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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 8, 2013 11:30:52 GMT -6
Pardon my ignorance, but in my endless quest of improving my electronics, I've often heard people mention upgrading the caps. What do they do, how do you determine quality and do they make a difference sonically? I ain't afraid to say I'm dumb.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2013 11:52:29 GMT -6
I've often heard people mention upgrading the caps. What do they do, how do you determine quality and do they make a difference sonically? I hate to turn this into an ad, but if you have questions like this you really should have my Audio Expert book. This is a pretty deep subject, so I'll hit only the high points: Capacitors serve a number of purposes in electronic gear, from determining the frequency of an EQ, to filtering hum out of the AC mains in a power supply. The main point here is to distinguish caps that are in the signal path, versus caps that are not in the signal path. There are many types of caps - Mylar, disk ceramic, electrolytic, polystyrene - and each is better for some purposes than others. Ceramic caps are excellent for preventing ultrasonic oscillation as part of a power supply, but you'd never pass audio through one because they add distortion. Polystyrene caps have low distortion, but they're made from metal strips that are rolled up to be smaller, which adds a series inductance to their capacitance. And so forth. Edit: I'll add that "upgrading" capacitors is rarely useful or needed, though electrolytic caps do deteriorate after 30 or 40 years and so might need replacing. --Ethan
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 8, 2013 12:25:18 GMT -6
Thanks, Ethan. I consider my electronics knowledge to be on a "need to know" basis. Sounds like upgrading caps would not be something I need to know.
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Post by jazznoise on Sept 8, 2013 12:27:52 GMT -6
They're essentially a differentiator. If you put DC across it you get 0 because the difference between any 2 instances between a DC signal is 0. At higher frequencies you get a bigger and bigger voltage (a lower resistance, in other words) as we see the rate of change increasing. This means you can make a circuit sensitive to frequency and using resistors you can generate very specific time constants for filters, oscillators, envelope followers and more.
However as Ethan's clearly highlighted, they're flawed and depending on the job some are built better than others. In general distortion increases with frequency but using the right caps you're talking of a difference between 0.001% and 0.0009%. In general the distortion is below the noise floor, but as caps go bad they can start doing weird stuff.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 8, 2013 12:32:28 GMT -6
Maybe my question should have been what electronics are replaceable in my Miktek CV4 to upgrade the sound?
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 8, 2013 12:49:20 GMT -6
It's no mistake that the most hi fi sounding gear use great electronics. capacitor upgrades are sometimes very useful, and the differences can certainly be heard, especially if you can mod an electrolytic capacitor out of the signal path, if not, a higher quality, quieter operating electrolytic like an elna silmic ll are nice, Electrons make mechanical vibration/noise as they do there work, the better caps(no matter their purpose) damp, and don't allow this vibro/noise through as much. I'm no expert on electronics, but i've heard the differences caps can make with my own ears, i'm a diy madman, and i've subbed all kinds of components for so called better components, some make diffs, some don't, but generally, better electronics make better sounding audio gear, especially from a distortion/noise perspective, color pieces are a whole different thing, but even then, most of those sought after pieces have quality parts in at least part of the circuit.
BTW, a blind A/B test on the net for something like this is basically useless IMO, it's about familiarity with a piece, and being able to recognize a change for the better or worse. listening to a stock Soundcraft delta 200 input strip, compared to a Jim Williams modded strip(mostly electro cap elimination/opamp upgrade, and optimizing), is the difference between listening to an AM radio, and going to a Symphony!
There are definitely better guys to speak of this than me, J Steiger, J Williams , Svart?
Hope this helps a little T
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 8, 2013 12:56:49 GMT -6
Maybe my question should have been what electronics are replaceable in my Miktek CV4 to upgrade the sound? a lot of very successful mic mods, eliminate or upgrade capacitors in the mic circuit, the apex 460 is a popular example of this, it makes that mic a very useful piece. I am not familiar with the cv4 circuit, but i bet in the capable hands of a J Williams, or Jim Jacobson, they could improve upon it? IMO, probably worth the try with Shannons silly good capsule? It could always be put back to stock easily.
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Post by svart on Sept 9, 2013 8:57:47 GMT -6
I think the water analogy is pretty easy to understand. Voltage is the pressure of the water and current is the flow rate of the water coming out of a pump. Both can be affected by obstructions in the pipe (resistance/impedance) or reservoirs (capacitors).
Say your water pressure/flow is erratic and pulsing. You can add a large reservoir to your system and as the erratic pressure/flow pushes water into the reservoir, the amount of bulk water in the reservoir will buffer the pulses and the pressure/flow out of the other side will be much more steady. This is essentially how bulk decoupling capacitors work.
In filter theory, all decoupling caps form little reservoirs and will steady small pulses that come down the power rails. The resistance in series with the power rails helps this by lessening the pulse's power that the cap has to deal with, but it also can affect the voltage and current by restricting the amount of power that can flow to the part that is using that power. We call that end point the "sink".
In math terms, it's the same as creating an RC filter: 1/(2pi(RC)). The theory above can also be thought of in another way, where current/voltage transients are thought of in the frequency or time domains and the decoupling is based on specifically forming a filter to "short" those frequencies to ground, thereby filtering the "noise" out. It achieves the same thing as the reservoir theory, but it's more based on math. The math way is more specific to certain issues with noise issues in designs, however "rule of thumb" types of decoupling have been determined to be mostly effective.
Now, that was the idea behind decoupling of power rails and the like. The other side is frequently called "AC coupling" or "DC blocking" or even simply, "audio path caps" or something like that.
These serve a different purpose but in a similar way. A lot of active parts will have some amount of DC voltage or currents going into or out of them. The common source for this in audio is the Op Amp. Along with amplifying the audio signal, which is primarily AC signals, the opamp will amplify it's own input currents along with noise from it's output being coupled into it's input through feedback and such. Most of the time this is not a huge concern even though folks will try to sell you snake oil fixes for these things.. But sometimes you have enough DC coming out(called DC offset) of the part that the next part will amplify that DC and you'll lose headroom because the output of that next stage is offset by the amplified amount of the DC offset from the previous stage. This might not be a problem, but loud AC signals will cause the AC signal which has been offset, to clip earlier in the direction that the whole signal has been offset. DC blocking does just that, blocks DC offsets between stages.
AC coupling/DC blocking works as it does by forming a High Pass Filter above the point figured in the equation 1/(2pi(RC)), same as any filter, but the R portion is the output and series impedance of the system and the C is the coupling cap. This frequency determines the lowest frequency that will pass through the series capacitor. DC is essentially thought of as a frequency of ZERO.
While folks will swear that different caps sound different, it's only partially true, especially for decoupling caps. Most of the time with decoupling caps, manufacturers will put the least amount of cheapest caps they can in the box. So when "upgrading" caps, what you are really doing is overcoming the lack of quality decoupling. Once you reach a certain point, any potential problems will be resolved and there is no more performance to be gained from changing decoupling caps. Beyond this, it's just confirmation bias of the person trying to justify the purchase and "hearing" the difference.
Now, DC blocking caps are another issue. this is the place where people will swear and jump up and down and get red in the face to try to badger you into submission in order to get you to buy their "upgrades". Again, a quality cap is rarely used by the manufacturer here, unless you are buying quality gear. Changing the caps out to something higher quality will create some degree of improvement, but over a certain point it's futile. As was mentioned above, the difference in distortion on "quality" caps is negligible although there are plenty who intend to sell you their services who will swear to have proof that this isn't the case, yet they never really produce the proof, rather they just produce customer testimonials from folks who are, again, suffering from confirmation bias. Buying a nice, name brand, high temperature, low ESR cap will serve most people fine, mainly because most of the gear that really needs upgrading is the low to mid level gear which usually has a performance limited design anyway and you could have bought good gear that doesn't need upgrades by the time you've done all your mods.
Hope this answers some questions.
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Post by svart on Sept 9, 2013 8:59:18 GMT -6
Maybe my question should have been what electronics are replaceable in my Miktek CV4 to upgrade the sound? a lot of very successful mic mods, eliminate or upgrade capacitors in the mic circuit, the apex 460 is a popular example of this, it makes that mic a very useful piece. I am not familiar with the cv4 circuit, but i bet in the capable hands of a J Williams, or Jim Jacobson, they could improve upon it? IMO, probably worth the try with Shannons silly good capsule? It could always be put back to stock easily. Honestly when I did my Apex460, the biggest changes were the capsule, tube and biasing changes. The output cap had almost no effect on the sound.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 12:01:01 GMT -6
Maybe my question should have been what electronics are replaceable in my Miktek CV4 to upgrade the sound? That's a high-end microphone. Why do you think anything could be done to improve the sound? At that price I'd expect the manufacturer to have done everything necessary to ensure the highest quality! --Ethan
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Post by svart on Sept 9, 2013 12:47:41 GMT -6
Maybe my question should have been what electronics are replaceable in my Miktek CV4 to upgrade the sound? That's a high-end microphone. Why do you think anything could be done to improve the sound? At that price I'd expect the manufacturer to have done everything necessary to ensure the highest quality! --Ethan Agreed. I think in today's age of internet and availability of good parts for just about anything, that the message most people take from forums and from advertising is that they *can upgrade* anything to get a better sound. Hardly anyone actually asks if they *should upgrade* their device. Most of the time, once you're on top of the bell curve, you're just going to waste money on diminishing returns going forward.
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 9, 2013 13:25:32 GMT -6
Maybe my question should have been what electronics are replaceable in my Miktek CV4 to upgrade the sound? That's a high-end microphone. Why do you think anything could be done to improve the sound? At that price I'd expect the manufacturer to have done everything necessary to ensure the highest quality! --Ethan ?? I don't own a CV4, so i'm not speaking from an owners perspective, but I think the CV4 is a mid level microphone until modded, listen to the cv4 samples thread(on this site), that utilize Shannon's capsule mod, the difference is remarkable! I also think the reality is, leaving $2 off the production costs of a mic that sells 10,000 or so units?, puts a lot of money in someones pocket no? I believe this probably leaves potential for "mod" improvements. I've had in my hands, a stock apex 460, and jim williams's modded apex 460(jims personal mic) he left the stock chinese capsule and transformer(not sure about the tube), neither of these mics are mine, so you can exclude "conformation bias" from the equation, the electronically modded mic made the stock sound like a toy, plain and simple..so?
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Post by svart on Sept 9, 2013 14:21:49 GMT -6
The original C12 circuit that this was modeled after was a great design, no doubt. The original parts used would likely be considered sub-par in performance compared to today's standards, especially any capacitors used. Of course, using the "upgrade is better" logic, then the original C12 is a trash mic and should be completely gutted and redone, right?
All fun-and-games sarcasm aside, the Apex 460 has some serious flaws that the copiers made when attempting a cheap C12 clone. Firstly, the random decoupling caps on the transformer outputs are not well matched to the type of transformer. this is a common problem with DIY and/or cheap "overseas" mics, the disregard for using parts correctly but instead using parts because they were used in some other design and therefor the belief is that they are used everywhere. In the 460, those caps and the inductance of the transformer form a resonant circuit (a tank circuit) and tend to ring badly at higher frequencies creating distortion and peaking frequency response which gives it a crispy/brittle high end with excessive hype that only makes the problem appear worse. Why are those caps there, anyway? Who knows, but a hapless person probably thought that they would cut down on noise or something.
That's just one problem. The second issue is that the tube is an AX7 type, high gain with low current drive. the original was AT7-ish type which had a lot more output drive/impedance. The problem is that the transformer in the 460 is not well matched to the AX7 at all. The AT7 output impedance is a lot better suited for the transformer used. In fact, so much so that myself and others on the internet feel that replacing the output tranny in the 460 is NOT even needed. It does what it does and it does it decently enough not to worry about it.
I would wager that the combination of those two items are the biggest difference in the mic.
The capsule that comes stock is hit/miss with wide ranges of possible sounds coming from multiple samples of capsules. You could get a really sweet one or a really sour one. Jim probably got a really sweet one. Also, the capsule type that is supplied with the 460 was intended for a completely different circuit. In fact the k87 types have a built-in hype and the circuit was supposed to have a corresponding cut, kinda like an old timey pre-emphasis/de-emphasis system to lower high frequency noise. The C12 type capsule had no such hype. In any case, I've modded a handfull of 460's for folks that heard mine, and no two sounded anything alike. Mine was brittle and shrill while my buddy's was muddy and dark. Once the capsules were changed, they sounded alike.
I mean, I'm not criticizing, I hope I don't come across as that. I just want folks to hopefully understand that there IS a point where continuing is just over-doing it. I fell into that trap many years ago, especially once GroupDIY was formed. EVERYTHING i had became modded under the thoughts that it had to be done. I chased that pipedream for years before realizing that the sound I sought was passed long ago and I was completely disoriented about where I was headed. I started from scratch again and quickly found that I had wasted so much time and money because instead of using the right device in the right application, I was trying to force my idea about sound into every device in every situation. Round pegs, square holes and all that.. I vowed to rally against it so that others wouldn't do the same. Now, if my mic doesn't sound good enough, then it's the wrong mic for my application. I don't make the mistake of tearing it apart and tinkering anymore.
I don't have a Miktek mic and I don't have plans for one, but I'd wager that it has much higher quality parts in it than the 460 does..
And finally, what is "high end" exactly? Is it the cost? Is it the build quality? Is it the sound quality? Is it everything? Or is it completely up to the user and application? One man's "high end" might be another's "low end" sound on another source..
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 9, 2013 18:01:02 GMT -6
That's a high-end microphone. Why do you think anything could be done to improve the sound? At that price I'd expect the manufacturer to have done everything necessary to ensure the highest quality! --Ethan ?? I don't own a CV4, so i'm not speaking from an owners perspective, but I think the CV4 is a mid level microphone until modded, listen to the cv4 samples thread(on this site), that utilize Shannon's capsule mod, the difference is remarkable! I also think the reality is, leaving $2 off the production costs of a mic that sells 10,000 or so units?, puts a lot of money in someones pocket no? I believe this probably leaves potential for "mod" improvements. I've had in my hands, a stock apex 460, and jim williams's modded apex 460(jims personal mic) he left the stock chinese capsule and transformer(not sure about the tube), neither of these mics are mine, so you can exclude "conformation bias" from the equation, the electronically modded mic made the stock sound like a toy, plain and simple..so? Yeah - I wouldn't consider the stock CV4 to be a high end microphone...
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 9, 2013 18:05:39 GMT -6
I mean, I'm not criticizing, I hope I don't come across as that. I just want folks to hopefully understand that there IS a point where continuing is just over-doing it. I fell into that trap many years ago, especially once GroupDIY was formed. EVERYTHING i had became modded under the thoughts that it had to be done. I chased that pipedream for years before realizing that the sound I sought was passed long ago and I was completely disoriented about where I was headed. I started from scratch again and quickly found that I had wasted so much time and money because instead of using the right device in the right application, I was trying to force my idea about sound into every device in every situation. Round pegs, square holes and all that.. I vowed to rally against it so that others wouldn't do the same. Now, if my mic doesn't sound good enough, then it's the wrong mic for my application. I don't make the mistake of tearing it apart and tinkering anymore. I don't have a Miktek mic and I don't have plans for one, but I'd wager that it has much higher quality parts in it than the 460 does.. And finally, what is "high end" exactly? Is it the cost? Is it the build quality? Is it the sound quality? Is it everything? Or is it completely up to the user and application? One man's "high end" might be another's "low end" sound on another source.. Alright, alright...Jeesh...I won't worry about upgrading anything...I was just asking...
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Sept 9, 2013 19:56:49 GMT -6
Marlee Matlin and Helen Keller could have heard the difference in my Ghost once the caps were upgraded to Nichicon poly's.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2013 21:13:26 GMT -6
Maybe my question should have been what electronics are replaceable in my Miktek CV4 to upgrade the sound? HOLD UP Didn't you just drop a bunch of money to get Shannon to mod it?? And it STILL ain't good enough?
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 10, 2013 7:54:30 GMT -6
Well, yeah...It sounds fantastic...What's wrong with making it even better? Shannon's mod had nothing to do with the electronics.
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Post by popmann on Sept 10, 2013 8:44:33 GMT -6
Maybe my question should have been what electronics are replaceable in my Miktek CV4 to upgrade the sound? That's a high-end microphone. Why do you think anything could be done to improve the sound? At that price I'd expect the manufacturer to have done everything necessary to ensure the highest quality! --Ethan Maybe the discrepancy is Kennedy isn't plugging it into "any preamp with low noise specs" and then into a Soundblaster running at 44.1.
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Post by jazznoise on Sept 10, 2013 9:04:17 GMT -6
Maybe the discrepancy is Kennedy isn't plugging it into "any preamp with low noise specs" and then into a Soundblaster running at 44.1. Maybe some bitchy, badly worded comments would help. Great idea!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 10:21:37 GMT -6
That's a high-end microphone. Why do you think anything could be done to improve the sound? At that price I'd expect the manufacturer to have done everything necessary to ensure the highest quality! --Ethan Maybe the discrepancy is Kennedy isn't plugging it into "any preamp with low noise specs" and then into a Soundblaster running at 44.1. wait, are you saying that manufacturers use cheap preamps/interfaces when they design their mics and outboard?
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 10, 2013 11:25:25 GMT -6
I'm not sure i fully understand the last few posts , but i believe that manufacture's with an interest in making a profit(all of them lol!), set a real world price point for their product, if they exceed that price point, they won't get the unit sales numbers to make the investment worthwhile, if they spend too much on production costs/materials, they will loose their profit margin, hence making the investment not worthwhile. It's a compromise, and one of the first things to be compromised in the manufacture of audio gear, is the quality of the electronics. I get what svart is saying, you can take it too far, and i have lol!, i've done mods that left me scratching my head , and i've done mods that are shockingly good and everywhere between...so i have personally concluded, the right upgrade on the right piece can be as obvious as cowboys quote above lol! good luck T
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 12:03:27 GMT -6
Yeah - I wouldn't consider the stock CV4 to be a high end microphone... I was going by price only. I never tried or even heard of that particular mic model. But how could a microphone that costs $1,500 not be a "high end" type? As for listening tests of microphones or capacitors or anything else, the universal problem I see is the tests are invalid for various reasons. Usually they compare different performances, and for microphones the mic placements are never identical. When capacitor "upgrades" are compared properly - which is admittedly difficult though not impossible - improvements that had been obvious suddenly become impossible to distinguish. --Ethan
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 10, 2013 12:28:35 GMT -6
ahh.. here we go again, of course the tests are never good enough. I told you guys when we were discussing cable differences, there is only one true answer to this, trust your ears first. And again, improvements can be revealed over time, in many different ways, and after that, they can become obvious. So blind tests have their own bias. There isn't any test that duplicate the experience of listening to music at your studio, (where you know the system, and listen in many different ways) over long periods of time. I think you only need a few seconds to tell if you hear an improvement, or if you like something or not.
Read Malcolm Gladwell's "Blink".
Ethan, if you haven't been in search of the microphone holy grail, I can understand how it might seem strange to hear of a $1500 microphone that needs upgrades. What's happening is there are a few microphones that are unquestionably better than others, an original vintage C12 is one of them. These mics can cost $5,000 to $15,000 if you're lucky enough to find one. What we're all mainly trying to do is come as close to that ideal as we can, so if a $600 upgrade to a $1,500 mic gets us that much closer to the real deal, we figure it's worth it.
Perhaps a beter description might be some mics are first class, some world class, so we are often trying to get our first class mics just over the hump to world class at the best price possible.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 12:28:43 GMT -6
This article comparing cheap versus expensive hi-fi gear is relevant, and it explains some of the things necessary to perform a proper test such as matching volume levels exactly: www.nousaine.com/pdfs/To%20Tweak%20or%20Not.pdfI think the test results at the end are also relevant. --Ethan
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