|
|
Post by lpedrum on May 7, 2015 22:38:52 GMT -6
I've done a fair amount of folk/americana recording and I don't find that using fewer mics is the way to go. The key/challenge to making the drums work in that idiom is making them gel with acoustic instruments and warm organic sounds. Frankly it's not as easy as getting a modern rock sound, so I often use multiple room mics and front of kit mics etc just to give myself options. Approaching from a less is more/dumbing down approach could leave you handcuffed at mix time. Hopefully the drummer shows up with the right gear and approach. It's all about warmth, fullness, room sounds and dynamics. The snare sound can't be too aggressive unless it's a flat out roots rocker, and the hi hat has to behave well with the acoustic guitar. If the drummer shows up with a suitcase for a bass drum good luck!
|
|
|
|
Post by gouge on May 7, 2015 23:55:02 GMT -6
thanks lpedrum,
I am all ears. had a listen to your work.
back story is the artist is coming in the day before to help setup the drums. i'll have a chat with him then to get a better idea of specifics he's looking for so for now am trying to do some "research".
the kit is a 1960's premier (tuned) 1968 acrolite snare, k custom cymbals. I tend to tune the kick with a lose batter side.
we are definitely not going for roots rocker. warm and organic is where things will be.
I'd certainly be keen to hear your opinion on mic setups for drums. overheads etc.
I've got enough gear at my disposal to achieve any outcomes.
|
|
|
|
Post by Randge on May 8, 2015 1:20:42 GMT -6
Sweet ribbons for me when doing that kind of material. Also, using snare mutes from Bigfatdrumsound.com, towels, and very odd and interesting percussion stacking are what I tend to head towards. If you have a minute, I am working on this guys new music right now with @rbradfordmusic and he is all about that stuff. We built most of the percussion on his tracks out of odds and ends like cardboard paper rolls and sandpaper chunks to keep it from sounding like the percussion was sampled and typical. I even used an AEA KU-3 on his vocals to keep it warm. Josh Shilling is one of my favorite musicians, and he played some great B3 organ on this released material and he will be working on the new material as soon as I am ready for him. The song "American Dream" really has a lot of layers to it and is a fun one and the sparseness of "Gold Rush" shows that Jason never writes the same song over and over. He is a favorite client of mine. If ya got a minute, feel free to scroll down the page through his songs and have a listen here: www.jasondeutsch.com/singles.html |
|
|
|
Post by Ward on May 8, 2015 4:27:49 GMT -6
I've done a fair amount of folk/americana recording and I don't find that using fewer mics is the way to go. The key/challenge to making the drums work in that idiom is making them gel with acoustic instruments and warm organic sounds. Frankly it's not as easy as getting a modern rock sound, so I often use multiple room mics and front of kit mics etc just to give myself options. Approaching from a less is more/dumbing down approach could leave you handcuffed at mix time. Hopefully the drummer shows up with the right gear and approach. It's all about warmth, fullness, room sounds and dynamics. The snare sound can't be too aggressive unless it's a flat out roots rocker, and the hi hat has to behave well with the acoustic guitar. If the drummer shows up with a suitcase for a bass drum good luck! Thank you. I've been waiting for this post and was afraid I'd have to write it. When it comes to anything alt-roots, folk-rock, alt-country, Americana... more options in the mix is a VERY good thing. |
|
|
|
Post by lpedrum on May 8, 2015 8:36:27 GMT -6
thanks lpedrum,
I am all ears. had a listen to your work.
back story is the artist is coming in the day before to help setup the drums. i'll have a chat with him then to get a better idea of specifics he's looking for so for now am trying to do some "research".
the kit is a 1960's premier (tuned) 1968 acrolite snare, k custom cymbals. I tend to tune the kick with a lose batter side.
we are definitely not going for roots rocker. warm and organic is where things will be.
I'd certainly be keen to hear your opinion on mic setups for drums. overheads etc.
I've got enough gear at my disposal to achieve any outcomes.
There are so many different ways to mic up a kit and all can be valid. A mono ribbon overhead (in addition to the stereo pair) can give a focused warmth to the sound and help fatten the overall snare and tom sound. A front of kit mic about 10 feet away is often helpful too in getting the kit to gel and it can help the kick sound more natural. And of course room mics even if you just dial in a little for depth You may want to have a couple of snare options on hand in case the acrolite sounds too peppy. A nice punchy focused kick if good, but avoid the modern big scooped sound. In this idiom there's been a movement in the last 15 years towards altering the kit with more percussion sounds as Randge mentioned. Jay Bellerose and Marco Giovino are masters at that. But it sounds like your drummer is going for a more trad setup which can be cool too. (Harvest and Harvest Moon!) Playing with a lighter touch and avoiding harsh, cutting cymbals will be key. If he plays a lot of hi hat be really sure that it meshes well with the acoustic guitar. Beck's latest CD and Sea Change, although big, lush productions have wonderful drum sounds that play nicely with acoustic guitar. I'm sure others could site examples too. It really is going to come down to the drummer, but miking options will help a lot. |
|
|
|
Post by lpedrum on May 8, 2015 8:46:18 GMT -6
Sweet ribbons for me when doing that kind of material. Also, using snare mutes from Bigfatdrumsound.com, towels, and very odd and interesting percussion stacking are what I tend to head towards. If you have a minute, I am working on this guys new music right now with @rbradfordmusic and he is all about that stuff. We built most of the percussion on his tracks out of odds and ends like cardboard paper rolls and sandpaper chunks to keep it from sounding like the percussion was sampled and typical. I even used an AEA KU-3 on his vocals to keep it warm. Josh Shilling is one of my favorite musicians, and he played some great B3 organ on this released material and he will be working on the new material as soon as I am ready for him. The song "American Dream" really has a lot of layers to it and is a fun one and the sparseness of "Gold Rush" shows that Jason never writes the same song over and over. He is a favorite client of mine. If ya got a minute, feel free to scroll down the page through his songs and have a listen here: www.jasondeutsch.com/singles.htmlI'll have to check out those snare heads! I clicked on the song links but haven't allowed myself to get Spotify yet--I suppose at some point I'll have to relent. But I've heard other work you do and you get great sounds Randge. |
|
|
|
Post by gouge on May 8, 2015 17:12:48 GMT -6
thanks guys. funny you should mention ribbon mics. my go to overheads mics are a pair of m160's. having low ceilings means I stick with card patterns. I was going to try the modified oktava for this session (awesome mics) but know the m160 very well so maybe should stick with that? after reading everyone's comments I've decided I'll try an ortf pair with a mono overhead. I found an example of that setup online an it was stunning. may give my less well known rca mic a run at the mono overhead. i usually use it as a room mic and i like it a lot. I've taken on board using more mics than the simple setup. i agree that it will reduce option at mix time and not being the mix engineer i'd rather produce results with options. while i['m not going to use as many mics as i usually use for rock/punk stuff i'll probably go with mk012 ortf overheads rca sk-46 mono overhead sm57 snare akg d202e kick ev365 room mic spaced pair akg c414 mono room. i'm intending on setting up the ortf in the best spot to get the entire kit, then i'll set the mono overhead with a tape measure to match. the room mics i'll also use the tape and set them 3 times the overheads out from the kit. i had been thinking about throwing a sheet over the snare. I've got 2 options with snare. the acrolite and an 8" premier. I've got a fairly solid ribbon mic setup but i am lacking long ribbon mics and the 74jr won't be back in the studio until the week after. thanks for the links Randge. tried to look but I'm not on spotify. :-( will probably grab some of those big fat drum covers at some point. speaking of vocals. my modified ntk was the first up for that. guitars are fender/musicman was going to use an r121/ma5 bass fender/musicman m380/m201 mics plus a DI |
|
|
|
Post by lpedrum on May 8, 2015 20:52:38 GMT -6
Let us know how it goes!
|
|
|
|
Post by gouge on May 8, 2015 21:36:52 GMT -6
check this out. i really like how this sounds. it is a little too wide for what I'm going for but......
it's a 6 mic setup.
|
|
|
|
Post by Randge on May 8, 2015 21:55:35 GMT -6
Not a fan of that kick drum ringing like that but the rest of the kit sounds nice and open.
|
|
|
|
Post by gouge on May 8, 2015 23:55:56 GMT -6
i was in such a happy place, then you go and point out that odd low end noise. :-( 
|
|
|
|
Post by Randge on May 9, 2015 0:57:08 GMT -6
It is really weird cause it changes pitch.
|
|
|
|
Post by lpedrum on May 9, 2015 7:27:03 GMT -6
The wide open kick sounds cool in this context, but yeah, that'd be problematic laying down a groove. I little dampening would solve that. These drums are tuned high for jazz--not exactly what usually happens in folk/Americana but the openness of the sound is really nice. I'd still throw a mic on the snare just to have more control over how it sits in the mix.
|
|
|
|
Post by gouge on May 9, 2015 18:55:04 GMT -6
Yeah I'd grab snare as well. Can always not use it.
Do you tend to mic more of the shell with more acoustic genres or grab the top angling the mic more to the centre to smooth out tone.
|
|
|
|
Post by lpedrum on May 9, 2015 22:03:30 GMT -6
Yeah I'd grab snare as well. Can always not use it. Do you tend to mic more of the shell with more acoustic genres or grab the top angling the mic more to the centre to smooth out tone. To be honest I've never understood the benefit of miking the shell--perhaps someone on RGO can enlighten me! (strange because I often mic the body of an acoustic guitar and not the strings.) |
|
|
|
Post by dandeurloo on May 10, 2015 9:11:23 GMT -6
You get more of the wood/body tone of the drum. I do that rather then under mic. Placement again is key. You have to be sure to not get to much HH or cymbals. I sometime use a ribbon mic and use the null to my advantage. Whenever I do this it is in a pretty big production and micing setup. So, I am also using a top mic and blending the 2 together. This may not be the tone you are looking for in your upcoming session. I would do a top mic and pull it back a little bit so the drum is a more complete sound rather then just snr head. But it only takes a few mins to try a few positions. The biggest thing is gonna be proper tuning for sure.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ward on May 10, 2015 10:13:11 GMT -6
You get more of the wood/body tone of the drum. I do that rather then under mic. Placement again is key. You have to be sure to not get to much HH or cymbals. I sometime use a ribbon mic and use the null to my advantage. Whenever I do this it is in a pretty big production and micing setup. So, I am also using a top mic and blending the 2 together. This may not be the tone you are looking for in your upcoming session. I would do a top mic and pull it back a little bit so the drum is a more complete sound rather then just snr head. But it only takes a few mins to try a few positions. The biggest thing is gonna be proper tuning for sure. Please post a picture. I would love to see your technique! |
|
|
|
Post by gouge on May 13, 2015 17:56:51 GMT -6
just wanted to thank everyone for the ideas.
finished the sessions yesterday and the artist is very happy as things stand.
I'm writing up a full run down of the 2.5 day session which I'll post in the what are you working on forum. I'll also try and get some samples online. I do not have permission to post tracks and didn't ask. I do not want to spoil that relationship.
but I'll post a few very short segments of the mics in position in their raw format for comparison.
|
|
