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Post by carymiller on Apr 9, 2015 17:51:50 GMT -6
Alright so I'm building a new rackmountable PC after thinking about how I can the best bang for my buck with a new rig.
Currently I own two DAW's:
Cubase 8.5
Pro Tools 11 (Not HD)
I'm using a 3U Rackmountable MATX case which is being sound treated to eliminate noise. For a fraction of the cost of a fully upgraded Mac I can get 32 Gig of Ram and an i7 4790 3.6GH Quad Processor. It will house three 1T SSD Samsung Drives...and I have a few good externals for backups.
I'm wondering if running Bootcamp so I can also install Logic Pro might worth it for Logic based session importing...anyone doing something similar where you're trying to keep costs down, but really run a brute of a machine?
I'm leaning heavily towards Windows 8.1, but I've run Windows 7 rigs for the past three years and I'm thinking the ceiling of staying with that OS has got to be at hand.
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Post by svart on Apr 10, 2015 13:06:52 GMT -6
When I built mine recently, I used an i3, 8GB ram. I also use a DSP card that takes care of a lot of the processing power for the computer so the CPU/RAM isn't taxed enough for me to worry about going big and fast. I came from a 13 year old P4 computer with 2GB of RAM, so this thing is blazingly fast to me. I used to render files that would take minutes to finish, and now they take like 2 seconds.
However, I found a few things over the years that sometimes need attention.
Rack chassis sometimes suffer from sloppy craftsmanship, especially the "affordable" ones. I usually disassemble them and sand down the paint/metal anywhere where panels meet in order to ensure perfect grounding. This can fix ground loops and digital noise problems that you may or may not hear.
Power supplies should be maximum quality you can afford. I can't remember what I bought but it was expensive and it got extremely good reviews about longevity and lack of issues. it also had some kind of lifetime warranty or something. After years of swapping these things out and having intermittent issues with cheap supplies not supplying strong and quiet power, I started buying more expensive units. The issues definitely went away.
I stayed windows 7 for the time being simply because I know it well and at least one of my devices has no windows 8 drivers.
The rest is simply up to your desires.
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Post by carymiller on Apr 10, 2015 16:52:40 GMT -6
When I built mine recently, I used an i3, 8GB ram. I also use a DSP card that takes care of a lot of the processing power for the computer so the CPU/RAM isn't taxed enough for me to worry about going big and fast. I came from a 13 year old P4 computer with 2GB of RAM, so this thing is blazingly fast to me. I used to render files that would take minutes to finish, and now they take like 2 seconds. However, I found a few things over the years that sometimes need attention. Rack chassis sometimes suffer from sloppy craftsmanship, especially the "affordable" ones. I usually disassemble them and sand down the paint/metal anywhere where panels meet in order to ensure perfect grounding. This can fix ground loops and digital noise problems that you may or may not hear. Power supplies should be maximum quality you can afford. I can't remember what I bought but it was expensive and it got extremely good reviews about longevity and lack of issues. it also had some kind of lifetime warranty or something. After years of swapping these things out and having intermittent issues with cheap supplies not supplying strong and quiet power, I started buying more expensive units. The issues definitely went away. I stayed windows 7 for the time being simply because I know it well and at least one of my devices has no windows 8 drivers. The rest is simply up to your desires. What PSU were you looking at? I've been thinking about a Corsair RM750...but I could easily spring for something with more wattage. Also for sanding down the panels where the paint...what grade sandpaper are you using? That's sincerely interesting to me. This chassis is used by ADK routinely so...while it's relativelyinexpensive...it has great specs for the money. (It costs around $87 for a 3U unit.) It's major drawback is that I will have to run 3 SSD Hard Drive's instead of 4...but I should be able to make a computer with USB 3/2, Thunderbolt...and MADI interfacing when I'm done with the build out. Your post has me really thinking though. |
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Post by carymiller on Apr 10, 2015 18:40:04 GMT -6
Here's the budget so far and picks for components:
01. $87 - iStarUSA D-313SE-MATX Black Aluminum / Steel 3U Rackmount Compact Industrial Chassis - Black Bezel 2 External 5.25" Drive Bays (LINK)
02. $120 - Corsair RM750 Power Supply Unit (LINK)
03. $150 - ASUS Z97-A LGA 1150 Intel Z97 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard (LINK)
04. $310 - Intel Core i7-4790 Haswell Quad-Core 3.6GHz LGA 1150 84W BX80646I74790 Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 4600 (LINK)
05. $283 - Corsair Vengeance 32GB (4x8GB) DDR3 1600 MHz (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory (LINK)
06. $980 x3 Samsung 850 Pro 1 TB 2.5-Inch SATA III Internal SSD (MZ-7KE1T0BW) (LINK) (Already have one of these, which will make three total.)
07. $200-300 Acoustic Treatment & Fans (Looking at options)
08. $310 Zotac Video Card TTX 970 ZT-90101-10P (LINK)
09. $100 Windows 8.1 (If upgrading now proves worth it after a bit more research, but for Cubase performance seems to be way up for most users.)
So all in...we're talking $2,540-$2640ish. Going for a more heavy duty PSU isn't not a big deal in terms of additional costs.
This is still so much cheaper than a new mack or white boxed PC...and the specs are amazing. This computer is being built to last for minimum 5 years of heavy use.
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Post by sopwith on Apr 10, 2015 19:09:05 GMT -6
Here are my few thoughts -
I have an Asus 1150 socket z68 mobo and while it's been awesome in performance and price, it's not well grounded. It is several years old, but best to check that the exact mobo/PSU combination you're buying has positive reviews in the noise area.
I'd recommend an EVGA or Gigabyte GTX 970 (I run the Gigabyte 970 G1 and its excellent). Worth the few extra bucks for either EVGA's great support or Gigabyte's solid rep.
RAM looks great.
You're doing so well in the price to performance ratio that I can't - in good faith - recommend laying out that cash for 1TB SSDs. Even if you just scale back to 500GB versions, you're going to save money that could be put to better use elsewhere. Storage drops in price so drastically year on year, I don't think it's worth it to buy top-of-the-line solid state storage. There are great hybrid SSD/HDD drives out there with awesome read/write speeds - I use the Seagate 2 TB Solid State Hybrid and thoroughly recommend it. YES, it may mean more moving files between drives, but I just don't think the 1TB SSDs are a good value right now. Obviously you like the one you have, but maybe use that as a Samples/Libraries drive, get a 500GB for your system drive, then get a 2 or 3 TB hybrid drive for storage.
Great looking rig though - definitely go Windows 8.1, it's a nice interface and you'll get Windows 10 free should you choose to update. I've had no problems at all on 8.1
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Post by sopwith on Apr 10, 2015 19:13:12 GMT -6
Oh I should add, I personally think it's worth it to get the unlocked "K" version of the processor. These new Intel chips overclock so well and the Asus software makes it so easy. I've gone between my standard chip speed of 3.4ghz and my usual (rock solid) over clock at 4.4ghz several times, and the difference in processing power is very noticeable.
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Post by gouge on Apr 10, 2015 20:49:44 GMT -6
I would go for 4x250gb raid 10 drives partitioned into c: windows, D: programs, E: projects
and add a 1tb archive drive and an additional 1tb backup drive.
auto backup programs are available that work on shutdown. that way you don't need to think about it.
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Post by gouge on Apr 10, 2015 20:59:57 GMT -6
being an asus fanboy and without doing bucket loads of research I would base a new box around this motherboard. X99-E WS
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Post by svart on Apr 10, 2015 21:34:50 GMT -6
Always buy an intel brand motherboard for the most dependability. I've never had an intel brand board fail while pretty much all other brands have failed me at one time or another.
I run a corsair power supply in my gaming computer, it's about 4 years old now and still strong. I think the recording computer is running a Fractal Designs supply, which was the top of the line almost 2 years ago when I bought it.
Also, I'll second backing off the SSD route. Maybe run a single SSD for the OS installation/application drive, but regular SATA6 HDDs for the data drives. I've not seen a recording program have an issue with regular platter harddrive speeds.
I was also a die-hard Seagate fan for the longest time, but when they bought Maxtor/Quantum, their reliability went into the toilet. I've since moved to WD Black drives for everything except my USB backup which is now a WD Green.
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Post by carymiller on Apr 10, 2015 21:41:15 GMT -6
Always buy an intel brand motherboard for the most dependability. I've never had an intel brand board fail while pretty much all other brands have failed me at one time or another. I run a corsair power supply in my gaming computer, it's about 4 years old now and still strong. I think the recording computer is running a Fractal Designs supply, which was the top of the line almost 2 years ago when I bought it. Also, I'll second backing off the SSD route. Maybe run a single SSD for the OS installation/application drive, but regular SATA6 HDDs for the data drives. I've not seen a recording program have an issue with regular platter harddrive speeds. I was also a die-hard Seagate fan for the longest time, but when they bought Maxtor/Quantum, their reliability went into the toilet. I've since moved to WD Black drives for everything except my USB backup which is now a WD Green. With the Fractal PSU vs the Corsair are you noticing much by way of a difference in power regulation and noise? |
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Post by gouge on Apr 10, 2015 21:46:56 GMT -6
you don't need an intel brand motherboard. what is needed is a motherboard with intel chipsets.
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Post by svart on Apr 10, 2015 21:47:45 GMT -6
Always buy an intel brand motherboard for the most dependability. I've never had an intel brand board fail while pretty much all other brands have failed me at one time or another. I run a corsair power supply in my gaming computer, it's about 4 years old now and still strong. I think the recording computer is running a Fractal Designs supply, which was the top of the line almost 2 years ago when I bought it. Also, I'll second backing off the SSD route. Maybe run a single SSD for the OS installation/application drive, but regular SATA6 HDDs for the data drives. I've not seen a recording program have an issue with regular platter harddrive speeds. I was also a die-hard Seagate fan for the longest time, but when they bought Maxtor/Quantum, their reliability went into the toilet. I've since moved to WD Black drives for everything except my USB backup which is now a WD Green. With the Fractal PSU vs the Corsair are you noticing much by way of a difference in power regulation and noise? I've not done any electrical testing (load/step response/noise, etc) but audible noise from the fans is low in both and buzz from the electronics is undetectable in both(I've had some cheap supplies that whined all the freaking time..). I'd consider them both excellent supplies. I think the Fractal tested better electrically on certain websites than the Corsair did and that's why I picked it, but thinking about it now, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Corsair either. That being said, I don't overclock or anything anymore. Stability is key for my recording computer. For my gaming computer I don't have much in the way of problems playing the most recent games at super high quality, so I don't really experiment with overclocking on it anymore either. |
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Post by carymiller on Apr 10, 2015 22:20:37 GMT -6
With the Fractal PSU vs the Corsair are you noticing much by way of a difference in power regulation and noise? I've not done any electrical testing (load/step response/noise, etc) but audible noise from the fans is low in both and buzz from the electronics is undetectable in both(I've had some cheap supplies that whined all the freaking time..). I'd consider them both excellent supplies. I think the Fractal tested better electrically on certain websites than the Corsair did and that's why I picked it, but thinking about it now, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Corsair either. That being said, I don't overclock or anything anymore. Stability is key for my recording computer. For my gaming computer I don't have much in the way of problems playing the most recent games at super high quality, so I don't really experiment with overclocking on it anymore either. I've started to revise the build around your collective advice a bit Svart... (also my lists say "link" next to each listing...but that's because I'm including links in my word file.) 01. $87 - iStarUSA D-313SE-MATX Black Aluminum / Steel 3U Rackmount Compact Industrial Chassis - Black Bezel 2 External 5.25" Drive Bays (LINK) 02. $120 - Corsair RM750 Power Supply Unit (LINK) 03. $160 - ASUS Z97-A/USB 3.1 LGA 1150 Intel Z97 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.1 ATX Intel Motherboard (LINK) 04. $340 - Intel Core i7-4790K Devil’s Canyon Quad-Core 4.0GHz LGA 1150 BX80646I74790K Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 4600 (LINK) 05. $283 - Corsair Vengeance 32GB (4x8GB) DDR3 1600 MHz (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory (LINK) 06. $538 - x2 Samsung 850 Pro 512GB 2.5-Inch SATA III Internal SSD (LINK) 07. $110 - CORSAIR Hydro Series H105 Extreme Performance 240mm Liquid CPU Cooler (LINK) 08. $100 - Windows 8.1 This is still a rack mount version using all Corsair stuff for PSU and liquid cooler...I found a site that sells the fractal stuff (they also have a huge and very nice Fractal tower for not much more) Couple points... I changed the motherboard out to the USB 3.1 / Thunderbolt compatible ASUS Z97-A...it has flat out the best ratings out of any mother board I can find...and it's not too much more expensive than the other I was thinking about. The Board Gouge pointed me towards has fantastic specs...but it's $500...and at over x3 the price I'm not sure that it's worth the money Vs other components. Still it's the same company and the only one I can find with Thunderbolt and USB3.1 I/O. I took Sopwith's and your advice into account when it comes to storage, but I really love the way things work with my Samsung. I've opted for two 512GB EVO PRO's...I'm paying a bit more than cheaper drives, but I'm getting the same performance as my 1T drive I was given as a gift from my brother last week. I also upgraded my processor to the highest rated 4.0 "K" version...again I was only paying $20 more for an extremely well reviewed upgraded when checked several websites. I have externals too...that's more than enough storage. The real issues: Should I be looking a "quiet case" by fractal, and better spec supply, etc. As well as acoustic treatment to keep the PC quiet? I will be tracking in my control room and this might become an issue. Or is the Corsair stuff fine...and is it better to go with a rackmount case to keep the PC off the ground and away from where it can get dusty fast (I'm gonna go over things one more time in the morning there but any input is appreciated.) Lastly I'm looking at EVGA and ZOTAC Video cards mostly...970's...from what I'm reading the ZOTAC stuff tends to have far less coil noise going on. I want to minimize noise whenever possible, but these two companies seem to be getting best in show from reviews online. There's two ZOTAC'S in similar price ranges I'm going to link see what you guys think: 01. ZOTAC ZT-90107-10P GeForce GTX 970 4GB 256-Bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 SLI Support AMP! Extreme Core Edition Video Card
02. ZOTAC ZT-90106-10P GeForce GTX 970 4GB 256-Bit GDDR5 PCI Express SLI Support AMP! Omega Core Edition Video CardBoth of these seem to be "quieter" than the EVGA or other brand name comparable cards with near perfect records when it comes to customer service. I know gamers run two of these at times, but I might needing two PCIE slots for an RME MADI FX card depending on how much I/O is deemed necessary over the next week (which would take up two slots easily.) Going back to the Fractal case...there's room for a lot more PCIE express slots there. Anyways thoughts gang? |
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Post by gouge on Apr 10, 2015 22:30:36 GMT -6
I did some further digging and the x99 deluxe $380 so that's the one I'd use.
my current work pc and current studio pc were all built around x58 asus boards. work pc is water cooled and studio pc uses a quiet case.
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Post by sopwith on Apr 10, 2015 22:59:00 GMT -6
That...is a pretty slick build. The Corsair HX650 has served me very well, so I'd imagine the 750 is even better.
I'd forgotten about the EVGA 970 coil whine, it does seem like a real thing from some of the videos. If you want the quietest card, the Asus DCIIs run very cool and the fans don't really kick in until it starts being pushed. Had a DCII 570 and it was whisper quiet. I can't comment on the Zotac stuff, never owned it.
You won't need two 970s unless you want to run next year's games at 4K on ultra settings, or next gen games on a VR headset (in fact, one 970 powers my Oculus Rift just fine). One 970 will destroy any audio or video production work you can throw at it - great cards.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 11, 2015 5:38:54 GMT -6
I'm more of a Mac guy, but support a number of PC's in my department. We almost universally run Intel processors (mostly i7) and they've been reliable. When we order spinning HDD's, we get the WD Black. Personally, if you have the budget, I would stick with the SSD's though. They run quieter and run cooler which should in turn require less case fan action. Just my 2c.
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Post by carymiller on Apr 11, 2015 18:10:26 GMT -6
being an asus fanboy and without doing bucket loads of research I would base a new box around this motherboard. X99-E WS 01. $120 - Fractal Design Define R5 FD-CA-DEF-R5-BK Black Computer Case (LINK) 02. $14 - Fractal Design Dynamic GP-14 140mm Fan (LINK) 03. $110 - CORSAIR Hydro Series H105 Extreme Performance 240mm Liquid CPU Cooler (LINK) 04. $190 Fractal Design Newton R3 800W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Certified 80 PLUS PLATINUM Certified Modular Power Supply (LINK) 05. $520 ASUS RAMPAGE V EXTREME/U3.1 LGA 2011-v3 Intel X99 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.1 Extended ATX Intel Motherboard (LINK) 06. $580 Intel Core i7-5930K Haswell-E 6-Core 3.5GHz LGA 2011-v3 140W BX80648I75930K Desktop Processor (LINK) 07. $810 G.SKILL Ripjaws 4 series 64GB (8 x 8GB) 288-Pin DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 2800 (PC4-22400) Intel X99 Desktop Memory Model (LINK) 08. $390 (x2) SAMSUNG 850 EVO MZ-75E500B/AM 2.5" 500GB SATA III 3-D Vertical Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) (LINK) [1T Total!]09. $310 - Zotac Video Card TTX 970 ZT-90101-10P (LINK) 10. $100 - Windows 8.1 Total: $3,044...maybe $3,300 if you spring for extended warranties on key components.Hey Gouge, I tried designing a more expensive computer at the $3,000 mark...using the RAMPAGE V X99 motherboard and jumping up to DD4 in an effort to "future proof" things a bit more. I had to drop SSD HD size down to two 500GB EVO's in order to get things down to what I'd be able to afford...but this is around the top of what I could pay for with a i7-5930K 6-Core. What's interesting is how that chip is the last 6-Core design released, and technically the best in terms of performance, but it's actually a mid-priced chip that can outperform far more expensive designs. I dunno what do you guys think? all in I'm spending $700ish more to jump up to this and I can always add more larger drives later if I go with that giant Fractal case. |
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Post by carymiller on Apr 11, 2015 18:42:31 GMT -6
I'm more of a Mac guy, but support a number of PC's in my department. We almost universally run Intel processors (mostly i7) and they've been reliable. When we order spinning HDD's, we get the WD Black. Personally, if you have the budget, I would stick with the SSD's though. They run quieter and run cooler which should in turn require less case fan action. Just my 2c. I agree with you...and honestly I have two 4TB WD externals I'm backing up all my old drives and PC's too this weekend in prep for the move I'm making. All the extraneous stuff can go there...I'd rather the workstation run smoothly...the real question becomes 850 EVO Vs 850 PRO by Samsung...the PRO is better in terms of performance, but I'm reading that they've had firmware issues (I haven't yet with the one I got as a gift...but I'm not sure it's worth risking that for all the drives in a new machine.) |
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Post by carymiller on Apr 11, 2015 18:43:57 GMT -6
That...is a pretty slick build. The Corsair HX650 has served me very well, so I'd imagine the 750 is even better. I'd forgotten about the EVGA 970 coil whine, it does seem like a real thing from some of the videos. If you want the quietest card, the Asus DCIIs run very cool and the fans don't really kick in until it starts being pushed. Had a DCII 570 and it was whisper quiet. I can't comment on the Zotac stuff, never owned it. You won't need two 970s unless you want to run next year's games at 4K on ultra settings, or next gen games on a VR headset (in fact, one 970 powers my Oculus Rift just fine). One 970 will destroy any audio or video production work you can throw at it - great cards. Never used Zotac either, but I was able to get their customer service the fastest when I had questions yesterday...and about four distributors had similar reviews about them being quieter overall...I'm still going to do more research into next week before I choose a card though, but for now they're holding the place. |
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Post by gouge on Apr 12, 2015 4:23:14 GMT -6
I guess everyone has their own take on things. to me getting an x99 MB not only gets you future proof but it also has much better buss through put and expansion. that to me is a big ticket for audio boxes. why I always lean towards workstations over gaming pc's.
for me the daw is the centre of the universe if you are going itb. even with a hybrid system it's still the centre of the universe. I'd throw a good level of money at it. to put it into context the x58 system I use which has 16gb of ram can run 50 track projects at 192khz with 4-5 plugs on every track. i would also specifically avoid usb and firewire converters setups and go for aes or similar. a workstation gives you many more options through the onboard pci ports to jump to future tech whatever form that takes and more buss width is better.
I had a quick run at a system. I didn't go into in depth comparisons and used a rack chasis like your first run. me personally I'd go for a tower case specifically designed to be quiet. anyways...... I didn't check size of cpu fan fitting into case so some balances and cheques would need to be done.
I'd also run a dual monitor setup.
asus x99 deluxe - $383
i7 5820K 3.3ghz - $390
CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB - $380
256gb sandisk extreme pro ssd - $147 x 4 configured as raid 10 = $588
PNY Quadro K2200 - $430
FSP Aurum Pro Quiet Modular Power Supplies 1000w - $170
Noctua NH-D15 - $100 (need adaptor as well I believe)
iStar® D400 - $179
western digital green 2tb drive - $80
$2700
I'm certain you could get a serious piece of kit for 3k. maybe upsec the ram a little further??? go for the next cpu up???
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Post by gouge on Apr 12, 2015 4:27:55 GMT -6
also forgot to add. the fastest way to bog down a DAW is to connect it to the internet. it will suffer from OS decay faster than yo ucan catch up. every DAW I've ever built has been kept offline unless i need to install an ilok or update software. then i take it offline.
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Post by gouge on Apr 12, 2015 5:05:39 GMT -6
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Post by gouge on Apr 12, 2015 5:09:46 GMT -6
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Post by gouge on Apr 12, 2015 7:27:37 GMT -6
another saving. you can still get the quadro 2000 card for $250. but if you are doing video editing or intend on using CUDA emulations I'd keep the k2200.
asus x99 deluxe - $383
i7 5820K 3.3ghz - $390
CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 32GB - $380
256gb sandisk extreme pro ssd - $147 x 4 configured as raid 10 = $588
PNY Quadro 2000 - $250
XFX Pro Series 850W Black Edition - $125
Noctua NH-U14s - $70 (need adaptor as well I believe)
Fractal Design Define R5 - $120
western digital green 2tb drive - $80 windows 8.1 - $100
$2423 |
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Post by gouge on Apr 12, 2015 19:47:00 GMT -6
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