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Post by sozocaps on Jan 13, 2015 19:22:58 GMT -6
I'm about to plan the wiring of my patchbays but I want to ask if anyone has any workflow tips and suggestions. Should I go half normal, full normal, on what, headphone mixes, summing, outs at the top ins on the bottom etc... I was NOT planning on putting my MIC fees through it only post preamp and DA/AD converters attached for tracking with comp eq etc and stemming out for mixing etc uless it is totally useful 75% of the time or more because my snakes are all wired already but that can change if necessary.
Any suggestions on workflow etc?
I have 2 96pt TT Solder-type Patchbay's from Redco.
Thanks!
John
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 13, 2015 21:58:03 GMT -6
Yes, top out/bottom in, i'd normalize as much as possible, the bays i'm building are 100% dsub25 on the backside, the "logic" of patchbays is usually predicated on the gear you use, can you give us more info about your rig? That may help a little as far as a direction. No matter the ultimate plan, it's a great decision to go this route, it makes it Waaaay easier to be "creatively uninterrupted" style IMO. check this also www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb03/articles/studioinstallation0203.asp Hope this helps a little. |
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Post by sozocaps on Jan 13, 2015 23:04:12 GMT -6
On the hardware side...
16x's AD/DA Apogee Track 2 + 2 DAC output card, Apogee Mini Dac for monitoring, RME RayDat, Cubase.. So 18 In 20 out total. I track lots o drums etc... 16 class A external preamps Heritage GR, VP28 , Avalon etc... , 4 1176 FET, 5043, Lex 91 , GR-EQ-2NV, .. more hardware in the near future.
The basic need is hardware for tracking when needed and stemming out tracks when mixing if desired.
Thanks Guys!
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Post by wiz on Jan 13, 2015 23:14:14 GMT -6
I literally just spent a couple of days, staring at my gear, planning out the zillion ways to re organise things...
my advice..do a lot of pen and paper before moving one bit of gear..... and sleep on it a couple of times.
cheers
Wiz
PS i love my SAMSON S PATCH ... for this, I can select Norm, Half Norm, and Direct from the front panel.
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Post by sozocaps on Jan 13, 2015 23:28:19 GMT -6
I think the thing I'm not sure of is normal or half normal where and when I'll use a split signal after the preamp. Can I record dry and compressed at the same time? Won't it voltage divide the signal , effect impedance etc... ?
Thanks , I am in the planning stage so I will give it lots of planning.
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Post by Randge on Jan 13, 2015 23:53:24 GMT -6
At least full normal all of the channels that are the same every time (like your drum kit) and cut down on spaghetti. Save your dough for more gear and not shelling out for tt cables as much.
R
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jan 14, 2015 8:27:06 GMT -6
I don't have any of my outboard Normalled, just the DAs and ADs! Used TT bays are cheap so I say bring every Jack in the studio to the Bays and leave space for expansion!
A bay or 2 dedicated to simple fixes splitters, polarity reversal and pads can be a life saver.
If I'm going to normall it's full, I like knowing that if I plug into either jack the switch is on!
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Post by svart on Jan 14, 2015 9:53:28 GMT -6
I only have my preamp patchbay half normalled. I have it set to go from the input patchbay (XLR/TRS combos) to the preamp patchbay with the half normal going to the mixer's preamps.
If I plug a preamp into the "preamp patchbay" it cuts the signal to the mixer preamps, and then I patch the output of the preamp to the "line in" of the SSL alphalink.
that way I can patch any input to any preamp and any preamp to any effects then to any input of the A/D box.
For the insert patchbay, I have it half normalled as well, but configured so that if nothing is plugged, the insert signal simply loops back to the mixer. If I plug something, the "output" from the insert simply parallels, but the "input" jack cuts the insert signal and allows me to input the effected signal.
Make sense?
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Post by lolo on Apr 7, 2015 5:42:21 GMT -6
About to install my first patchbay. Driving me crazy crawling in behind the rack during tracking and mixtime changing connections etc.... And as im getting more outboard its gonna get worse. Got my head spinning a bit here
Trying to get my songwriter head around this. :-)
So is it best to connect all interface i/o's, all preamps and outboard gear, separate A/D and D/A to the patchbay? Trying to figure all this out now.
Any tips?
Also when tracking, do you connect your mics and di's straight to the patchbay? Doesnt sound right to me.
Any help will be appreciated
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Post by gouge on Apr 7, 2015 6:30:25 GMT -6
I found the only way I could get my head around this was to draw a diagram.
we really need to know your gear setup to help out. like, how many rooms? console? mix down gear etc.
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Post by lolo on Apr 7, 2015 7:27:25 GMT -6
yeah figured I need to draw something up here.
Not that complected setup though. Only a small project/writing studio. 1 Room. No console
Gear :
- Interface : RME UFX
- ADC : Ross Martin PCM4222
- DAC : Ross Martin Superbeast(if it ever arrives) , Dangerous Music Source
- Outboard. 2 x Capi V28's, Heritage 1073, Dizengoff D4, 2 x Chopshop EQ's, Capi 526 Comp, 2 x Warm Pultec's, 1176, Mammoth Cave Audio Deluxe
Find it very frustrating during tracking and mixing using different chains (using outboard). Changing cables behind the rack etc....
This is where I think the patchbay will make life alot easier
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 7, 2015 7:52:11 GMT -6
Bring all jacks on the back of ur gear to the bays except preamp inputs, make a separate panel with dual xlr/1/4" jacks for them, and bring the outputs to ur bays. Top row out, bottom in, normal anything that u use most of the time, u can always lift the normal by inserting a TT cable and route it where ever you want. As far as layout, it's up to you, just try to be logical and make it look sequentially like the face plates of the equipment you use.
It seems like a pain in the ass now but when you're done you're gonna love it!
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 7, 2015 7:56:03 GMT -6
Also if you're not sure you're going to keep a piece of gear you can always label things "compressor 1, compressor 2, EQ 1, EQ 2, so you won't have to change labels all the time as you change gear. Or just use letter and number id's entirely.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,976
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Post by ericn on Apr 7, 2015 8:17:31 GMT -6
Buy a real Patchbays ! TT or Military! Non of this Made in China TRS to TRS !
A real bay with proper grounding will take mics and phantom with little or no problem!
Checkout MR patchbay website!
Understand normalling and grounding before you start!
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 7, 2015 8:35:52 GMT -6
Bring all jacks on the back of ur gear to the bays except preamp inputs, make a separate panel with dual xlr/1/4" jacks for them, and bring the outputs to ur bays. Top row out, bottom in, normal anything that u use most of the time, u can always lift the normal by inserting a TT cable and route it where ever you want. As far as layout, it's up to you, just try to be logical and make it look sequentially like the face plates of the equipment you use. It seems like a pain in the ass now but when you're done you're gonna love it! Hey Tone or ericn, can you talk a bit about normalling? Right now I'm set up with 3 TRS bays, but I don't really understand how to normal stuff. This is how I'm set up. Bay A: Top Row - Insert Sends; Bottom Row - Insert Returns Bay B: Top Row - First few channels Console insert sends, then a bunch of outboard sends; Bottom Row - First few channels insert returns, then outboard returns Bay C: Top Row - Outboard sends; Bottom Row: Outboard returns. Right now if I want my Locomotive 14B on a vocal at channel 18 of my console, I patch: A18 Top > C6 Bottom; C6 Top > A18 Bottom If it was normalled, I wouldn't have to patch anything right? I'd like to have my console set so certain channels always go to specific outboard, but have the ability to change if needed. |
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Post by LesC on Apr 7, 2015 8:53:40 GMT -6
yeah figured I need to draw something up here. Not that complected setup though. Only a small project/writing studio. 1 Room. No console Gear : - Interface : RME UFX - ADC : Ross Martin PCM4222 - DAC : Ross Martin Superbeast(if it ever arrives) , Dangerous Music Source - Outboard. 2 x Capi V28's, Heritage 1073, Dizengoff D4, 2 x Chopshop EQ's, Capi 526 Comp, 2 x Warm Pultec's, 1176, Mammoth Cave Audio Deluxe Find it very frustrating during tracking and mixing using different chains (using outboard). Changing cables behind the rack etc.... This is where I think the patchbay will make life alot easier Lolo, your setup is very similar to mine in terms of complexity. Originally, I half-normalled everything and ended up with 4 patchbays. Eventually I followed a more logical approach, drew myself diagrams of every scenario I could think of for recording vocals, guitars, bass, keyboards, etc. After digesting this for a while, I realized there were a lot of connections that never changed in the various scenarios, so I was able to reduce down to 3 patchbays. This continued iteratively over the years, so that now I'm down to 1 patchbay and I can do absolutely anything that I want to do. Also, I take advantage of any equipment that has I/O on the front, such as the UFX, so I patch directly to it, no need to bring those inputs to the patchbay. I don't bring preamp mic inputs to the patchbay, since I only use one mic for vocals through one side of the Heritage DMA73. I'm considering using a second mic, I would just put that through the other side of the preamp, no cabling changes required. If I ever get more mics, or if I ever decide to use any of my other preamps for vocals, I would consider patching them at that point. I agree with ericn's advice, I've always used the cheap, crappy, made-in-China TRS-to-TRS patchbays and always had lots of problems. A few years ago, I switched to the Samson S-Patch Plus, which is less cheap but still TRS-to-TRS and I've had great luck with it so far. |
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Post by Randge on Apr 7, 2015 9:06:02 GMT -6
Buy a real Patchbays ! TT or Military! Non of this Made in China TRS to TRS ! A real bay with proper grounding will take mics and phantom with little or no problem! Checkout MR patchbay website! Understand normalling and grounding before you start! I couldn't agree more, Eric. 3 Switchcraft 9625's here. Everything is normalled straight down. So, its tie lines 1st row, preamps 2nd row, preamps out 3rd row, input section. Under that is outboard gear in and the last row is outboard out. That config keeps everything very neat and tidy. Switchcraft has it down with the labeling as well. Attachment DeletedAttachment Deleted |
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Post by LesC on Apr 7, 2015 9:16:27 GMT -6
Bring all jacks on the back of ur gear to the bays except preamp inputs, make a separate panel with dual xlr/1/4" jacks for them, and bring the outputs to ur bays. Top row out, bottom in, normal anything that u use most of the time, u can always lift the normal by inserting a TT cable and route it where ever you want. As far as layout, it's up to you, just try to be logical and make it look sequentially like the face plates of the equipment you use. It seems like a pain in the ass now but when you're done you're gonna love it! Hey Tone or ericn, can you talk a bit about normalling? Right now I'm set up with 3 TRS bays, but I don't really understand how to normal stuff. This is how I'm set up. Bay A: Top Row - Insert Sends; Bottom Row - Insert Returns Bay B: Top Row - First few channels Console insert sends, then a bunch of outboard sends; Bottom Row - First few channels insert returns, then outboard returns Bay C: Top Row - Outboard sends; Bottom Row: Outboard returns. Right now if I want my Locomotive 14B on a vocal at channel 18 of my console, I patch: A18 Top > C6 Bottom; C6 Top > A18 Bottom If it was normalled, I wouldn't have to patch anything right? I'd like to have my console set so certain channels always go to specific outboard, but have the ability to change if needed. Using your example, cable console channel 18 send to A18 Top (as you've done I think). Then cable A18 Bottom to Locomotive 14B input. These should be half-normalled, which means that with no patch cable there is a direct connection between the two. If you patch from A18 Top to another input device, then signal from the console will continue to flow to the Locomotive as well as the other device. If you patch from another output device to A18 Bottom, then signal will flow from the other device to the Locomotive, but the signal from the console will be interrupted. Finally, you can patch from A18 Top to another input device and from a different output device to A18 Bottom, similar to what you do now. Similarly, you can cable the Locomotive output to the top of another patchbay connection (same or different patchbay), and cable the bottom of that patchbay connection to console channel 18 return. So with no patch cables, console channel 18 send/return defaults to the Locomotive. If you do exactly the same cabling with a full-normalled connection, then inserting a patch cable top OR bottom interrupts the normal flow. So whether you want half-normalled or full-normalled depends if you want to be able to split a particular output to multiple inputs. That's probably as clear as mud, but I don't know how to quickly get a diagram displayed here. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 7, 2015 9:40:00 GMT -6
1/2 Normall - 1 Jack normally top when plugged into switches out default path that is normally run to the jack bellow it.
Full Normall - either top or bottom breaks the default routing when plugged into
I use full Normalls for things like inserts, and tape sends and returns and mic inputs.
With a 28 inline mono and 4 inline stereo inputs on the Status plus 12 busses single path is to fluid for me to have any outboard normalled. All my outboard is simply located as straight front to back, I also have a bay with Mults and phase reverses and ground lifts.. I would Like to add some simple isolation transformers and some -10 to +4 and vise versa as well as other trouble shooting adapters.
As much as I HATE I MEAN HATE DSUBS FOR AUDIO!
I have adapted the Tascam DSub standard for bundleing connections and cables, DR Bill is right ELCO is far superior, but DSUB is far more popular and there are 2 standards of witch Tascam seams the most common.
When looking at patchbays Look at the Jacks, The Design used in ADC, Bittree M&M Switchcraft ect are a simple foolproof design that's been used since the insertion of the Telephone and were designed for constant plugging and unplugging and are constructed of quality brass.
The Jacks found in $99 Generic Made in China bays are designed for use on the back of gear and limited plugging and unplugging and will fail at some point with heavy use
If your afraid of soldering try a bay with a punch panel, pretty simple, buy some cables cut them in half strip the outer sheath and punch them in with a manual punch tool and Hammer..
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Post by lolo on Apr 7, 2015 10:06:51 GMT -6
Thanks fellas. Time to sit down and plan this out
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 7, 2015 11:39:19 GMT -6
Buy a real Patchbays ! TT or Military! Non of this Made in China TRS to TRS ! A real bay with proper grounding will take mics and phantom with little or no problem! Checkout MR patchbay website! Understand normalling and grounding before you start! I couldn't agree more, Eric. 3 Switchcraft 9625's here. Everything is normalled straight down. So, its tie lines 1st row, preamps 2nd row, preamps out 3rd row, input section. Under that is outboard gear in and the last row is outboard out. That config keeps everything very neat and tidy. Switchcraft has it down with the labeling as well. View AttachmentView AttachmentLove those Switchcrafts! I wish I could of afforded 15 of them ! Now I just need to find somebody who can do some quality affordable custom metal work so I can mount the bays in the empty space in the Status! |
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 7, 2015 11:41:00 GMT -6
I couldn't agree more, Eric. 3 Switchcraft 9625's here. Everything is normalled straight down. So, its tie lines 1st row, preamps 2nd row, preamps out 3rd row, input section. Under that is outboard gear in and the last row is outboard out. That config keeps everything very neat and tidy. Switchcraft has it down with the labeling as well. Love those Switchcrafts! I wish I could of afforded 15 of them ! Now I just need to find somebody who can do some quality affordable custom metal work so I can mount the bays in the empty space in the Status! dude....really? let me know what you need E 8) |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 7, 2015 11:46:04 GMT -6
Love those Switchcrafts! I wish I could of afforded 15 of them ! Now I just need to find somebody who can do some quality affordable custom metal work so I can mount the bays in the empty space in the Status! dude....really? let me know what you need E 8) Will do some time soon Bro in the middle of 2 PT installs and trouble shooting a f'ed up Media Composer! My rant of the day ! Apple why no more OSX install disks? And Why when I can instantly download from iTunes after purchase but it takes all FING day to get a OSX lic in my App Store Acct. |
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