|
|
Post by drbill on Dec 30, 2014 11:30:01 GMT -6
...I believe it's more fitting to remove the "DIY" from the thread's title...used-gear purchases inherently involve risk..."Buying 2nd-hand gear frustration" seems a more appropriate heading... I don't think so. Most manufacturers put their gear thru QC, have schematics they follow meticulously, and have return service or local service centers if something breaks. There's an easy fix. DIY, not so much. People build and substitute things like crazy. Due to lack of parts of experimentation. I know you're a DIY apologist, but I've bought hundreds of used pieces, and the ONLY ones that were messed up were DIY. No more second hand DIY for me. |
|
|
|
Post by kidvybes on Dec 30, 2014 12:27:32 GMT -6
Happy & Healthy New Year to you too drbill!...
|
|
|
|
Post by dandeurloo on Dec 31, 2014 18:59:04 GMT -6
Those switches suck. I had the exact same thing happen to one I built with in days.
Btw, those Lorlin switches are found in lots of gear. They are cheap. I usually try and avoid them. It took me 10 mins to repair it.
|
|
|
|
Post by jsteiger on Dec 31, 2014 19:25:37 GMT -6
This is all why the Heider has never been and will never be a DIY kit. Not the cheap Lorlin switches but the thread in general.
On that note, I kinda chuckle when I see new gear introduced with those switches. It is a super easy to spot sign that corners are being cut/price is more important than quality. No offense to 'Chung or the DIY crowd cuz I know saving money is a big thing in that arena but if you are a manufacturer who wants to be taken seriously, don't use shit Lorlin switches in your gear.
|
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Dec 31, 2014 20:02:29 GMT -6
...I believe it's more fitting to remove the "DIY" from the thread's title...used-gear purchases inherently involve risk..."Buying 2nd-hand gear frustration" seems a more appropriate heading... I don't think so. Most manufacturers put their gear thru QC, have schematics they follow meticulously, and have return service or local service centers if something breaks. There's an easy fix. DIY, not so much. People build and substitute things like crazy. Due to lack of parts of experimentation. I know you're a DIY apologist, but I've bought hundreds of used pieces, and the ONLY ones that were messed up were DIY. No more second hand DIY for me. come on, this is cheap shot bill, dennis is right, if he's an apologist then your calling a whole lot of us much worse. Sorry you had bad experiences, but you're the minority in that. Most guys in the diy community are stand up fellas, and most only build with premium parts, most manufacturers on the other hand surely do NOT. |
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Dec 31, 2014 20:06:26 GMT -6
This is all why the Heider has never been and will never be a DIY kit. Not the cheap Lorlin switches but the thread in general. On that note, I kinda chuckle when I see new gear introduced with those switches. It is a super easy to spot sign that corners are being cut/price is more important than quality. No offense to 'Chung or the DIY crowd cuz I know saving money is a big thing in that arena but if you are a manufacturer who wants to be taken seriously, don't use shit Lorlin switches in your gear. i've built quite a few of your awesome diy kits, and i plan to build a whole lot more, that said, i never even considered substituting a single part in a vp, lc or any of it at all. Do people do actually do that to your kits? if so...wow, i'm taken back a bit by it, seems to me there is nothing to improve honestly. |
|
|
|
Post by dandeurloo on Dec 31, 2014 20:45:45 GMT -6
The Chung kits are great. That switch was the only thing cheap in it. I get it, not a big deal to me. Sonically, it's the same and was a easy fix. But I agree, in a full on production product lorlins are a dead give aways to cutting corners. Lorlins are great for prototypes and stuff like that.
DIY is just like producing or engineering. It's the wizard not the wand!
|
|
|
|
Post by jsteiger on Dec 31, 2014 20:55:52 GMT -6
This is all why the Heider has never been and will never be a DIY kit. Not the cheap Lorlin switches but the thread in general. On that note, I kinda chuckle when I see new gear introduced with those switches. It is a super easy to spot sign that corners are being cut/price is more important than quality. No offense to 'Chung or the DIY crowd cuz I know saving money is a big thing in that arena but if you are a manufacturer who wants to be taken seriously, don't use shit Lorlin switches in your gear. i've built quite a few of your awesome diy kits, and i plan to build a whole lot more, that said, i never even considered substituting a single part in a vp, lc or any of it at all. Do people do actually do that to your kits? if so...wow, i'm taken back a bit by it, seems to me there is nothing to improve honestly. I more meant the overall concept of buying 2nd hand DIY can be a bad experience (thread title). If you search eBay for API you will find a shit ton of folks selling my kits. I am sure many of them are built and work fine but you never know. Buyer beware. I wanted to isolate the Heider from that problem hence no DIY for it. My kits are not perfect but I try my best to give a product that speaks quality far beyond the price that was paid. |
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Dec 31, 2014 21:03:21 GMT -6
Ah could be wrong but I think chung's c12 diy psu replaces that part so why its in the psu you have is a mystery to me ? But I think the principle of caveat emptor applies and certainly to buying diy kits made by tom, dick or harry  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 1:57:26 GMT -6
Hm, the Lorlin or simiar type switches cost a bit more than a euro. Plastic cased. Not much to expect from them, but ok, if you need something for experimenting and don't plan to sell - there is nothing wrong with that. Lots of the DIY fun is building something, seeing it working, and improving it. Well - and often enough, the last step is not done, it works as long as it works and the DIYer is able to fix it within minutes if e.g. a switch breaks apart ... and it's a matter of initial project pricing.
For the buyer of DIY second hand units it may be annoying.
To make my previous post clear - most of the gear that i bought used was OK and also i never bought pure DIY stuff. And i would only buy DIY gear second hand, if there is detailed information available. And if i am able to fix it if it breaks.
Another point...
Sometimes there is the impression, that DIY is desirably cheaper than company-built gear. This is often enough not correct. If a guy like Tony builds a mic, i am almost ;-) sure, he knows exactly what he is doing, uses good parts and does things right the first time. Not the case for the average DIYer. If you count in working time, DIY gear is in most cases more expensive, than company stuff would be - if you build it up to the same specs. What made pro-audio DIY so desireable for a long time, was, and still is, that you can build stuff that is unobtanium from companies anyway.
You have to decide, if you can live with the build quality of the distinct unit, no company warranties, no or limited customer support and last but not least the pricing, that is hard to compare, if you don't know all the details, if you intend to buy a second hand DIY unit.
|
|
|
|
Post by kidvybes on Jan 1, 2015 9:12:14 GMT -6
Ah could be wrong but I think chung's c12 diy psu replaces that part so why its in the psu you have is a mystery to me ? Actually, the Lorlin IS the replacement part included in the kit to replace the Chinese stock PSU pattern switch...I have 3 of those C12 PSUs and have not experienced any issue with the switch... ...sorry if this makes me a "DIY apologist"...(does that statement make me a "DIY apologist-apologist"?)... |
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 1, 2015 10:07:39 GMT -6
I kind of agree with smallbutfine. I would certainly buy 2nd hand DIY from some of the serious cats here, svart, tonycampbell, Cat5, jsteiger and others, but on eBay? I doubt it,
|
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jan 1, 2015 10:40:55 GMT -6
Ah could be wrong but I think chung's c12 diy psu replaces that part so why its in the psu you have is a mystery to me ? Actually, the Lorlin IS the replacement part included in the kit to replace the Chinese stock PSU pattern switch...I have 3 of those C12 PSUs and have not experienced any issue with the switch... ...sorry if this makes me a "DIY apologist"...(does that statement make me a "DIY apologist-apologist"?)... Thx i wasn't certain if I was right and chunger/matador always spec good parts and I don't know anybody with trouble with the switch if properly installed. The unknown and frankly suspect here in my mind is what the previous owner did deliberately or accidentally to the part. Once instalked correctly it would also be covered by the case so how did it get broken ? Luckily an easy and not expensive fix ! I'm with mjb on this one: buy diy from tbose you know !! |
|
|
|
Post by kidvybes on Jan 1, 2015 10:47:36 GMT -6
I kind of agree with smallbutfine. I would certainly buy 2nd hand DIY from some of the serious cats here, svart, tonycampbell, Cat5, jsteiger and others, but on eBay? I doubt it, ...I have bought DIY gear on eBay, but not before doing some serious detective work to research the seller...one of my DIY tube-mic purchases turned out to be the handiwork of this talented gear designer (Joel Cameron): www.rascalaudio.net/...the last piece of DIY gear I purchased was built by this veteran gear tech: www.flickr.com/photos/30724623@N07/with/6128644067/...those two pieces of gear cost me about the same as the combined components cost required for each particular build...a little time spent on Google doing the legwork can pay off big time!...(being in good stead with a local, respected DIY builder as a back-up plan doesn't hurt either!)...  |
|
|
|
Post by kidvybes on Jan 1, 2015 10:56:32 GMT -6
Thx i wasn't certain if I was right and chunger/matador always spec good parts and I don't know anybody with trouble with the switch if properly installed. The unknown and frankly suspect here in my mind is what the previous owner did deliberately or accidentally to the part. Once instalked correctly it would also be covered by the case so how did it get broken ? ...I happen to know the PSU with the faulty switch in question was built by one of the premier members of the DIY microphone community (I own two of his builds myself)...that is why I suspect, since that particular assembled mic kit traveled the circumference of the globe during the busiest shipping season of the year, that the handling of that package may have played a part in the switch being initially damaged (although as I was informed by the OP, outer packaging itself wasn't damaged)... |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Jan 1, 2015 11:27:41 GMT -6
Happy & Healthy New Year to you too drbill!... Same to you as well man!!! New year, more gear! :-) |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Jan 1, 2015 11:31:06 GMT -6
I don't think so. Most manufacturers put their gear thru QC, have schematics they follow meticulously, and have return service or local service centers if something breaks. There's an easy fix. DIY, not so much. People build and substitute things like crazy. Due to lack of parts of experimentation. I know you're a DIY apologist, but I've bought hundreds of used pieces, and the ONLY ones that were messed up were DIY. No more second hand DIY for me. come on, this is cheap shot bill, dennis is right, if he's an apologist then your calling a whole lot of us much worse. Sorry you had bad experiences, but you're the minority in that. Most guys in the diy community are stand up fellas, and most only build with premium parts, most manufacturers on the other hand surely do NOT. Tony - I think your perspective is yours, and mine is mine - and from my perspective, there is nothing wrong with "apologist" - I think it's accurate and it describes someone who is excited about whatever they are liking. Perhaps "enthusiast" would have been a better call. Like I said, done right, DIY is wonderful - generally better and more high end than what any manufacturer. can put out But done wrong, or done halfway, or done by someone with my skills, it's a land mine field. I guess I've just had some bad luck. But it's my honest perspective, and I'm not calling any DIY guy out. Like you mentioned, I think most here really know what they are doing, and I think perhaps your perspective is based on that. But all is not that way. At least with manufacturers there is some kind of warranty and backup. |
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 1, 2015 11:33:20 GMT -6
I kind of agree with smallbutfine. I would certainly buy 2nd hand DIY from some of the serious cats here, svart, tonycampbell, Cat5, jsteiger and others, but on eBay? I doubt it, ...I have bought DIY gear on eBay, but not before doing some serious detective work to research the seller...one of my DIY tube-mic purchases turned out to be the handiwork of this talented gear designer (Joel Cameron): www.rascalaudio.net/.. I agree, due diligence is necessary, but don't forget, you know a heck of a lot more than a guy like me does about this kind of thing, so it would really have to feel right for me to take the plunge of buying DIY second hand. No worries though, I can't afford $hit at the moment anyway ;-) |
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jan 1, 2015 11:34:43 GMT -6
Fair enough. I don't know the history and poor packing is certainly a likely cause .
I got a cardboard package delivery recently that looked like it had literally been stepped on : luckily the contents weren't damaged.
Again another reason i use paypal, as long as sender pays for tracking , fully insured between sender and reciever and I check everything very carefully on reciept !
|
|
|
|
Post by hadaja on Jan 1, 2015 16:42:56 GMT -6
Quick update:
One of the C12's is going back to the seller to fix up the backplate loss of volume problem and intermittent XLR lead connection.
The other 251/C12 clone - whilst I cant 100% rule out the freighting of this item to me I do believe it was not the freight that caused the problem but the construction of the unit. The seller has responded and replied that they omitted to reconfigure the switch on the PSU before sending and have provided a link to get a replacement part. Whilst I will need to source and pay for the work to be done in this case, I do think that this is one of the rare occasions when that is just par for the course of buying DIY from long distances. And it is quite a reasonable solution/option to this scenario.
Lessons to be learnt and Observations:
Ask Ask Ask any and all questions before you commit to a purchase. Eg. Has this been checked in all polar configurations, can you give it a good test out before sending etc. Is it a 9 or 3 configured polar switching.
I see buying DIY gear is like buying a prototype of a product before it is released in it final stage from a manufacturer. When buying a prototype from a manufacture I have realised that I buy it warts and all but I expect it to work form the get go but after that you are on your own in regards to fixing faults and having limited help from the Manufacturer.
Also try not to make any assumptions before giving the seller an opportunity to respond. Waiting for responses can take a while and that is just the way it is. It's also a good opportunity to calm down and bring this all in perspective.
After listening to my first CT12 capsule I would have to say that it is not an airy capsule like the chinese ones but it is very smooth and more defined and just has that something nice sound about it. I dont know whether the "hype" I have built up myself about it is pychologically effecting my perception of the sound, but I do like it.
I am not put off buying 2nd DIY gear but I think getting an internal shot of the device before committing to purchase can give you an indication of the quality of work you are about to receive - and may the Lord make us truly Thankful.
Over and Out.
|
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jan 1, 2015 17:20:26 GMT -6
Glad that this is working out !
in my pay pal invoices i always make a general statement like "the unit is undamaged and in full functional condition".
If it shows up differently paypal will only care abut what you thought you bought as documented in the electronic invoice cus that is what the seller agreed to sell you.
|
|
|
|
Post by kidvybes on Jan 1, 2015 18:23:32 GMT -6
The other 251/C12 clone - whilst I cant 100% rule out the freighting of this item to me I do believe it was not the freight that caused the problem but the construction of the unit. The seller has responded and replied that they omitted to reconfigure the switch on the PSU before sending and have provided a link to get a replacement part. Whilst I will need to source and pay for the work to be done in this case, I do think that this is one of the rare occasions when that is just par for the course of buying DIY from long distances. And it is quite a reasonable solution/option to this scenario. I am not put off buying 2nd DIY gear but I think getting an internal shot of the device before committing to purchase can give you an indication of the quality of work you are about to receive ...I'm glad you are sorting out the issues to the best resolve...so you are saying Dany chose to employ the stock polar-pattern switch (the Lorlin switch has 12 wiring-tabs on the back, while that switch appears to have only 3-4)...that's odd because most of the Chinese stock switches I've seen have metal shafts, not plastic (see bottom pic)...when you mentioned that it "disintegrated" while you were reattaching the knob, I assumed it was the Lorlin switch... ...check these photos and see if they are in fact the PSU you received...since you purchased Poctop's own prototype of his 251 build kit, these photos are part of that build thread, one of the links provided prior to purchase...I may be guessing, but if the front of that large PSU pattern knob took a bunch of bumps being jostled in the case while travelling, it may have been enough cumulative force to the shaft to generate the separation of the switch mechanism inside the unit, as per your own posted pic... |
|
|
|
Post by hadaja on Jan 1, 2015 20:11:46 GMT -6
I did not want to mention Dany's name as I did not think it was "Proper" to do that. The power supply sits in the case with molded foam inserts but there is a gap in the foam for the button to stick out of and nothing not even the lead presses up against it. It is the 3rd picture down power supply with the blue plastic knob. But the shaft on the 4th picture is of another unit. My shaft is plastic.
|
|
|
|
Post by kidvybes on Jan 1, 2015 22:20:14 GMT -6
...the first 3 pictures are all of the same PSU (the one you received)...the 4th picture is of the standard Chinese PSU stock polar-pattern switch, which do have metal shafts...
...and I don't think there's a problem mentioning Dany, as there's no reason to believe he was particularly at fault...Dany has sold many of his prototype builds such as this to a number of us in the DIY community...IMHO, owning one of the original prototype builds of any of the more reputable GroupDIY mic designers is a nice opportunity, minor inconveniences such as this repair, aside...but, on the bright side, from the looks of that switch installation, I'm not sure you need a tech...it's a simple swap with a 3-wire soldering hookup (the MataChung C12 switch requires a much more technically challenging installation requiring the fanning of 9 resistors)...hopefully, once the repair is made, you will enjoy the mic and put it to good use...
|
|
|
|
Post by chunger on Jan 21, 2015 6:49:29 GMT -6
Late to the party on this thread. . . strange my photos ended up floating all over a thread about a poctop prototype.
I would like to clarify that I am NOT a qualified electronics designer, and my primary "role" or contribution in DIY kits if I am actively collaborating in a project is to faithfully represent and implement the exact intent of the designer without deviations and to showcase each build with precision and care.
Each designer has a different style and process to what they create. This shows in mechanical design, component placement, trace layout, technical documentation, BOM/parts selection, etc., etc., etc. Having built kits from a few different designers (some in collaboration, and some for pure personal interest), I am always intrigued by the unique signature imprinted on each design. For the most part, good designers are HIGHLY opinionated on various points of design, and often, the opinions of various designers contradict each other. DIY for long enough, and you develop your own preferences, and since it's DIY, you can impose those preferences on your builds with varying degrees of ease.
In this context, for projects that I personally "kit", I will never substitute any component without explicit direction or exact part number clearance by the kit designer. I strongly feel this is essential to maintaining the integrity of the design. In the case of the C12, Matador's BOM is followed exactly, and the Lorlin CK1454 was the exact part specified, so it is the part used. . . except when prototyping and out of stock where I have re-used the original Chinese switch. With a few hundred of these floating around in the wild now, Dan Deurloo's build was the first switch failure I was made aware of. Other high-dollar parts, however, have been repeatedly problematic, so my focus has been on resolving those.
Budget IS a factor in the overall plan, and it was my idea to use the cheap and readily available OEM Chinese PSU enclosure along with the power transformer and primary wiring because that is one of the more dangerous parts of the build and a major hurdle for some beginners to get right. But, I feel we have put forward a solid kit choosing our battles carefully and emphasizing the very robust components in the most sonic and safety critical areas while sacrificing fit/finish on the body and other less essential areas to put a sonically uncompromising tube microphone within reach of the "common man".
|
|
