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Post by svart on Dec 31, 2014 13:28:31 GMT -6
Absorption is frequency specific. We really need more information about what frequency band the issues are in.
Foam isn't good for much but high frequencies.
Bass traps don't have enough surface area to do much for high frequencies.
Broadband absorption usually falls off too much in the low end.
There are some good rules of thumb for most of these, but it takes careful analysis to fix all of the issues. Waterfall plots are commonplace in most acoustical engineer's analysis because they tell you a lot about what is going on, and especially a lot about stuff we don't hear very well.
Small rooms can be pains in the ass just like a very large room can. Very fast echos/reverbs can be indistinguishable from the primary source, but can wreck frequency and phase response.
Seeing a pic of your room, I worry about those sloped ceilings. You have a patchwork of foam on the walls, but it's not in any discernible logical location... Plus, it's foam.
I would remove the foam and certainly do the "mirror" trick that someone else mentioned if you can, and replace with proper rockwool broadband absorbers... i would also do a cloud as was also mentioned.
Also, I would either try moving the desk out even further from the wall, or see if adding a bunch of broadband rockwool absorption on the wall helps.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 31, 2014 14:08:44 GMT -6
there is software on the web that will do a room analysis for you, which will give you some better data. I went with the bass traps in the corners and 3-4 inch panels as an inexpensive compromise, but I still typically close mike and use low volume when monitoring :why excite the room ?
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Post by jsteiger on Dec 31, 2014 15:25:44 GMT -6
I would recommend talking to Jeff Hedback. He works remotely and is very reasonable. It would a be a smart way to spend a few hundy. www.hedbackdesignedacoustics.com/ |
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Post by M57 on Dec 31, 2014 19:48:12 GMT -6
Absorption is frequency specific. We really need more information about what frequency band the issues are in. Foam isn't good for much but high frequencies. Bass traps don't have enough surface area to do much for high frequencies. Broadband absorption usually falls off too much in the low end. Based on all the research I'm doing in preparing to put my studio together, I agree with everything svart has stated, but the three above statements stand out in my mind. The foam is likely doing very little for you; in a room that size, you probably need all the absorption you can get across all frequencies. Yes, broadband panels will fall off in the low end, but that might not be an issue considering how close your reflection points are. Besides, that's what the bass traps are for - and they have different placement requirements. Because I'll be recording mostly in the same space that I'm mixing in, and because at this point diffusers aren't in the budget, I'm going with the approach that deadening the room is easier than tuning it. I plan to start out as dead as possible (which no doubt will not be dead enough) and then move things around to make the room and my mixing position sound as good as I can. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 31, 2014 20:02:22 GMT -6
I would recommend talking to Jeff Hedback. He works remotely and is very reasonable. It would a be a smart way to spend a few hundy. www.hedbackdesignedacoustics.com/We have a winner! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 31, 2014 20:06:27 GMT -6
Absorption is frequency specific. We really need more information about what frequency band the issues are in. Foam isn't good for much but high frequencies. Bass traps don't have enough surface area to do much for high frequencies. Broadband absorption usually falls off too much in the low end. Based on all the research I'm doing in preparing to put my studio together, I agree with everything svart has stated, but the three above statements stand out in my mind. The foam is likely doing very little for you; in a room that size, you probably need all the absorption you can get across all frequencies. Yes, broadband panels will fall off in the low end, but that's shouldn't be an issue considering how close your reflection points are. Besides, that's what the bass traps are for, and we know where to put them. Because I'll be recording mostly in the same space that I'm mixing in, and because at this point diffusers aren't in the budget, I'm going with the approach that deadening the room is easier than tuning it. I plan to start out as dead as possible (which will likely not be dead enough) and then move things around to make the room sound as good as I can. The auralex def gets rid of most of the flutter echo, but it would be nice to get some nice custom absorbers to mount instead. cowboycoalminer has been in there - he can attest that at least the recording area is dead. |
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Post by svart on Dec 31, 2014 20:15:48 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 31, 2014 21:18:35 GMT -6
I used mineral board for most of mine in the room, but those hooks look great. How do they work on it?
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Post by ben on Jan 1, 2015 2:11:11 GMT -6
Because I'll be recording mostly in the same space that I'm mixing in, and because at this point diffusers aren't in the budget, I'm going with the approach that deadening the room is easier than tuning it. I plan to start out as dead as possible (which will likely not be dead enough) and then move things around to make the room sound as good as I can. I did that once, years back. I hated it. Too dead. If you're going to DIY it, get a decent measurement mic and a free copy of Room EQ Wizard. Measure your room with no treatment (or minimal), ID the frequencies and problem areas and then put up the treatment as needed. You may find you don't need nearly as much treatment as you think. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2015 2:18:17 GMT -6
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Post by RicFoxx on Jan 1, 2015 8:12:53 GMT -6
Because I'll be recording mostly in the same space that I'm mixing in, and because at this point diffusers aren't in the budget, I'm going with the approach that deadening the room is easier than tuning it. I plan to start out as dead as possible (which will likely not be dead enough) and then move things around to make the room sound as good as I can. I did that once, years back. I hated it. Too dead. If you're going to DIY it, get a decent measurement mic and a free copy of Room EQ Wizard. Measure your room with no treatment (or minimal), ID the frequencies and problem areas and then put up the treatment as needed. You may find you don't need nearly as much treatment as you think. I agree with Ben...If you want an uninspiring and weird to the brain room then make it dead. You can pick up a Behringer measurement mic for next to nothing and Room EQ Wizard is free. |
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Post by M57 on Jan 1, 2015 9:10:35 GMT -6
Because I'll be recording mostly in the same space that I'm mixing in, and because at this point diffusers aren't in the budget, I'm going with the approach that deadening the room is easier than tuning it. I plan to start out as dead as possible (which will likely not be dead enough) and then move things around to make the room sound as good as I can. I did that once, years back. I hated it. Too dead. If you're going to DIY it, get a decent measurement mic and a free copy of Room EQ Wizard. Measure your room with no treatment (or minimal), ID the frequencies and problem areas and then put up the treatment as needed. You may find you don't need nearly as much treatment as you think. Would love to do this. Room EQ is PC, right? Is there a Mac equivalent (i.e. free)? Remember, I'm recording in the same room.. I've been advised that while you can make a room (too) dead, you can always add reverb sauce, whereas live rooms are very tricky to tame. |
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Post by M57 on Jan 1, 2015 10:00:11 GMT -6
Here's where I'm at now.. The floor is in.. I have yet to order fabric for the traps, but you can see one in the left hand corner behind the desk with a sheet on it so you can see how the 2'x4'x4" bass traps fit. As you can imagine, the room is quite live. I know I'm going to need a lot of absorption.. ![]()  The plan is to put at least three of the bass traps in the corners - and hopefully not need super chunks. That will leave me with a few to use as movable gobos. Regardless, I'm much more worried about the 45 degree wall. I plan to cover it with at least three 2x4x2" panels. and then one on the ceiling, and a few on the l/r walls. And a pic of the larger space..  Notice I have a similar 45 degree wall space to deal with. I have no plans for this wall/ceiling ..yet. |
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Post by ben on Jan 1, 2015 10:19:04 GMT -6
I'd start with corners and reflection points first, particularly if you're using DIY bass traps. Use the mirror method. One on each side of the mix position, 3-4 on the angled wall, maybe 3 on the ceiling (or diffusers may be more appropriate). Good idea reserving some for gobos. You're going to need an acoustically versatile room for what you're doing. Still, making the room too dead is not ideal either. It will suck the life out of that piano, and your mixes won't translate well.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 1, 2015 11:20:10 GMT -6
Here's where I'm at now.. The floor is in.. I have yet to order fabric for the traps, but you can see one in the left hand corner behind the desk with a sheet on it so you can see how the 2'x4'x4" bass traps fit. As you can imagine, the room is quite live. I know I'm going to need a lot of absorption.. ![]() The plan is to put at least three of the bass traps in the corners - and hopefully not need super chunks. That will leave me with a few to use as movable gobos. Regardless, I'm much more worried about the 45 degree wall. I plan to cover it with at least three 2x4x2" panels. and then one on the ceiling, and a few on the l/r walls. And a pic of the larger space.. Notice I have a similar 45 degree wall space to deal with. I have no plans for this wall/ceiling ..yet. JMO That room you have there can sound very good, 1st thing i'd do is move the monitoring/desk area faced and centered up against that window and back as far as you can from it, that downward facing roof pitch is killing you straight off where it is now, you'd have to put 4" of roxul to get that even close to reasonable sounding at that proximity, and the stereo image is not going to happen there ime. I'd kill the center ceiling, and use the mirror trick on sidewalls/roof pithes/floor from your ears forward, put some thick bass traps in areas above your baseboard heat in the corners where bass will collect, and you'll be very close, those wood floors can make a nice improvement in a room, down the road consider diffusion, and wainscot wood covering the walls, that combo usually sounds great! YOU HAVE TO KILL THE CENTER CEILING, the flutter/standing waves alone between the ceiling and the floor is yuck, especially with the pitches reflecting everything back toward the center of the room. IME nothing sounds worse to my ears than drywall and carpet(the 2 things i've had most of my life lol) so you're 1 for 2 on that already, good luck on what is surely going to be a great little space. |
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Post by Ward on Jan 1, 2015 11:29:11 GMT -6
I can vouch for Jeff Hedback also.
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Post by M57 on Jan 1, 2015 11:56:09 GMT -6
JMO That room you have there can sound very good, 1st thing i'd do is move the monitoring/desk area faced and centered up against that window and back as far as you can from it, that downward facing roof pitch is killing you straight off where it is now, you'd have to put 4" of roxul to get that even close to reasonable sounding at that proximity, and the stereo image is not going to happen there ime. I'd kill the center ceiling, and use the mirror trick on sidewalls/roof pithes/floor from your ears forward, put some thick bass traps in areas above your baseboard heat in the corners where bass will collect, and you'll be very close, those wood floors can make a nice improvement in a room, down the road consider diffusion, and wainscot wood covering the walls, that combo usually sounds great! YOU HAVE TO KILL THE CENTER CEILING, the flutter/standing waves alone between the ceiling and the floor is yuck, especially with the pitches reflecting everything back toward the center of the room. IME nothing sounds worse to my ears than drywall and carpet(the 2 things i've had most of my life lol) so you're 1 for 2 on that already, good luck on what is surely going to be a great little space. If I put the desk in front of the window, which I have and am still considering, it will suck up a lot of the room. That wall is 20' across (11' where the ceiling is flat) then the piano will be cramped in an even smaller corner - although I suppose I can just move it back toward the camera in the second pic. If I keep the desk where it is now - I'm wouldn't be opposed to hanging a lot of 4" panels on the diagonal wall, and moving the desk into the center of the room even more. Also, If i center the desk, that window is 6' across, the length of the desk - I will have no place to put any absorption panels. I could put a couple of gobos behind it, but then it will eat up even more of the room. I could also flip the desk around so you're looking at the back of it ..but that would be ugly, and depending on how I situated it I would probably be hitting my head on the ceiling whenever I got up and started walking around.. EDIT: oh yeah - and I was under the impression that diffusers need at least 6' of space to be reasonably effective. I was considering designing and making a diffusion panel for the ceiling in the center, but would I be wasting my time? |
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Post by WKG on Jan 1, 2015 12:06:36 GMT -6
Absorption at all first reflection points, wherever they are...back front above.... Bass traps in all the corners you can manage.. I have them at wall ceiling and wall floor where I was able. Cheers Wiz
That's what I did. I've got 4" of space behind the wall panels and 2" to 6" on the ceiling clouds. Wall panels are all 4" and the ceiling panels are 2" with the exception of the ceiling corners which are 4". The space is actually very nice, no flutter issues any where and still has some liveliness.
I picked up panels from here, he'll build to whatever size you need. I've also got several 6' X 2' X 4" panels on stands I use as gobos :mixmasteredacoustics.com/
Here's a quick pic, its a bit cluttered right now though.
*Edit* Added a better pic showing the ceiling
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2015 12:23:07 GMT -6
How do you guys hang those clouds? What's the easiest method?
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Post by WKG on Jan 1, 2015 13:01:25 GMT -6
I used small eye screws in the panel edges and drywall anchors in the ceiling, then just a thin piece of wire with the tape measure on each corner for level. They don't weigh very much at all.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 1, 2015 13:32:19 GMT -6
I'd use Screw eyes and small bungies, believe it or not, the spring in the bungies decouples from the structure and absorbs while helping prevent specific room resonances.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 1, 2015 13:36:07 GMT -6
JMO That room you have there can sound very good, 1st thing i'd do is move the monitoring/desk area faced and centered up against that window and back as far as you can from it, that downward facing roof pitch is killing you straight off where it is now, you'd have to put 4" of roxul to get that even close to reasonable sounding at that proximity, and the stereo image is not going to happen there ime. I'd kill the center ceiling, and use the mirror trick on sidewalls/roof pithes/floor from your ears forward, put some thick bass traps in areas above your baseboard heat in the corners where bass will collect, and you'll be very close, those wood floors can make a nice improvement in a room, down the road consider diffusion, and wainscot wood covering the walls, that combo usually sounds great! YOU HAVE TO KILL THE CENTER CEILING, the flutter/standing waves alone between the ceiling and the floor is yuck, especially with the pitches reflecting everything back toward the center of the room. IME nothing sounds worse to my ears than drywall and carpet(the 2 things i've had most of my life lol) so you're 1 for 2 on that already, good luck on what is surely going to be a great little space. If I put the desk in front of the window, which I have and am still considering, it will suck up a lot of the room. That wall is 20' across (11' where the ceiling is flat) then the piano will be cramped in an even smaller corner - although I suppose I can just move it back toward the camera in the second pic. If I keep the desk where it is now - I'm wouldn't be opposed to hanging a lot of 4" panels on the diagonal wall, and moving the desk into the center of the room even more. Also, If i center the desk, that window is 6' across, the length of the desk - I will have no place to put any absorption panels. I could put a couple of gobos behind it, but then it will eat up even more of the room. I could also flip the desk around so you're looking at the back of it ..but that would be ugly, and depending on how I situated it I would probably be hitting my head on the ceiling whenever I got up and started walking around.. EDIT: oh yeah - and I was under the impression that diffusers need at least 6' of space to be reasonably effective. I was considering designing and making a diffusion panel for the ceiling in the center, but would I be wasting my time? I hear u totally, it's not easy, I'd definitely absorb the ceiling, u have plenty of space in there for carefully placed diffusion, I'd use 2d over 1d as the greater diffusion will disapate energy faster, which is generally better in a smallish room. |
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t3
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Post by t3 on Jan 2, 2015 4:14:28 GMT -6
I've heard this as well, but the next best thing is to cadycorner panels, right? What do you guys mean? What are superchunks?  Post-punk band that started Merge Records. I'm sure that's what everybody is referring to. I can't imagine the glass in those frames is doing you any favors. Have you tried contacting GIK Acoustics for advice? www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice/ |
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Post by M57 on Jan 2, 2015 5:47:38 GMT -6
What glass are you talking about? ..the window in my room? I plan to have gobos in front of it when I track, and technically, the window will be behind me when mixing so there won't be an first order reflection issues. I've called a couple manufactures, but not GIK. I'm finding more and more places that have this kind of product. It's almost overwhelming. www.gikacoustics.comwww.tmsoundproofing.comwww.atsacoustics.comwww.soundaway.comwww.readyacoustics.comwww.mixmasteredacoustics.comwww.acoustimac.comwww.silentsource.comI've already made part of my bed and already have 6 readyacoustics diy 4x2'x4"panels with OC703 ready to go. It's really a nice looking product, but the more research I do, the more unsure I am about how I want to use them ..as traps in the corners? ..panels on the 45? ..clouds? Two are slated to become gobos because I have ordered stands for them. www.readyacoustics.com/diy_bass_traps.htmlI'm OK with mixing and matching product, but I do want to be using the same fabric, and some manufactures do not have a large fabric selection. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 2, 2015 8:37:11 GMT -6
I think he was talking about me.
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