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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 5, 2014 11:24:54 GMT -6
So - I love my Helios, but it has no headroom...and the distortion it generates is not the pleasant kind. I could be chasing my tail on this, but here's my question. I've always just used the compressor I'm using (either Sta or 1176) to add input gain and therefore triggering the compression, but my thought is, as you add input gain with the Sta, you're adding color. Of course, I love the Sta color, but I'd like to have the option of pulling the input (color) down and using it mainly for gain reduction. I would assum I would do that by getting more gain into the Sta to begin with. Is there anything I can use after the Helios as like a "clean gain" booster? Something that doesn't add color? Will the effect be negligible? Am I understanding the situation correctly?
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 5, 2014 11:51:14 GMT -6
see the cloudlifter vs fethead vs... thread.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 5, 2014 14:57:51 GMT -6
see the cloudlifter vs fethead vs... thread. Can these be used with a tube mic? I've had occasion where I wanted a bit more juice from my BN. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 5, 2014 15:30:12 GMT -6
see the cloudlifter vs fethead vs... thread. Can these be used with a tube mic? I've had occasion where I wanted a bit more juice from my BN. i don't know? good Q..., why not give it a try and see what happens lol 8) |
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Post by kidvybes on Dec 5, 2014 19:57:44 GMT -6
see the cloudlifter vs fethead vs... thread. Can these be used with a tube mic? I've had occasion where I wanted a bit more juice from my BN. Yes, they can be used with any mic that does not require phantom-power...since it goes between the preamp and tube-mic's PSU, the Fethead/Cloudlifter/Durham will grab all the phantom-power current before it reaches the PSU, which would not allow the phantom-power to pass anyway...I've tried it with my CP Durham and it works fine... |
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 5, 2014 19:59:12 GMT -6
So, out of the output of the Helios into the Input of one of these Gizmos?
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Post by kidvybes on Dec 5, 2014 20:01:24 GMT -6
So, out of the output of the Helios into the Input of one of these Gizmos? ...actually, between the mic and pre, before compression...the "gizmo" boosts the mics output by adding gain and adjusting impedance... |
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 5, 2014 20:04:39 GMT -6
Well, no, I would being coming out of the Helios into the cloudlifter then into the Sta, right? Or at least that's what I'm asking. Is my thinking sound? Less of the input knob on the Sta, less color? I guess I would be hearing more of the Helios and less of the Sta?
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Post by kidvybes on Dec 5, 2014 20:33:57 GMT -6
Well, no, I would being coming out of the Helios into the cloudlifter then into the Sta, right? Or at least that's what I'm asking. Is my thinking sound? Less of the input knob on the Sta, less color? I guess I would be hearing more of the Helios and less of the Sta? ...my concern would be the impedance load which the device of choice adjusts for the benefit of the microphone's transformer...not sure how it would work in that configuration...my most common use chain: Cascade Victor ribbon/Shure SM7 dynamic > CP Durham > Great River ME-1NV > Safe Sound P1 (mild compression) > DAW ...in my case, since the Durham adds about 25dB of clean gain, my GR/P1 is only running low/moderate clean output to begin with... ...next up, I will be trying it with my VP28 > LA500 in place of the GR/P1 combo... |
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 5, 2014 20:43:20 GMT -6
I know at one point, arny had talked about doing a non-eq version of the Helios with an output knob. jsteiger I guess I could use the Heider in line mode and add a little gain with it? Maybe a 528 would be a better option? Damnit. Now I want two 528's. (Again) |
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 5, 2014 20:45:19 GMT -6
Btw, Jeff, am I thinking of this correctly? More output from the pre with less input from the compressor would result in less more pre color and less compressor color? Sorry for the noobie gain staging question.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 5, 2014 21:34:34 GMT -6
Btw, Jeff, am I thinking of this correctly? More output from the pre with less input from the compressor would result in less more pre color and less compressor color? Sorry for the noobie gain staging question. there is no 48v going out of the helios, so it would render these things as nothing but an attenuator(the opposite of a line booster) |
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 5, 2014 21:42:58 GMT -6
But the Heider in series in line mode, with a click or two up on the fader would work, right?
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Post by drbill on Dec 5, 2014 22:42:27 GMT -6
John - RE: your quest for clean gain in a console-LESS world :
Going from one pre into another pre like the Heider is not going to give you "color"-less gain. Quite the opposite IMO. The FEThead, etc. is not what you seek either, although it will work great on dynamics or ribbons, but again, it is not EXACTLY what you are asking about.
What you seek was STANDARD in the console based world. i.e.: gain after the mic pre and EQ and compression (on the insert). This is EXACTLY what the Missing Link was designed to do. It's the post pre, post EQ - FADER - stage of a console. An API to be exact. But honestly, as amazingly good as it is, the Missing Link is not completely "color"-LESS either, although it would be my call for your situation.
Using a compressor as you have been is a cool and effective way to get where you're going, but neither the STA or an 1176 are "color"-LESS compressors. I would try using an Aphex 661 if you truly want LESS color. I've used it for exactly as you describe. You can get em for pennies on the dollar, and it's a solid option to the colored comps you already own.
Or you could get a small mixer that's transparent. D&R comes to mind at the top of that list. A small D&R Vision is an amazing tool.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 5, 2014 22:44:00 GMT -6
But the Heider in series in line mode, with a click or two up on the fader would work, right? as long as it's in line mode, it should be fine in series after the Helios preamp. To be clear, are you having weak output from the helios? or headroom problems on the way in? |
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 5, 2014 22:46:53 GMT -6
John - RE: your quest for clean gain in a console-LESS world : Going from one pre into another pre like the Heider is not going to give you "color"-less gain. Quite the opposite IMO. The FEThead, etc. is not what you seek either, although it will work great on dynamics or ribbons, but again, it is not EXACTLY what you are asking about. What you seek was STANDARD in the console based world. i.e.: gain after the mic pre and EQ and compression (on the insert). This is EXACTLY what the Missing Link was designed to do. It's the post pre, post EQ - FADER - stage of a console. An API to be exact. But honestly, as amazingly good as it is, the Missing Link is not completely "color"-LESS either, although it would be my call for your situation. Using a compressor as you have been is a cool and effective way to get where you're going, but neither the STA or an 1176 are "color"-LESS compressors. I would try using an Aphex 661 if you truly want LESS color. I've used it for exactly as you describe. You can get em for pennies on the dollar, and it's a solid option to the colored comps you already own. Or you could get a small mixer that's transparent. D&R comes to mind at the top of that list. A small D&R Vision is an amazing tool. this is totally true, one thing though, the aphex 651(at least, i know you said 661), loves a lot of input gain, which could be a problem if the helios is weak output? |
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Post by drbill on Dec 5, 2014 23:23:02 GMT -6
Hmmmm...never had that problem Tony. It always worked fine for me in that respect. Of course the simplest, cheapest option - just raise the gain in your DAW.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 6, 2014 8:15:00 GMT -6
Yeah - I know adding another pre in line mode - especially one with two trannies like the Heider - wouldn't be colorless...but it might be interesting!. Need to just experiment. I wouldn't say the Helios has weak gain, it just doesn't have a lot of headroom for really dynamic sources...and the amount of headroom decreases as you raise the gain. So, for dynamic vocalist, I usually have to back down the Helios' gain to where - recorded by itself - is a weak signal. This is also what I've been feeding my compressor - which leads me to the main gain staging question of the thread that hasn't been answered: Is the compressor's color entirely determined by it's input knob? I would think feeding the compressor a lower signal and having to crank the input knob to reach -10 db GR is going to result in hearing more compressor color while feeding it a loud signal and lowering the input to reach -10 db GR will be less compressor color. Or is -10 db GR result in the same amount of color no matter how it's achieved?
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 6, 2014 8:19:38 GMT -6
Hmmmm...never had that problem Tony. It always worked fine for me in that respect. Of course the simplest, cheapest option - just raise the gain in your DAW. Very true...I really should get used to tracking vox without the sta on the way in - but I just found a broad sword that worked really well 90% of the time and committed to it. I could raise the gain in the DAW and then compress after the fact. (That would require not being lazy) Also - I could use this new fangled UA Apollo that has the option to just monitor with whatever compression and not commit to it. Just use it on the way in for the vocalist's benefit and commit later. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 6, 2014 8:24:17 GMT -6
Hmmmm...never had that problem Tony. It always worked fine for me in that respect. Of course the simplest, cheapest option - just raise the gain in your DAW. Very true...I really should get used to tracking vox without the sta on the way in - but I just found a broad sword that worked really well 90% of the time and committed to it. I could raise the gain in the DAW and then compress after the fact. (That would require not being lazy) Also - I could use this new fangled UA Apollo that has the option to just monitor with whatever compression and not commit to it. Just use it on the way in for the vocalist's benefit and commit later. Why don't you just ditch the Helios all together and grab a pre that might work better for you? |
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Dec 6, 2014 8:28:59 GMT -6
Clip gain simply amplifies what's there. I do it all the time for proper gain staging, both boosting and attenuating.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 6, 2014 8:34:27 GMT -6
Very true...I really should get used to tracking vox without the sta on the way in - but I just found a broad sword that worked really well 90% of the time and committed to it. I could raise the gain in the DAW and then compress after the fact. (That would require not being lazy) Also - I could use this new fangled UA Apollo that has the option to just monitor with whatever compression and not commit to it. Just use it on the way in for the vocalist's benefit and commit later. Why don't you just ditch the Helios all together and grab a pre that might work better for you? Because I love the sound of it. Continually choose it over most everything else for vocals. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 6, 2014 8:39:49 GMT -6
Why don't you just ditch the Helios all together and grab a pre that might work better for you? Because I love the sound of it. Continually choose it over most everything else for vocals. I bet you'd like that new Retro pre. There is a TC Rooster on the bay right now that I bet you could score for a good price too. |
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Post by drbill on Dec 6, 2014 10:38:49 GMT -6
Yeah - I know adding another pre in line mode - especially one with two trannies like the Heider - wouldn't be colorless...but it might be interesting!. Need to just experiment. Yeah, it's a trick that's been done for years, but generally not when the engineer wants purity. :-) I tracked some drums with a single mic (MK47) out front of the kit a couple of weeks ago. Used the Silver Bullet prototype and cascaded the API into NEVE and cranked the neve side of things with moderate push on the API side. My jaw hit the ground. With one mic and one (well, two actually as there's two X two in one unit) pre I got the sound I was after. Very grungy, very saturated and really vibey sounding. I've tried to get that sound for years, and granted, it's not an everyday thing for me, but cool to know how those guys are getting that f'd up sound that is really cool. So I'd say try it, but wait until you want some juice..... heh heh |
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Post by dandeurloo on Dec 6, 2014 10:55:13 GMT -6
Very true...I really should get used to tracking vox without the sta on the way in - but I just found a broad sword that worked really well 90% of the time and committed to it. I could raise the gain in the DAW and then compress after the fact. (That would require not being lazy) Also - I could use this new fangled UA Apollo that has the option to just monitor with whatever compression and not commit to it. Just use it on the way in for the vocalist's benefit and commit later. Why don't you just ditch the Helios all together and grab a pre that might work better for you? I've heard the helios distortion on a couple really new and popular releases. They just sound like massive mistakes. I would ditch those things so fast and get a Heider. It has the vibe but not the problems. My 2 Cents. |
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