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Post by mulmany on Nov 28, 2014 22:54:36 GMT -6
What do you guys use for pcb standoffs and where do you buy them?
Was looking for a nice starter kit or something like that. I have a project sitting cause I have not taken the time to figure out how I am going to effectively mount the board. I have used the self adhesive ones before, but not sure I like the reliability of them over time and abuse.
Thanks
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Post by jeromemason on Nov 28, 2014 23:09:15 GMT -6
Radio Shack sells them.... over by the solder. Pretty sure they have different lengths as well. Pretty cheap. Definitely drill and mount if you can.
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Post by svart on Nov 28, 2014 23:17:36 GMT -6
Really depends on where you are located and what you want to buy. Search by "threaded standoff". They aren't specific to the electronics world, so don't just look at electronics shops.
Typical online places are supply houses like McMaster-Carr or parts houses like Mouser/Digikey, etc. Local places like Radio Shack, Frys, Microcenter, etc might have them too, but expect to pay a lot more for them there.
They come in all shapes and sizes, materials and so forth. I typically use 1/4" long aluminum ones with 4-40 threads.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2014 3:05:59 GMT -6
I used the standoffs used to mount computer mainboards alot in the past for their availability. Cheap, too.
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Post by horvitz on Nov 29, 2014 5:08:26 GMT -6
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Nov 29, 2014 22:31:25 GMT -6
I go to the local Electroics Supply (ironically called Electronics Supply Co) just because I can walk down the Isles see what they have and 9 times out of 10 find something better than what I had planned on using.
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rjr
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Post by rjr on Apr 12, 2015 11:49:58 GMT -6
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Post by jayson on Apr 13, 2015 7:52:35 GMT -6
Radio Shack sells them.... over by the solder. Pretty sure they have different lengths as well. Pretty cheap. Definitely drill and mount if you can. D'oh!!! Not anymore! They can be had at MicroCenter if you have one nearby.
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Post by svart on Apr 13, 2015 8:43:09 GMT -6
I don't like metal standoffs at all. If by chance the screw or washer that's holding your pcb to the standoff rubs through the pcb into your ground plane, you've now got a ground loop. That's not necessarily true at all. Ground loops happen because ground traces/planes are too high impedance to return the collective currents to the supply. Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with grounding to a chassis or not. If a ground loop forms from grounding to the chassis, it only shows deficiency in the PCB layout, not from simply using a chassis to ground the board. Generally speaking, adding a ground plane, whether in the PCB stackup itself, or using a chassis as main ground can be very beneficial if done correctly. The problem is that not a lot of people at the DIY level understand ground current physics. Even a lot of fellow electrical engineers I know misunderstand grounding methodology as it's not a trivial matter at all. It's even more fun when you get up into the RF range where even your ground traces/planes end up with standing waveforms on them and you have to integrate full clamshell shielding and design around the waveguide effect that it creates. Loads of fun!
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Post by jimwilliams on Apr 13, 2015 9:32:09 GMT -6
I've had the best results with a pcb ground plane on the rear of the pcb, opposite what everyone else does, the ground plane on the component side. The reason was THD tests. A metal film resistor will capacitivly couple to the ground plane under it once the signal levels exceed around +6dbu. Smart designers already know this, that is why the plane is cut away under the resistors. Audio Precision tests show a right turn of THD levels past +6dbu if the film resistors are located over a ground plane. Put the ground plane on the back side of the pcb and there is then enough spacing to avoid capacitive coupling.
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Post by svart on Apr 13, 2015 9:46:43 GMT -6
I've had the best results with a pcb ground plane on the rear of the pcb, opposite what everyone else does, the ground plane on the component side. The reason was THD tests. A metal film resistor will capacitivly couple to the ground plane under it once the signal levels exceed around +6dbu. Smart designers already know this, that is why the plane is cut away under the resistors. Audio Precision tests show a right turn of THD levels past +6dbu if the film resistors are located over a ground plane. Put the ground plane on the back side of the pcb and there is then enough spacing to avoid capacitive coupling. Agreed. I always run the main ground plane under the top plane, AKA microstrip transmission line arrangement. it couples the EMI to tighten the fields as well as gives a good solid ground plane. You can cut under resistors and such, but at higher frequencies you have to be careful because cutouts can cause discontinuities which can alter the current flows and also form filters known as DEF (Distributed Element Filters). A cutout in a plane or trace can make a low pass filter at low Mhz frequencies and above. Not a big deal for audio, but if you have any heavy RFI filtering happening on the board (for ingress or from microprocessors on the same board) you can have issues with current eddies which show up as clock/signal spurs at strange places on the PCB. Cutouts under parts also create impedance discontinuities. If the goal is working with higher speed signals, like clocks for micros, or RF in general, you typically want an impedance controlled transmission line so no reflections happen which can couple into your other analog portions, or because reflections at high levels can degrade waveforms through partial waveform nulling. Having cutouts without considering impedance control can cause anomalous reflections and spurious signals which will always find some nice quiet analog traces to infect!
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rjr
New Member
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Post by rjr on Apr 14, 2015 11:56:13 GMT -6
I've had the best results with a pcb ground plane on the rear of the pcb, opposite what everyone else does, the ground plane on the component side. The reason was THD tests. A metal film resistor will capacitivly couple to the ground plane under it once the signal levels exceed around +6dbu. Smart designers already know this, that is why the plane is cut away under the resistors. Audio Precision tests show a right turn of THD levels past +6dbu if the film resistors are located over a ground plane. Put the ground plane on the back side of the pcb and there is then enough spacing to avoid capacitive coupling. I do the same thing with my pcb's. All ground planes are on the rear. However, not everyone else does this, and I've been sent DIY gear to repair where I have seen lock washers dug into the pcb causing a ground connection where there shouldn't be one, which in turn causes unwanted noise. Just giving DIYers out there an alternative to make their projects a little easier. Also, those Radioshack standoffs are supposedly insulated. And I say supposedly because I've found multiple occasions where they show continuity from one side to the other.
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 14, 2015 13:26:41 GMT -6
does raising the resistors off the board a bit combat the capacitive coupling effect? or no because the leads come back down?
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Post by svart on Apr 14, 2015 14:06:46 GMT -6
does raising the resistors off the board a bit combat the capacitive coupling effect? or no because the leads come back down? It does! However, doing that lengthens the inductive nature of the leads. Neither are a problem at audio frequencies usually. Increasing the distance between PCB planes and increasing the distance around the through-holes to the ground around them also reduces capacitive coupling to ground(or any other signal trace/plane). Also, using smaller parts in general reduces these issues. In RF, having any kind of leads is a big no-no so it's almost entirely SMD. Usually there are constraints for ground plane distances through various forms of PCB material. Even the PCB material itself has a capacitive effect which causes it to become a LPF at higher frequencies (called Er, permittivity or dielectric constant). There are many different kinds of PCB materials to choose from depending on the usage.
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Post by ppa on May 8, 2015 18:01:20 GMT -6
the capacitive effects between resistors and ground plane on top layer are however very small. I would see with more attention the capacitive effects between tracks and ground plane that are generally much higher those of the resistors.
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Post by jimwilliams on May 9, 2015 20:09:20 GMT -6
I've done a bit of testing with the Audio Precision on that stuff. Usually traces and stray capacitance to planes in the audio band and up to 10x or 200k hz doesn't affect much. It's not super important unless you have super wide bandwidth amplifiers or high impedances working. At 1 gig, small capacitances will work down into the audio band from the r/c scaling. Go back down to 10k ohms and it's negligible.
I've not seen bandwidth limiting but THD increases from component side ground planes with axial metal film resistors that have the conductive metal film on the outside of the resistor's core. Pop in a Vishay S-102 bulk foil and it goes way. Lift the axial metal film resistor body off the pcb 1/16" and it goes away. It's also recommended by the chip makers to cut away the ground plane around sensitive inputs in wide bandwidth or high impedance amplifiers.
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Post by ppa on May 10, 2015 2:47:08 GMT -6
Usually traces and stray capacitance to planes in the audio band and up to 10x or 200k hz doesn't affect much. you have seen probably small tracks for example in audio power amplifiers you may see much bigger tracks. Inside power amps, large and long tracks may be a problem if ground planes are used there. (for the high current handled inside them these big tracks are required) Just doing some calculations. For this reason (and other ones) some amp designers avoid to use ground plane inside audio power amps.
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Post by ppa on May 10, 2015 9:38:00 GMT -6
I've done a bit of testing with the Audio Precision on that stuff. Usually traces and stray capacitance to planes in the audio band and up to 10x or 200k hz doesn't affect much. It's not super important unless you have super wide bandwidth amplifiers or high impedances working. At 1 gig, small capacitances will work down into the audio band from the r/c scaling. Go back down to 10k ohms and it's negligible. I've not seen bandwidth limiting but THD increases from component side ground planes with axial metal film resistors that have the conductive metal film on the outside of the resistor's core. Pop in a Vishay S-102 bulk foil and it goes way. Lift the axial metal film resistor body off the pcb 1/16" and it goes away. It's also recommended by the chip makers to cut away the ground plane around sensitive inputs in wide bandwidth or high impedance amplifiers. very good work Jim, it is interesting to see that that resistors give thd
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Post by jimwilliams on May 10, 2015 10:19:34 GMT -6
Usually traces and stray capacitance to planes in the audio band and up to 10x or 200k hz doesn't affect much. you have seen probably small tracks for example in audio power amplifiers you may see much bigger tracks. Inside power amps, large and long tracks may be a problem if ground planes are used there. (for the high current handled inside them these big tracks are required) Just doing some calculations. For this reason (and other ones) some amp designers avoid to use ground plane inside audio power amps. Most of my work is mic or line level audio. For power amps, ground planes are not a great idea unless you carefully cut and direct return ground currents away from other areas. A star like redirecting of return currents is going to work better than a general plane for everything. There are all sorts of design details involved, including the return currents of psu bypass caps. Further into the details are amplifier chips with internal references to either rail, that can also affect ground returns. You end up collecting all the data you can, make the layouts and test. That's why you see revision 2, 3 or more on pcb's that continue to evolve from the designers.
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Post by ppa on May 10, 2015 11:08:10 GMT -6
I do power amplifiers from many years. Yes, I use star ground, but sometimes I use ground plane but not for ground tracks but as screen where it is required.
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