ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jun 11, 2015 2:37:37 GMT -6
OK I Bought the 28 mono 4 stereo module Status with on Board Dynamics because well it $750 and I do love the Recalll and automation but I just don't love the sound, I know part of what I don't like is the VCA It just seams blurred compared to the DDA FMR Maybe JW could do something with it but if I have it Modded I might as well put the cash into modding the DDA and ending up with an even better sounding board ! I still have 16 mic line modules and 16 line /bus plus a master and 36 module frame plus a 44 module frame and a guy on ebay.de has some stereo modules, But I do like having 6 aux on six knobs rather than 6 aux on 4 knobs and all the routing of the Status, of course I also see used Deltas and Venue Iis on ebay and we all know what JW can do with those ! Is it just a case of GAS or time for a step back ? Or a change?
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Post by winetree on Jun 11, 2015 11:55:14 GMT -6
My Harrison console has V.C.A.s. on the faders. When Jim Wiliams modded the console, he replaced the the V.C.A. output chips with LME49710s and changed the chip cap to 100pf. On the V.C.A. audio in side he increased the cap from 22uf to 100uf and used a .01 bypass cap on the back side. It really cleared up the sound and made the faders very useable. Maybe you can try this on one module and see if this works. I can still mix through the monitor pots and bypass the V.C.A.s all together.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jun 11, 2015 12:47:47 GMT -6
E, go JW, I just got my Delta8 master and an input channel back from Jim the day before yesterday, we went with a custom JW Supermod this time, he went absolutely hog wild on this thing, AD4898's, vishay 1/2 watts, silver wire, balanced D/O's, blah blah, i compared it to my other JW modded master channel this AM, and it's absolutely incredible and utterly invisible! I'm so thrilled with it! The input channel pre and eq are over the top as well, the midrange eq is sweet and perfect! Very stoked dude right here 8)
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Post by winetree on Jun 11, 2015 12:59:49 GMT -6
He replaced some resisters with 1% Dales? Are those S.M. chips on a conversion socket with Heatsinks inplace of the DIP8 I.C.s? Wow, Get out the Hakko.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jun 11, 2015 13:06:26 GMT -6
He replaced some resisters with 1% Dales? Wow, Get out the Hako. Are those Heatsinks on the I.C.s. Yes heatsinks, yes on the adapter boards, yes on the dales, he earned his $ on these suckers, it must have taken him quite a good long time!(even though your harrison looks to be at least 3 times the work?) He lent me his supermod(my term) Aphex 651 and his high speed 8 channel pre to play with for a bit, I already have a few JW modded 651's, it's gonna be interesting to hear the diffs? I can't wait to try my samar ribbons with these pre's as well, they should give me a ton of gain i'd think.
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Post by svart on Jun 11, 2015 16:24:06 GMT -6
I'll be the odd man out here. I say learn it and love it as it is.
The short version of my console life is that I spent considerable amount of time and money modding my console with all the "must have" mods, super-fast opamps, DC coupling stages, servos, film bypassing on series caps, etc. That is until I decided to go back a number of steps. I gained some things, but lost others that I couldn't live without.
Honestly, the sonics might have become more clear in the long run, but I found the change in sonic imprint on the mixes lost a lot of the gel that mixes need these days. Instead of a cohesive soundstage, everything was so clear and defined that it sounded like a bunch of super-clean instruments being played around the room, rather than a band playing together.
I removed the film bypassing on the signal coupling caps, and nothing changed. I removed the super-fast opamps, returned to AC coupling in the signal path and the sound began to gel again.
It may not be clean enough to hear mouse farts during the reprise on track 2, but it sounds like music again. There are definitely places you need clean, and places you need mojo. Let no one convince you that you only need one or the other.
I guess you could say that I'm a reverse-convert now.
If the device in question doesn't have these already, here are mods I like:
Opamp decoupling - small (10nF-100nF) caps on each V pin to ground and one between V pins, 100uF to 330uF on each pin within 3 inches of each opamp (max 3 opamps per bulk cap), 1000uF within 10 inches and on the power input to the channel.
AC coupling - Bipolar electrolytics to replace unipolar ones. I use Nichicon ES.
The rest after this is just changes to taste IMHO.
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Post by guitfiddler on Jun 11, 2015 18:57:53 GMT -6
Here's one of my analog channels that I pulled.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jun 11, 2015 19:05:53 GMT -6
My Harrison console has V.C.A.s. on the faders. When Jim Wiliams modded the console, he replaced the the V.C.A. output chips with LME49710s and changed the chip cap to 100pf. On the V.C.A. audio in side he increased the cap from 22uf to 100uf and used a .01 bypass cap on the back side. It really cleared up the sound and made the faders very useable. Maybe you can try this on one module and see if this works. I can still mix through the monitor pots and bypass the V.C.A.s all together. I know the Harrison Sound been a fan Owned a Raven that was beyond resonable cost to salvage for a shot time, If the Otari Status sounded like a stock Harrison I would be happy! But she don't !
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 11, 2015 19:07:56 GMT -6
E, go JW, I just got my Delta8 master and an input channel back from Jim the day before yesterday, we went with a custom JW Supermod this time, he went absolutely hog wild on this thing, AD4898's, vishay 1/2 watts, silver wire, balanced D/O's, blah blah, i compared it to my other JW modded master channel this AM, and it's absolutely incredible and utterly invisible! I'm so thrilled with it! The input channel pre and eq are over the top as well, the midrange eq is sweet and perfect! Very stoked dude right here 8) View AttachmentView Attachmentm Pretty Bro very pretty!! Next time you stop by JWs ask him what he can do for an Otari Status or a DDA FMR/ Forum!
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Post by jimwilliams on Jun 12, 2015 13:12:39 GMT -6
Otari is always going to sound Japanese, colored in a not so good way. DDA can be improved. Best to use a console design free of VCA's, M-DAC's or fet switches if you want a fuller sound, less plastic.
Less is more, more or less.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 12, 2015 16:32:12 GMT -6
Otari is always going to sound Japanese, colored in a not so good way. DDA can be improved. Best to use a console design free of VCA's, M-DAC's or fet switches if you want a fuller sound, less plastic. Less is more, more or less. Jim that's what I am starting to feel, looking at the schematics The DDA Forum FMR is very very Similar from what I can see to the Delta other than the Pre amp that I have never used , same op amps in same places and from a quick Glance just different Resistor and Cap value! Once things settle down ill give you a shout and send you some modules and $$!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 12, 2015 16:37:01 GMT -6
The funny thing is I keep seeing on the web an orban legend that The DDA FMR Composser was a discrete console ! Well some have Pics of modules full of your standard OpAmps. What really made me laugh was the oldest reference to the idea that its discrete cones from a listing of a console that was posted by a former DDA rep, how can you tell a reps lying ? These days his fingers are typing ! They don't get the BS lives forever on the net .
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2015 20:44:56 GMT -6
The FMR uses TL072 chip opamps and an SSM2017 chip preamp after a Neutrik iron in the micpre, so it's a step up from the average SSM2017 midrange console due to the transformer. But by no means it's discrete or even half discrete (i.e. transistor stage before first chip opamp stages). DDA still carries the schematics right on main webpage, so no clue how these myths could develop.... Never heard any complaints about the DDA sound, so IMO it's ridiculous to build myths about a topology that are not true...makes no sense to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2015 21:05:28 GMT -6
IMO the chip mic pre's of mid class consoles are very underrated, there are several replacements available, from the slightly newer SSM2019 up to the latest greatest THAT chips (e.g. the 1510 is a direct drop-in replacement, as easy as it gets...don't know about if there is later follower chips similar to this). Sure, you can also replace the TL072 with better spec'ed opamps of any kind if you take care of psu, decoupling, taming the bandwidth etc... But i am with svart reg. opamp or topology changes, they *will* change the sound of the console significantly. And honestly, i just revived an SSM2017/TL072 console, a cheaper Soundtracs, and really, it doesn't sound that bad at all from it's general sonic fingerprint and saturation color. Not sterile or metallic as the cheaper japanese consoles, but warm and really OK. Sure, it can't hold the water to the half discrete i have in stock still...but definitely usable...
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 12, 2015 22:18:21 GMT -6
The FMR uses TL072 chip opamps and an SSM2017 chip preamp after a Neutrik iron in the micpre, so it's a step up from the average SSM2017 midrange console due to the transformer. But by no means it's discrete or even half discrete (i.e. transistor stage before first chip opamp stages). DDA still carries the schematics right on main webpage, so no clue how these myths could develop.... Never heard any complaints about the DDA sound, so IMO it's ridiculous to build myths about a topology that are not true...makes no sense to me. Optional Neutrik transformer grasshopper! These myths start idiots who don't know what they are talking about !
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 12, 2015 22:25:15 GMT -6
IMO the chip mic pre's of mid class consoles are very underrated, there are several replacements available, from the slightly newer SSM2019 up to the latest greatest THAT chips (e.g. the 1510 is a direct drop-in replacement, as easy as it gets...don't know about if there is later follower chips similar to this). Sure, you can also replace the TL072 with better spec'ed opamps of any kind if you take care of psu, decoupling, taming the bandwidth etc... But i am with svart reg. opamp or topology changes, they *will* change the sound of the console significantly. And honestly, i just revived an SSM2017/TL072 console, a cheaper Soundtracs, and really, it doesn't sound that bad at all from it's general sonic fingerprint and saturation color. Not sterile or metallic as the cheaper japanese consoles, but warm and really OK. Sure, it can't hold the water to the half discrete i have in stock still...but definitely usable... I have used them but with CAPI Dan Alexander 1272s with old Neve iron and the 24 Ramsa WZAD96M (Panasonic why didn't you put these in a console??) Yes DDA pre useable but seldom used here! I have used them and if I didn't have the outboard I would use them, but a bunch of CAPI 8ch of Neve and 24 damn fine and well regarded clean they just are not going to see much use , unless they just seam to work on something !
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2015 22:38:06 GMT -6
Sure! But in many internet forae (and we know which one particularly...) people can get the impression, that it's not even possible to make professional recordings with less than expensive outboard pres or a top notch high-end console.
And this is for sure plain wrong.
Obviously, you will use the best quality pres that work with the selected mic on the given occasion. :-) And a nice selection of pres you have!
But there is nothing really wrong using a chip pre console channel, and many records were tracked with these ... just thought it should be mentioned. Just made some test trackings thru mentioned console last week and was pretty surprised, didn't turn out bad at all...
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 13, 2015 9:26:59 GMT -6
Sure! But in many internet forae (and we know which one particularly...) people can get the impression, that it's not even possible to make professional recordings with less than expensive outboard pres or a top notch high-end console. And this is for sure plain wrong. Obviously, you will use the best quality pres that work with the selected mic on the given occasion. :-) And a nice selection of pres you have! But there is nothing really wrong using a chip pre console channel, and many records were tracked with these ... just thought it should be mentioned. Just made some test trackings thru mentioned console last week and was pretty surprised, didn't turn out bad at all... I Agree the universal slagging of SSL Pres comes to mind ! I don't think people realize how often the Pres in a console get used on great recordings they love because 1 they are there in the moment 2 Until GS a great studio only had a handful of outboard pres 3 when tracking say drums and bass the ability to sit in the sweet spot and grab something quick made for a better take than reaching in the rack behind you ! I have always said you don't need 8 ch of Neve pres to make a great sounding record , but it sure don't hurt either. The reason I bought the 8 ch of Dan Alexander was I was tired of walking into what was called a studio and not finding enough ch of any one kind of pre to record Drums with! Plus I was finding them at Sub $800 pair and I love them ! They are Huge and exciting sounding , They can make a TLM103 sound big. I describe them as doing what everybody said an exciter would do except these really do it!
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Post by jimwilliams on Jun 13, 2015 9:39:03 GMT -6
IMO the chip mic pre's of mid class consoles are very underrated, there are several replacements available, from the slightly newer SSM2019 up to the latest greatest THAT chips (e.g. the 1510 is a direct drop-in replacement, as easy as it gets...don't know about if there is later follower chips similar to this). After testing the chip IC mic pre's with the Audio Precision, the SSM2019 speced out the best of the batch, SSM2017, INA217, THAT 1510, SSM2019. They also sound the most neutral of the bunch. Besides those I make the Audio Upgrades PIP module, aka the 'plug in preamp', a hybrid mic preamp fitted on a 7/8" square FR-4 pcb. That uses the extremely low noise Renesas 2SA1084 transistors with the spectacular Analog Devices ADA4898-2 opamp. It has .00015% IMD, -132 db EIN at 50 ohms noise spec, 500k hz bandwidth at +60 db of gain and a 60v/us slew rate. Output current is about 45 ma. It exceeds the specs and sound of all the chip mic preamps by quite a margin.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jun 15, 2015 8:17:41 GMT -6
Yes heatsinks, yes on the adapter boards, yes on the dales, he earned his $ on these suckers, it must have taken him quite a good long time!(even though your harrison looks to be at least 3 times the work?) He lent me his supermod(my term) Aphex 651 and his high speed 8 channel pre to play with for a bit, I already have a few JW modded 651's, it's gonna be interesting to hear the diffs? I can't wait to try my samar ribbons with these pre's as well, they should give me a ton of gain i'd think. Wait… there's an EIGHT channel high speed preamp!?! Any pix, prices, etc.? JW? I think the 8 channel is a one off for his own personal use? He has a Hi speed stereo pre he sells i think...? That thing specs off the charts, I never heard it though, still trying to find the time to put this and the super 651 through some paces.
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