fried/petrified turd ITB/OTB summing joke comparison) that the mix is said "turd", and it would make exactly 0 diff in any format haha. 
