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Post by swurveman on Feb 4, 2015 8:35:33 GMT -6
I spoke with my friend who's a guitarist in an Los Angeles area band last night and he talked about this Brown Box. He said that he often gets higher voltage readings and that his amps were designed for 110 volts. I'm not an electronics guy, but I wondered if anybody had thoughts on the theory and application of this box. My friend swears it made his tone better. I just hope he doesn't get electrocuted. |
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Post by Ward on Feb 4, 2015 9:04:35 GMT -6
Thanks for the tip! I'm going to look into this one.
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Post by jimwilliams on Feb 4, 2015 10:43:03 GMT -6
An Autoformer will do the same thing, allow an adjustment of the line voltage. Van Halen used one back in the day to reduce the voltage to the Marshall head.
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 4, 2015 12:17:08 GMT -6
Eddie discovered a variac by accident when playing a show at a theatre, the outlets were hooked up to it to dimm stage lights that were mobile. He apparently turned his marshall to 11 and it was much quieter and better sounding than it had ever been, I believe the variac was set around 80vac? the rest is history, and a far as i understand this will allow your rig to last longer because of less heat in the tubes and electronics? I don't know for sure though?
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Post by donr on Feb 4, 2015 13:07:10 GMT -6
An Autoformer will do the same thing, allow an adjustment of the line voltage. Van Halen used one back in the day to reduce the voltage to the Marshall head. Wow. I'd assumed he was boosting the A/C line voltage. Marshall Amps always sound better in England or Europe, on 240v or 220v, compared to the US. Without fail. They're tauter, more muscular. More dynamic. Just reaffirmed it recently in Wales, UK. Come to think of it, tea kettles and clothes irons work better too. Maybe higher mains voltage just gets the job done. |
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Post by matt on Feb 4, 2015 13:26:37 GMT -6
EVH has a long history of weaving stories around his tone. It is hard to determine exactly what he did in the early days. His use of a variac is not in doubt, but he has made contradictory statements about how he used it. Way back when, it was thought he boosted voltage 10-20%, which is a dangerous thing to do. Later he admitted that he was cutting voltage. Whatever he did, his original tone is considered iconic by many, including me.
This Brown Box thing looks interesting. I wonder if 10% is enough to really impact the amp. I want to hear one!
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 4, 2015 13:31:19 GMT -6
An Autoformer will do the same thing, allow an adjustment of the line voltage. Van Halen used one back in the day to reduce the voltage to the Marshall head. Wow. I'd assumed he was boosting the A/C line voltage. Marshall Amps always sound better in England or Europe, on 240v or 220v, compared to the US. Without fail. They're tauter, more muscular. More dynamic. Just reaffirmed it recently in Wales, UK. Come to think of it, tea kettles and clothes irons work better too. Maybe higher mains voltage just gets the job done. I'm the worlds crappiest guitar player, but i've played variac'd rigs, they tend to feel spongey in a very cool way, clean when you play light, braaahhhh when you nail it! in a very van halen esq sort of way, you have to turn everything wide open to 11 though, it's lots of starved power amp tube distortion, residing behind a clean string sound, not a lot of quick punch with 25w greenbacks in a 4x12, just a wall of slewy badass 8) My little 1964 silvertone 40w does the same thing at normal 110-20 voltage with every knob pinned, and a tele with a hot pickup, no pedals=bad as balls, but not TOO loud 8) yes matt, NEVER up the voltage for any reason unless you want to burn the amp and potentially your house down, tube microphones can kill you with their power, imagine what a tube guitar amp will do to you  |
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 4, 2015 13:38:27 GMT -6
An Autoformer will do the same thing, allow an adjustment of the line voltage. Van Halen used one back in the day to reduce the voltage to the Marshall head. Wow. I'd assumed he was boosting the A/C line voltage. Marshall Amps always sound better in England or Europe, on 240v or 220v, compared to the US. Without fail. They're tauter, more muscular. More dynamic. Just reaffirmed it recently in Wales, UK. Come to think of it, tea kettles and clothes irons work better too. Maybe higher mains voltage just gets the job done. Yes D, 220-40 is massively more efficient than 110-20, the only problem is instead of "shitting your pants" when you get hit by 110-20 in the US, you die getting hit by 220-40! I'm assuming they provide the full 220 on 2 legs of 110 which ratchets back the danger to "shit your pants" level if you on get hit by one leg. @smallbutfine or wiz can probably speak to this? To be clear, AC(alternating current) voltage has a +/- cycle that allows your muscles to release and let go, DC(direct current)voltage clinches your muscles tight and won't allow you to let go. The reason you hear people being thrown when they get zapped is because they grounded AC which can cause you to throw yourself away on the negative cycle. With DC you lock, sit and cook, tube amps are extremely beefy DC killing machines! I'm dead serious, be very careful!  |
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Post by donr on Feb 4, 2015 13:48:53 GMT -6
When BOC first toured Europe in the '70's I noticed production crews over there took proper grounding seriously. Not like here. Not so bad since guitars are wireless (Line6 G50, works like a champ) as is used to be.
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Post by Ward on Feb 4, 2015 15:00:30 GMT -6
EVH has a long history of weaving stories around his tone. It is hard to determine exactly what he did in the early days. His use of a variac is not in doubt, but he has made contradictory statements about how he used it. Way back when, it was thought he boosted voltage 10-20%, which is a dangerous thing to do. Later he admitted that he was cutting voltage. Whatever he did, his original tone is considered iconic by many, including me. This Brown Box thing looks interesting. I wonder if 10% is enough to really impact the amp. I want to hear one! Under-powering will do as much damage as over-powering, to sensitive tube/valve powered amplifiers. "Starved Voltage" was a popular concept from 1995-2005. It died off for a reason. |
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Post by wiz on Feb 4, 2015 16:12:00 GMT -6
Wow. I'd assumed he was boosting the A/C line voltage. Marshall Amps always sound better in England or Europe, on 240v or 220v, compared to the US. Without fail. They're tauter, more muscular. More dynamic. Just reaffirmed it recently in Wales, UK. Come to think of it, tea kettles and clothes irons work better too. Maybe higher mains voltage just gets the job done. Yes D, 220-40 is massively more efficient than 110-20, the only problem is instead of "shitting your pants" when you get hit by 110-20 in the US, you die getting hit by 220-40! I'm assuming they provide the full 220 on 2 legs of 110 which ratchets back the danger to "shit your pants" level if you on get hit by one leg. @smallbutfine or wiz can probably speak to this? To be clear, AC(alternating current) voltage has a +/- cycle that allows your muscles to release and let go, DC(direct current)voltage clinches your muscles tight and won't allow you to let go. The reason you hear people being thrown when they get zapped is because they grounded AC which can cause you to throw yourself away on the negative cycle. With DC you lock, sit and cook, tube amps are extremely beefy DC killing machines! I'm dead serious, be very careful! In Oz...... apart from when we wish to go home, we click our shoes..... AC power here is, 240 Volt 50Hz We have tree prong plugs. Active Neutral Earth Back when I was in the Airforce, and a calibration tech, gear was spec'd to operate within a 10% swing of the power. So if something was 1% accurate it had to maintain that spec across the power variance. We would use Variacs to test. I wish I had have thought to plug a tube amp in 8) I remember reading somewhere, that Neil Young (this is maybe crap) could hear the difference between 110 and 115 volts and would use a variac to get the sound he wants. You know, in home studio land.. power is probably the last area for companies to cash in, err I mean jump in 8) cheers Wiz |
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 4, 2015 17:41:17 GMT -6
EVH has a long history of weaving stories around his tone. It is hard to determine exactly what he did in the early days. His use of a variac is not in doubt, but he has made contradictory statements about how he used it. Way back when, it was thought he boosted voltage 10-20%, which is a dangerous thing to do. Later he admitted that he was cutting voltage. Whatever he did, his original tone is considered iconic by many, including me. This Brown Box thing looks interesting. I wonder if 10% is enough to really impact the amp. I want to hear one! , to sensitive tube/valve powered amplifiers. "Starved Voltage" was a popular concept from 1995-2005. It died off for a reason. Why? i don't think underpowering electronic components will hurt them, i'll leave the possibility for tubes? but i doubt it there also. Do you have a link to info on this? |
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 4, 2015 17:43:33 GMT -6
Yes D, 220-40 is massively more efficient than 110-20, the only problem is instead of "shitting your pants" when you get hit by 110-20 in the US, you die getting hit by 220-40! I'm assuming they provide the full 220 on 2 legs of 110 which ratchets back the danger to "shit your pants" level if you on get hit by one leg. @smallbutfine or wiz can probably speak to this? To be clear, AC(alternating current) voltage has a +/- cycle that allows your muscles to release and let go, DC(direct current)voltage clinches your muscles tight and won't allow you to let go. The reason you hear people being thrown when they get zapped is because they grounded AC which can cause you to throw yourself away on the negative cycle. With DC you lock, sit and cook, tube amps are extremely beefy DC killing machines! I'm dead serious, be very careful! In Oz...... apart from when we wish to go home, we click our shoes..... AC power here is, 240 Volt 50Hz We have tree prong plugs. Active Neutral Earth Back when I was in the Airforce, and a calibration tech, gear was spec'd to operate within a 10% swing of the power. So if something was 1% accurate it had to maintain that spec across the power variance. We would use Variacs to test. I wish I had have thought to plug a tube amp in 8) I remember reading somewhere, that Neil Young (this is maybe crap) could hear the difference between 110 and 115 volts and would use a variac to get the sound he wants. You know, in home studio land.. power is probably the last area for companies to cash in, err I mean jump in 8) cheers Wiz so then the legs being split into 2-120v's is wrong, 240 on a single leg will kill violators dead! be careful wiz! |
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Post by wiz on Feb 4, 2015 18:08:29 GMT -6
Yeah, I have had my fair share of abuse... 8)
Once, it sent me across the room....
it feels like getting hit by a truck.. then... vacant....
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 4:06:54 GMT -6
I had for sure a dozen hefty zaps with 230V/50Hz.
I was pretty lucky and younger, therefore you see me writing here. We also get full dose on one leg.
Quite interestingly, older german gear (electrical units of ALL kind) has transformers awaiting still the old 220V on the primary winding, which has been raised from 1987 to 2003 to 230V to standardize in Europe (AFAIK UK went down from 240V to 230V).
In the long run, older electrical devices in Germany are overvolted slightly, while undervolted if produced directly for old UK.
People calculated, that this will reduce lifetime of the questioned units in Germany - theoretically. But in fact, tolerance is (and was) +-10%. It is a very mild statistical overvoltage, and the old voltage still in the tolerance range of the actual one.
Btw.... 230V hurt just as bad as 220V. No difference. I checked it. Don't do this at home, i am a professional (stuntman).
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Post by Ward on Feb 5, 2015 7:15:58 GMT -6
Under-powering will do as much damage as over-powering, to sensitive tube/valve powered amplifiers. "Starved Voltage" was a popular concept from 1995-2005. It died off for a reason. Why? i don't think underpowering electronic components will hurt them, i'll leave the possibility for tubes? but i doubt it there also. Do you have a link to info on this? According to several electronics technicians I have employed over the years, and one electrical engineer I went to college (Uni) with, starving voltage to vacuum tubes will burn them out faster. Obvs it seems like they will run cooler but then the mains his the power transformer that is designed to look for a certain current and make it up, regulate it, transform it into different batches to different places in the VT circuit. No part of the amp runs on 115/60hz or 230/50hz except the indicator bulbs. The plate voltage needs of most power tubes is 450 volts DC. Starving by 10% or more will (prepare to go off on a Star Wars tangent) create an imbalance in the force! And then there's the wear and tear on the dilithium crystals.. and damn it Jim, I'm giving her all she's got, I can't break the laws of physics. |
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Post by Ward on Feb 5, 2015 7:20:58 GMT -6
Yeah, I have had my fair share of abuse... 8) Once, it sent me across the room.... it feels like getting hit by a truck.. then... vacant.... cheers Wiz Me too. By our 110/115/117/120 (electric companies can't make up their minds) 60-cycle power. It isn't the voltage that kills you, it's the AMPERAGE. My incident was at the hands of a Vox valve/tube amplifier, whose caps I had forgotten to discharge before putting my hands in there. ZAP... out cold for 20 minutes, thrown across the room, and awoke as if I'd been rutting with a freight train. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 19:35:20 GMT -6
Actually, voltage can kill you as well as electrical current. 10mA can already make your grip paralyzed, so you might not be able to get away from the source, *regardless* if AC or DC. Currents as low as 30-50mA are already potentially lethal, can paralyze breathing muscles or lead to ventricular fibrillation if it lasts longer than a second (AC).
Voltage above roughly 65V is already also considered potentially dangerous, even if it mostly is not deadly, there is a shock (obviously). Again, it depends how long you are connected, frequency and what current flows meanwhile. Add a heart weakness or disease, maybe undiagnosed, and things look worse. High voltages cause burn marks along the way in addition to the shock. Think of tubes and higher...
Sure, there are people who survived a lightning struck with quite some kV, but this doesn't mean 90 or 110V are harmless per se... :-)
For sure it definitely feels different, if you touch phantom power, US mains or EU mains. :-D
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 19:57:48 GMT -6
Btw. Ward, most of the shock impact you had with your cap incident came from the voltage, not the amperage. Think of hitting your head in such a situation. Charged caps in units that seem safe because not connected to mains are probably the source of the most painful zaps one comes across while servicing or building gear IMO....and yes, it hurts big time....ouch. |
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Post by donr on Feb 6, 2015 11:34:24 GMT -6
Once, when I was about 6 yrs old, I watched my dad fly about 3 feet backward when he was adjusting the trim pots on our first b+w console TV with a screwdriver from the back, using a mirror to watch the screen as he did it. Weirdest thing I'd seen to that point. Luckily, he was otherwise ok. He's still alive at 91. He said something about getting shocked from the flyback transformer.  |
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Post by Ward on Feb 7, 2015 13:21:09 GMT -6
OUCH!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 18:44:24 GMT -6
:DHahaha, yes, i have seen this more than one time in my childhood!
TV "repair", the infamous Zeilentrafo (flyback transformer) that can be adjusted to re-focus the CRTs picture (sharpness). Did it myself quite a few times on blurry computer monitors...if you exactly know, what you are doing, it saved quite a few poor students from purchasing a new monitor, while they were low on cash.
You have to have the CRT running for adjustment, and if you slip off with the screwdriver and touch high voltage it zaps big time! Highly dangerous. But well, as i said, don't do this at home, it's kamikaze electronics. Literally sometimes.
Nowadays - who uses a CRT still, obsolete...just LCD psu exchange, relatively harmless...
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Post by Ward on Feb 8, 2015 11:20:21 GMT -6
My LCD needs new tubes. It just doesn't sound the same without tubes.
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Post by donr on Feb 8, 2015 11:25:54 GMT -6
My LCD needs new tubes. It just doesn't sound the same without tubes. It doesn't look the same, either. Tube TV's are warmer. I remember TV's with tubes. There was a boatload of them in a TV chassis. Drugstores and other businesses had a tube tester atop a cabinet with replacements. There were tubes in car radios. They'd take time to 'warm up' when you turned them on. They hummed. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 8, 2015 14:41:34 GMT -6
My LCD needs new tubes. It just doesn't sound the same without tubes. It doesn't look the same, either. Tube TV's are warmer. I remember TV's with tubes. There was a boatload of them in a TV chassis. Drugstores and other businesses had a tube tester atop a cabinet with replacements. There were tubes in car radios. They'd take time to 'warm up' when you turned them on. They hummed. i missed the tubes in the car radio thing, could you imagine how many vf14 U47 tubes you could have bought for about $1 each! Selling a couple hundred of those today would be enough to retire on. Oh hot tub time machine, where art thou? How about a 59 les paul in about 1970, "what? this old thing? just take it, i'm getting a new one" lol |
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