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Post by mrholmes on Jan 3, 2015 12:21:36 GMT -6
Its always the same.
A friend of mine asked me to mix for him only ITB becasue he wants to have the chance to do changes later.
I advised him that we use my small hybrid setup - but no.
Everything is fine till the moment I want to tune the low end Kick and Base manly.
With the hybrid setup I am done in about 20 minutes and there is nice low end ribbon between the speakers.
ITB is like I am going crazy.
I have to cut out low end like hell and it still sounds like BS.
No ribbon nor a good feeling.
In short I never get the low end right when mixing ITB.
And If I get it right I cant remember why because I am at the end of my nerves.
Any hint idea.... r u doing something different???
PS:
I mixed many years ITB till the day I had the pleasure to mix in a full analog studio.
Never went back..... since then I do struggle mixing ITB.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 3, 2015 12:32:26 GMT -6
id just round trip, or dump the bass and kick track OTB and not say anything, if he wants to remix it himself, let him suffer the children spiderman! if you remix it you know what you did.
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 3, 2015 12:50:39 GMT -6
Good one!!!
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Post by sozocaps on Jan 3, 2015 14:54:02 GMT -6
I HATE the bottom ITB... ITB is flat to DC... that's very difficult to get rid of.
I would do the standard -5db low shelf on the bass at 125 hz before you hit any plugs etc...
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 3, 2015 15:18:54 GMT -6
Its something I cant explain but it does sound different (to my taste better).
I did use some outboard and the console and BANG I was there.
Less than half the time I spent before with plug ins.
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Post by sozocaps on Jan 3, 2015 15:28:04 GMT -6
ITB is better "if" you track right
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 3, 2015 15:36:27 GMT -6
ITB is better "if" you track right Maybe yes if there was good gear in tracking makes an influence I guess. But I have the same impression like you I have to cut out huge amounts of low end ITB. Its very often the same procedure. |
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Post by sozocaps on Jan 3, 2015 16:11:11 GMT -6
Do you high pass or low shelf ? Any tips for ITB since you like it so much hehe ?
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 3, 2015 16:43:17 GMT -6
Do you high pass or low shelf ? Any tips for ITB since you like it so much hehe ? Depends I do both. I would give up my OTB gear if I could make it happen ITB. But I am not one of those gifted ITB experts. Since I mixed the first time OTB I was impressed how natural it worked out. |
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Post by RicFoxx on Jan 3, 2015 17:06:57 GMT -6
ITB lowend is the only thing in ITB sound wise I don't mind. High pass!!!
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 3, 2015 21:13:10 GMT -6
ITB lowend is the only thing in ITB sound wise I don't mind. High pass!!! I just can repeat myself I do think I have to work harder ITB to get it right. Best advise is to use some outboard without telling the client. |
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Post by Randge on Jan 3, 2015 21:52:29 GMT -6
Is this a problem from the bass itself or the two mix?
R
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 3, 2015 22:03:22 GMT -6
Is this a problem from the bass itself or the two mix? R Its everytime I mix ITB it could be also workflow matter. Touching real faders makes leveling more easy. |
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Post by Randge on Jan 4, 2015 0:07:16 GMT -6
I am ITB about 1/2 the time (when budgets are tight and I gotta work quick) but have a Tango Smart console here with faders. I have had issues mixing bass content in Protools before but never Nuendo/Cubase with or without faders.
R.
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Post by henge on Jan 4, 2015 7:56:56 GMT -6
Take a round trip to your outboard and let it do the heavy lifting! I've been having to do this lately on poorly recorded bass tracks and hardware saves my ass!
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Post by jimwilliams on Jan 4, 2015 10:35:32 GMT -6
I HATE the bottom ITB... ITB is flat to DC... that's very difficult to get rid of. I would do the standard -5db low shelf on the bass at 125 hz before you hit any plugs etc... My analog mix path does DC or 2 hz flat to remove all the phase shift. I don't have low end mixing problems here. Most of the analog tracking signal path is also direct coupled. ITB mixing must be like pushing down ping pong balls into a bucket of water with your thumb. |
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Post by donr on Jan 4, 2015 11:30:34 GMT -6
I HATE the bottom ITB... ITB is flat to DC... that's very difficult to get rid of. I would do the standard -5db low shelf on the bass at 125 hz before you hit any plugs etc... My analog mix path does DC or 2 hz flat to remove all the phase shift. I don't have low end mixing problems here. Most of the analog tracking signal path is also direct coupled. ITB mixing must be like pushing down ping pong balls into a bucket of water with your thumb. It's like painting a wall with a toothbrush. But with total recall.  |
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 4, 2015 11:53:15 GMT -6
I am ITB about 1/2 the time (when budgets are tight and I gotta work quick) but have a Tango Smart console here with faders. I have had issues mixing bass content in Protools before but never Nuendo/Cubase with or without faders. R. I think I have found what the problem is! I did it in Logic and if a fader is low down the db steps are very RAW its 2 db steps. So I used a Sonalsksis Free G in those channels. Apple should change this habit it makes leveling near impossible. Free G is a nice digital fader it should be in every DAWs-Mixer integrated by default www.sonalksis.com/freeg.htm |
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Post by RicFoxx on Jan 4, 2015 13:18:26 GMT -6
What are your levels on master output in logic??? Are you making sure Bass and Kick are not masking each other? Is there sub sonic mess that you can't hear crowding your mix. Are other instruments that have not been filtered crowding your lowend? The problem is not Logic X just pull up a great Kick sample and bass sample and enjoy the magic of ITB lowend. People can tend to mix samples but not real instruments because foundational issues come into play!
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Post by RicFoxx on Jan 4, 2015 13:43:19 GMT -6
I am ITB about 1/2 the time (when budgets are tight and I gotta work quick) but have a Tango Smart console here with faders. I have had issues mixing bass content in Protools before but never Nuendo/Cubase with or without faders. R. I think I have found what the problem is! I did it in Logic and if a fader is low down the db steps are very RAW its 2 db steps. So I used a Sonalsksis Free G in those channels. Apple should change this habit it makes leveling near impossible. Free G is a nice digital fader it should be in every DAWs-Mixer integrated by default www.sonalksis.com/freeg.htmI believe you can shift click in Logic for small movements. If your faders are that low down then maybe the source is too hot and if your listening environment is not good you could have unknown distortion/clipping. Practice good input levels...-16db to -12db with peaks no more than -8. Gainstaging at every level is important! Also, remember your outboard gear has a lot more headroom than your DAW. In the DAW 0 means 0 and clipping is almost always happening when when hitting the Buss that hard. . Here is a cool short read... Analog vs. Digital Levels — the dBFS Scale Digital audio levels are measured differently than analog audio levels. Yes, yet another and different dB system is used. The dB system in digital audio starts at the top and defines the loudest sound level that is to be digitized. This top or full scale view of the audio levels results in a full scale or "FS" system of dB measurement. A 0 dBFS measurement unit is to be the highest audio level. Assuming this is to be at the highest audio level before clipping occurs, this corresponds to an analog level of 24 dBu. Therefore, 4 dBu (dBu =dBv) is the same as - 20 dBFS or 0 VU. While this is generally accepted as the range of digital audio, it is not a hard standard. When digital audio values are converted back to analog, some digital audio equipment provides level selections to shift the analog output levels of 0 VU to -18 dBFS or -14 dBFS. Lowering the dBFS relationship increases the audio sound levels output from the D/A converter.   |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 4, 2015 15:24:49 GMT -6
Is there more than one kick? More than one bass track? Are they out of phase? Sound good when you solo, but then lost when you UN solo? Just a thought. I found that using something like the slate VCC on neve adds punch that itb lacks.
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 4, 2015 18:15:50 GMT -6
Thanks for your help I know all this … gain-staging etc.
And my enviroment is treated by someone who is a Pro in it.
Just in case of that I learn something or it is simple and stupid my psyche that wants to hear a bad low end.
I will post a sample when I am back in the Studio.…
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 23:47:29 GMT -6
Try using VCC N on all your tracks and busses and hit it real hard. It definitely is doing something that reminds me a lot of my old gear.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 7, 2015 15:17:53 GMT -6
I am in agreement, when mixing very purely digital, without much or any analog gear, it is almost a requirement to get some sort of saturation going on. I usually do it on the master bus. But sometimes also on a track if it's too pokey or squeaky clean. Usually something like Waves NLS, Softube Saturation knob, Sonnox Inflator, Kramer Master Tape, Brainworx bx_XL, or some combination of these. Yes, a summing mixer can quickly get in this direction in my experience also.
Also, when checking the low end, it can help to crank the monitors up quite loud. I like to mix at lower volumes, but I find a good loud playback really tells the truth on if I've put way too much bass in or not. This is an important check because I am constantly boosting bass on things, trying to get this massive size, and it's a little too easy to go overboard if not careful. This is a trick I just got the hang of, but it seems important.
UAD or Little Labs VOG is a cool bass tool I've started using a bit also. Or you can just do a resonant (boosted corner frequency) bass cut filter in Pro Q2 or whatever your digital parametric is. You can get a fat bottom, but at different frequencies on different tracks so they don't fight, and a cleanly filtered sub frequency. It can help with bigness but without overload, sort of a this-for-that thing, a trade off. Sometimes you want those subs though so I'll use a Pultec low shelf boost or whatever.
I've just started using Maag EQ4 (plugin) on the master also, and it's good for tucking in the subs, but adding a little 40 Hz or 160 Hz if you need it. Very clean EQ. Good air band too. A little goes a long way with the .5 dB boosts or cuts. A Pultec (UAD, Waves) or Sontec (IK) or any other good mastering EQ like PSP Neon can do similar useful things. These are some of my favorites for shaping bass.
two cents, YMMV, good luck
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