|
Post by KJ on Mar 19, 2015 3:54:51 GMT -6
Today I came across an interesting article about how the A/C polarity in power outlet could affect the performance (sound quality) of an audio device and at first I thought to myself "how is that possible and even if that's true how does it matter since the A/C will be converted to D/C before it gets to the circuit anyway?" but the article went on to say that polarity on AC outlet could affect the quality of DC and that in turn could affect the circuit. The writer also claimed that although the voltage difference between ground and neutral should be 0V in a perfect world it is not always the case and this could be the cause of the A/C polarity. Now here is the interesting point that he made in his article. He said that because all of the electrical equipment in our system has been designed with proper A/C polarity in mind it is possible to improve the sound quality by reversing the direction of the plug. Well... to be honest I think that's just a load of BS since I have never heard of a manufacturer claiming that their gear has been designed with A/C polarity in mind (I mean normally A/C polarity shouldn't even exist right? and who in their right mind would make an assumption that someone's mains outlet is polarised and design their gear to compensate for that). Obviously I am not an electrical engineer and possess no in depth knowledge on this subject so I can only make assumptions from what I have learned during my high school days. What are your thoughts on this subject? This is not the article I read but it talks about A/C polarity so have a read if you are interested. www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/acpolarity.html
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 5:26:28 GMT -6
Sure there is polarity in your AC, one pin is phase, the other return. Around here in germany, the electrical Schuko-plug/outlet system does not determine, which is which, so electrical equipment is supposed to assume both pins could be phase/hot (in the middle is earth as a third line for safety reasons). Therefore e.g. BOTH poles have to be switched by a device's on/off power switch (SHOULD, but obviously, just switching one pole is cheaper, so.....you understand the difference, if phase/hot is connected to the whole circuit or not?). E.g., you could touch the cold line without any harm, not so the hot pole... It becomes interesting, if you count in grounding into equation and actually, there is a difference in some audio gear and you actually get lower noise floor when connecting one way, but not the other. This is actually not something a manufacturer intended as a feature when it happens. It is a design flaw at the end.
|
|
|
Post by KJ on Mar 19, 2015 6:18:36 GMT -6
so... basically reversing the plug could make a difference but there is no 'correct' way if I have understood correctly? hmm.. interesting. Where I live (New Zealand) we use 3 prong plug and can't really change the direction so this whole thing about changing the direction of a plug didn't make much sense to me.
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Mar 19, 2015 6:39:38 GMT -6
There is a correct way. Every electrical permit issued is done so by a qualified electrical inspector and inspected by another qualified inspector. Your electrician/ contractor who hooks everything up went to school and learned how to do this VERY basic thing. There are brass and white metal lugs on each outlet specifying which is hot and which is return line. It is nearly impossible to eff up and there are three LICENSED qualified technicians who are involved.
Only someone without a clue doing your wiring as a DYI project could possibly screw it up. It is really that basic.
Simple test:[/b] If you plug a lamp with a dimmer switch into an outlet, using a dimmable florescent bulb, it won't work properly if the wiring is backwards. If it's wired correctly, no problems.
|
|
|
Post by KJ on Mar 19, 2015 7:21:00 GMT -6
Well the article was written in a foreign language and it seems that I have chosen the wrong word (polarity) in my translation. So what the article is trying to say is that there is some sort of permanent + - voltage difference between cold and hot receptacles outside the normal 220V voltage swing (I'm not even sure if that makes any sense..).
|
|
|
Post by svart on Mar 19, 2015 7:25:26 GMT -6
Ok, lemme set some things straight in case of confusion..
In the USA we have a "polarized" plug/socket system for our AC power. This means the physical orientation of the plug into the socket, not the polarity of the power. The polarity of the plug/socket is so that the devices that have only a single fuse and/or power switch will always have the fuse/power switch on the "Line" side. Line is sometimes referred to as "Hot".
USA: Line/Hot/Phase = Current source Neutral = Current return Ground = Safety ground
Secondly, in the USA we also have "Neutral" and "Ground" conductors in our AC wiring. Neutral is the current return for the Line power. Ground is ONLY for safety and should not be used for current return. Neutral and ground are tied together and earth grounded at the fuse/circuit breaker panel and will be a relatively similar voltage. However, since current and resistance are different on different conductors, you WILL have slightly different voltages on Neutral and Ground and this is not a problem unless it's caused by poor ground bonding.
Thirdly, and most importantly for the discussion of audio gear is that most power systems in audio gear don't care if your Line and Neutral are backwards, aside from the safety aspect.
A power transformer doesn't care what primary conductors your Line and Neutral inputs are attached to. The bridge rectifier on the output of the power transformer doesn't care either. The transformers are never marked for signal "polarity". Bridge rectifiers only have ~ ~ symbols for the AC inputs because at that point the AC is now completely differential in nature and not referenced to ground.
A SMPS power supply doesn't care either since the Line and Neutral are rectified immediately and usually isolated from the rest of the circuit.
If the article were confused and talking about mixing up Ground and Neutral, you have a recipe for disaster anyway.
As for your wiring in NZ, a quick search shows a similar single phase approach but using 220VAC/50HZ.
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Mar 19, 2015 9:11:51 GMT -6
Ok, lemme set some things straight in case of confusion.. In the USA we have a "polarized" plug/socket system for our AC power. This means the physical orientation of the plug into the socket, not the polarity of the power. The polarity of the plug/socket is so that the devices that have only a single fuse and/or power switch will always have the fuse/power switch on the "Line" side. Line is sometimes referred to as "Hot". USA: Line/Hot/Phase = Current source Neutral = Current return Ground = Safety ground Secondly, in the USA we also have "Neutral" and "Ground" conductors in our AC wiring. Neutral is the current return for the Line power. Ground is ONLY for safety and should not be used for current return. Neutral and ground are tied together and earth grounded at the fuse/circuit breaker panel and will be a relatively similar voltage. However, since current and resistance are different on different conductors, you WILL have slightly different voltages on Neutral and Ground and this is not a problem unless it's caused by poor ground bonding. Thirdly, and most importantly for the discussion of audio gear is that most power systems in audio gear don't care if your Line and Neutral are backwards, aside from the safety aspect. A power transformer doesn't care what primary conductors your Line and Neutral inputs are attached to. The bridge rectifier on the output of the power transformer doesn't care either. The transformers are never marked for signal "polarity". Bridge rectifiers only have ~ ~ symbols for the AC inputs because at that point the AC is now completely differential in nature and not referenced to ground. A SMPS power supply doesn't care either since the Line and Neutral are rectified immediately and usually isolated from the rest of the circuit. If the article were confused and talking about mixing up Ground and Neutral, you have a recipe for disaster anyway. As for your wiring in NZ, a quick search shows a similar single phase approach but using 220VAC/50HZ. Yes, and like ward said, its very difficult to mess up hot/neutral(at least here in the US)even if ur not an electrician, just be very cautious of messing with the deadly lightning
|
|
|
Post by svart on Mar 19, 2015 12:49:56 GMT -6
Yes, and like ward said, its very difficult to mess up hot/neutral(at least here in the US)even if ur not an electrician, just be very cautious of messing with the deadly lightning You'd think it'd be hard to mess up hot and neutral.. When renovating my house after I bought it, I wanted to remove a ceiling fan, paint the ceiling and then put up a light fixture instead.. Turning the switch off on the wall should be sufficient to cut the power to the fan, no? When I reached up to grab the base of the unit, I got a tickle.. Turns out they wired the fan backwards and the chassis was connected to HOT. But about that switch.. Turns out they also hooked into an outlet on the wall and hooked up the hot and neutral backwards so the switch was on neutral. Looks like they sprayed the walls white and the wires were all white with paint, so you couldn't even tell which one was which, ground not connected, etc. Lets just say that the house was full of these kinds of issues. I'm pretty surprised it didn't burn down at some point in time before I fixed all the wiring.
|
|
|
Post by formatcyes on Mar 19, 2015 15:11:31 GMT -6
NZ uses the Aus Wiring rules. Multiple Earth Neutral. What this means is the Earth and neutral are tied together at the main switchboard ONLY but also at many points along the power distribution system. Roughly every 3rd power pole. DO NOT do this but what it means is Neutral and Earth are the same and are interchangeable if your mains cabling is not compromised (DO NOT DO THIS IT IS DONE FOR SAFETY REASONS IN-CASE YOUR CABLING IS OR GETS COMPROMISED) Earth and Neutral will be very close to 0 ohms resistance if its not you have a problem with you mains wiring probably a high resistance joint somewhere and a potential fire risk.
Neutral=earth and the active feed sweeps up and down either side +340v to -340v peak. When you turn your gear on it does not know where in the cycle it has been engaged nor does it care. By swapping the active and neutral you simply swap weather it see's a + or - BUT next time you switch on you will get a random value again between +340 and - 340 regardless of where the active and neutral are connected.
A/C Polarity needing to be right NO it won't make any difference.
Hope that make sense.
|
|
|
Post by formatcyes on Mar 19, 2015 15:18:28 GMT -6
Yes, and like ward said, its very difficult to mess up hot/neutral(at least here in the US)even if ur not an electrician, just be very cautious of messing with the deadly lightning You'd think it'd be hard to mess up hot and neutral.. When renovating my house after I bought it, I wanted to remove a ceiling fan, paint the ceiling and then put up a light fixture instead.. Turning the switch off on the wall should be sufficient to cut the power to the fan, no? When I reached up to grab the base of the unit, I got a tickle.. Turns out they wired the fan backwards and the chassis was connected to HOT. But about that switch.. Turns out they also hooked into an outlet on the wall and hooked up the hot and neutral backwards so the switch was on neutral. Looks like they sprayed the walls white and the wires were all white with paint, so you couldn't even tell which one was which, ground not connected, etc. Lets just say that the house was full of these kinds of issues. I'm pretty surprised it didn't burn down at some point in time before I fixed all the wiring. NEVER EVER do work on a fixture without turning off the breaker (unless is an ICU and you are not allowed to turn the feed off) Regardless of the switch position you will most likely still have an active feed looping thru the roof from fixture to fixture even when the switch is off your fixture still has power on the active side.
|
|
|
Post by keymod on Mar 19, 2015 16:05:58 GMT -6
Ok, lemme set some things straight in case of confusion.. In the USA we have a "polarized" plug/socket system for our AC power. This means the physical orientation of the plug into the socket, not the polarity of the power. The polarity of the plug/socket is so that the devices that have only a single fuse and/or power switch will always have the fuse/power switch on the "Line" side. Line is sometimes referred to as "Hot". USA: Line/Hot/Phase = Current source Neutral = Current return Ground = Safety ground Secondly, in the USA we also have "Neutral" and "Ground" conductors in our AC wiring. Neutral is the current return for the Line power. Ground is ONLY for safety and should not be used for current return. Neutral and ground are tied together and earth grounded at the fuse/circuit breaker panel and will be a relatively similar voltage. However, since current and resistance are different on different conductors, you WILL have slightly different voltages on Neutral and Ground and this is not a problem unless it's caused by poor ground bonding. Thirdly, and most importantly for the discussion of audio gear is that most power systems in audio gear don't care if your Line and Neutral are backwards, aside from the safety aspect. A power transformer doesn't care what primary conductors your Line and Neutral inputs are attached to. The bridge rectifier on the output of the power transformer doesn't care either. The transformers are never marked for signal "polarity". Bridge rectifiers only have ~ ~ symbols for the AC inputs because at that point the AC is now completely differential in nature and not referenced to ground. A SMPS power supply doesn't care either since the Line and Neutral are rectified immediately and usually isolated from the rest of the circuit. If the article were confused and talking about mixing up Ground and Neutral, you have a recipe for disaster anyway. As for your wiring in NZ, a quick search shows a similar single phase approach but using 220VAC/50HZ. It should be noted that the neutral and ground are ONLY tied together at the MAIN SERVICE DISCONNECT, which is not necessarily the fuse/breaker panel.
|
|
|
Post by svart on Mar 19, 2015 19:19:12 GMT -6
Ok, lemme set some things straight in case of confusion.. In the USA we have a "polarized" plug/socket system for our AC power. This means the physical orientation of the plug into the socket, not the polarity of the power. The polarity of the plug/socket is so that the devices that have only a single fuse and/or power switch will always have the fuse/power switch on the "Line" side. Line is sometimes referred to as "Hot". USA: Line/Hot/Phase = Current source Neutral = Current return Ground = Safety ground Secondly, in the USA we also have "Neutral" and "Ground" conductors in our AC wiring. Neutral is the current return for the Line power. Ground is ONLY for safety and should not be used for current return. Neutral and ground are tied together and earth grounded at the fuse/circuit breaker panel and will be a relatively similar voltage. However, since current and resistance are different on different conductors, you WILL have slightly different voltages on Neutral and Ground and this is not a problem unless it's caused by poor ground bonding. Thirdly, and most importantly for the discussion of audio gear is that most power systems in audio gear don't care if your Line and Neutral are backwards, aside from the safety aspect. A power transformer doesn't care what primary conductors your Line and Neutral inputs are attached to. The bridge rectifier on the output of the power transformer doesn't care either. The transformers are never marked for signal "polarity". Bridge rectifiers only have ~ ~ symbols for the AC inputs because at that point the AC is now completely differential in nature and not referenced to ground. A SMPS power supply doesn't care either since the Line and Neutral are rectified immediately and usually isolated from the rest of the circuit. If the article were confused and talking about mixing up Ground and Neutral, you have a recipe for disaster anyway. As for your wiring in NZ, a quick search shows a similar single phase approach but using 220VAC/50HZ. It should be noted that the neutral and ground are ONLY tied together at the MAIN SERVICE DISCONNECT, which is not necessarily the fuse/breaker panel.
Interesting. None of the dozen houses I've worked on for myself, family or friends built from the 60's to the 90's have been bonded at the meter, only in the breaker box like such: However, I do see the code that says "service disconnect". I suppose at some point the code was changed.
|
|
|
Post by keymod on Mar 19, 2015 20:01:04 GMT -6
The main disconnect is sometimes in the meter ( Meter Main ) but sometimes not. Could be in the first panel downstream from the meter, or it could be all by itself downstream from the meter.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
|
Post by ericn on Mar 20, 2015 12:46:57 GMT -6
Ward is right, but I'm still amazed how many outlets are wired wrong!
|
|