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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 22, 2014 11:54:54 GMT -6
kcatthedog How long did it take you to get your Blue Line? I emailed, got a response back and they said I would be invoiced when my number comes up. I asked if that email served as my place in line and she said yes... Well shane hooked me up with an alternative source at the time who had them in stock so I didn't wait at all just shipping from Europe, but I don't believe they have any stock currently otherwise I would have pm'd you so yes I believe thiersch does new builds by order sequence for my re-skin they actually haven't told me a time. i kept them in the loop but I sent it over a month ago and then German customs admired it for 2 weeks, so they have a only had it a week I don't even think about it anymore, I got my Mike last july and if I have it for christmas I will be happy, unless santa steals it to cut his new trax ! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 22, 2014 13:02:43 GMT -6
I Have a bees k7, blueline, redline. In my MK47, the blue has an inexplicable quality( I very much hear that on Herbie's MK) and the clearest vision of them all, it made me forget about everything except how great it sounded, the red had slightly more bottom at the cost of some focus, it lives in a very cool custom schoeps mic for now, and the k7 is in a drawer next to a k6. In my personal experience, I've found that capsules choices have the biggest effect on the sound of a mic. Of course ymmv The thing that I thought was similar in the clips I've heard of yours and Herbie's was the top end. Just this really crystal clear, detailed top end. Which is not really what I would think of with a U47...but who knows, maybe I'm just talking out of my ass. I thought that top end was might be due to the C12 (on that acoustic thing you posted), but I feel like it was a very similar sound to the acoustics I heard from Cowboy. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 22, 2014 13:04:29 GMT -6
I Have a bees k7, blueline, redline. In my MK47, the blue has an inexplicable quality( I very much hear that on Herbie's MK) and the clearest vision of them all, it made me forget about everything except how great it sounded, the red had slightly more bottom at the cost of some focus, it lives in a very cool custom schoeps mic for now, and the k7 is in a drawer next to a k6. In my personal experience, I've found that capsules choices have the biggest effect on the sound of a mic. Of course ymmv Absolutely...you should hear some of the before and afters that Shannon has done with something like a Rode NT1...amazing. I would say it's 90-95% of the sound. Well, I'm sure the Tranny has a bit to do with it too. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 22, 2014 13:09:15 GMT -6
kcatthedog How long did it take you to get your Blue Line? I emailed, got a response back and they said I would be invoiced when my number comes up. I asked if that email served as my place in line and she said yes... Well shane hooked me up with an alternative source at the time who had them in stock so I didn't wait at all just shipping from Europe, but I don't believe they have any stock currently otherwise I would have pm'd you so yes I believe thiersch does new builds by order sequence for my re-skin they actually haven't told me a time. i kept them in the loop but I sent it over a month ago and then German customs admired it for 2 weeks, so they have a only had it a week I don't even think about it anymore, I got my Mike last july and if I have it for christmas I will be happy, unless santa steals it to cut his new trax ! Yeah - it took me the LONGEST to pull the trigger on this just because I despise the wait. But I committed and I'm just gonna hope it gets here before February. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 22, 2014 13:28:51 GMT -6
I Have a bees k7, blueline, redline. In my MK47, the blue has an inexplicable quality( I very much hear that on Herbie's MK) and the clearest vision of them all, it made me forget about everything except how great it sounded, the red had slightly more bottom at the cost of some focus, it lives in a very cool custom schoeps mic for now, and the k7 is in a drawer next to a k6. In my personal experience, I've found that capsules choices have the biggest effect on the sound of a mic. Of course ymmv The thing that I thought was similar in the clips I've heard of yours and Herbie's was the top end. Just this really crystal clear, detailed top end. Which is not really what I would think of with a U47...but who knows, maybe I'm just talking out of my ass. I thought that top end was might be due to the C12 (on that acoustic thing you posted), but I feel like it was a very similar sound to the acoustics I heard from Cowboy. I don't think I've posted just a vocal with my MK, i'll try to do that this weekend, and once again i'll apologize up front for my Kermit the frog meets Barry Manilow vocal stylings lol. |
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Post by kidvybes on Nov 22, 2014 14:56:44 GMT -6
...just to further clarify my statement that choice of capsule is a very personal proposition, I quote Klaus Heyne's recent posts in reference to the differences between the PVC M7 and the K47, the historic variants and what one might classify as a 'traditional M7 U47': "PVC M7 made by Neumann in Berlin were used in M49 from 1949 to 1958/59 when the company switched to the polyester-diaphragm K49 (which is practically identical with the K47) on all its large diaphragm mics, including the U47/48." "For a while after DuPont's introduction of polyester in the late 1950s, Neumann/Gefell did not have access to it. During the Cold War, DuPont and other U.S. companies did not do business with communist countries, including state-owned East German manufacturers, like Neumann/Gefell. That forced Gefell to continue manufacturing M7/PVC long after it was discontinued by Neumann in Berlin. Neumann had, in the mid 1950s, noticed the tonal and frequency changes in PVC that occur over time, due to the hardening of the material through aging, and jumped at the chance to find a solution to diaphragm deterioration. Dupont's Mylar®, as used in K47 and all other Neumann mic capsules aside of the M150, does not seem to deteriorate, as can be seen in capsules that are now more than fifty years old." "The other reason why Neumann was eager to replace the M7: casting PVC is an art, not a science. Hand-casting diaphragms from liquid PVC poured over a flat surface in a specific angle, then tensioning them over backplates, also by hand, is a rather imprecise skill whose outcome in quality varies." "The PVC material used until ca. 2005 is no longer available to Microtech Gefell. And, as far as I experienced, the current product's sound reflects that. "And the M7 capsules of both companies differ, physically and acoustically, and have always differed. Neumann in Berlin (pre-WWII and again after the factory was moved/rebuilt in a different sector of Berlin) and Neumann in Gefell (which was later re-named Microtech Gefell), were producing capsules so distinctly different from each other, that a lay person can immediately tell the difference looking at the two: Neumann/Berlin always has, and still is using a larger center-lead-out screw thread (M1.4) on all of its large capsules, while Gefell is still using an M1 thread to date. Number and distances between the outer concentric ridges of the backplate also serve to identify the origin of the capsule as either Berlin or Gefell." "The sounds of both capsules were also distinct: while both were superb, they used different suppliers which mixed slightly different PVC formulations: Berlin used IG Farben's, Gefell used VEB Bitterfeld's products. The composition of the material and its solvents, as I can now clearly observe with the current batch of MG's M7 PVC, makes a difference in sound: Its molecular structure determines some of the diaphragm's vibrational characteristics." "Neumann M7 sound distinctly different from Neumann K47. Both are compelling and iconic sounds: M7 is authoritative in the upper mid frequency range, ca. an octave above where the K47 shines. Or, to put it simply: K47 appears more full-bodied and M7 is a bit more brilliant up top without being strident. In the absence of truly great M7 PVC currently available (again, my personal opinion), Neumann's K47 is in my judgement the most musical capsule made by any LDC manufacturer today. And consistency of quality, sample to sample, is unsurpassed in the business of capsule manufacture." "In past decades, Neumann's K47-style capsules, which were all identical in build, were separated before final model assignment by capacitance uniformity, front-to-rear: those that measured good uniformity were selected to be installed in M49 and U48, or sold as spare parts, marked "Typ U48". The rest went into U47. After introduction of the fet47, there were again two K47 styles available as spare parts: 'K47/49' (i.e. selected capsules for multi-pattern mics) and 'K47fet' for the mic that uses only one side, hence performance of the other side was not an issue. Since the mid 1990s, better quality control has made K47 sub-categories and distinctions superfluous (at least that is what Neumann claims), so that now all of the capsules of the K47 variety, regardless of which mic model they end up in, are called the same." *source of quotes: www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/834082-neumann-m7-vs-k47-49-a.html |
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Post by kidvybes on Nov 22, 2014 15:04:21 GMT -6
...in reference to the Thiersch M7 PVC, Klaus had this to say: "Thiersch's build quality is excellent. Never had a capsule fail, even after years of use. His materials and craftsmanship are great, too. The "lack of 100%" I perceived comes from something else: These days. with CNC lathes and good observation you can reverse-engineer a backplate perfectly- several suppliers do that already, so that's no problem anymore. But the "Secret Sauce" is in the diaphragm, its chemical composition (especially when it is made of PVC!), its fabrication as a membrane, finally, its preparation and tensioning onto the backplate structure. Neumann guards that process like the Coca Cola formula- They know that the quality of their capsules cannot easily be reverse-engineered without that knowledge. And history has shown no one has been able to do it as of yet. (Same goes for AKG's CK12 capsule.) So, what is missing in the Thiersch (and, to a certain extent, the Sneesby) M7/K47 when comparing their sound to a Neumann K47 or well-preserved Gefell or Berlin M7? In a very good capsule, there is an illusion of hearing the sound three-dimensionally. One seems to be able to get 'behind' the sound, in a spacial sense. A less nebulous explanation may be: When the capsule can process mid and high frequencies exactly as they appear in complex incoming waveforms, i.e. with speed, and without group delay of some of these impulses, that higher 'resolution' will sound better to my ears than a capsule that cannot process these frequencies properly in the same time relationship to one another that they arrived at the capsule, and processed with appropriate speed. As a related analogy: we have all heard really bad audio processing- cheap mics, bad interconnects, preamps, etc., and we usually dislike these components because we feel that especially the mid range in those devices is 'crunchy', constricted, 'honky', or any variety of words that describe the same thing: a lack of smoothness through timely processing of complex waveforms. Where I think Sneesby is slightly ahead in his copy of the K47 is that his capsules are faster and more transparent in the higher mid range (the area of response described as "reedy' in original M7/K47) whereas Thiersch's sometimes have a bit too much mid range 'crunch' for my taste, or, lately more prevalent, the very upper end of the response curve (8kHz +) is too rolled-off to produce the 'air' that the capsule needs to make the sound appear three-dimensional. First, in my Sneesby test I did not use an M7 but a K47 with polyester-diaphragms, as with Sneesby's K7. Yes, I am sure that even the best specimens of original M7 I have heard, have aged, as all of them irreversibly will: the low end goes gradually, noise goes up, and then they just disintegrate. But because I have heard a lot of original M7s, I can compare and extrapolate, and can only speculate that if Berlin M7 may have sounded even better in the 1950s, they still sound pretty damn good today-when they work. Because Microtech Gefell has made a very close rendering of the Berlin M7 as recently as 5 years ago, I can say with subjective certainty what the defining quality of a healthy M7 PVC is. And that same quality still shines through in the old Berlin M7s as well, as long as they still work. So, aging in this case does not affect or negate the ability to compare qualities. That's something for you to consider when you purchase an original Berlin M7: You will know right away whether it's still usable or not. The big unanswered question you pose is: how can Thiersch, Sneesby, and hopefully others as well, bridge the remaining quality gap? This can not be done with the analyzing instruments we have available today. Measuring audio is still in its infancy, and correlating measurements to how pleasurably we perceive sound is non-existent as a science at this point. Neumann will not be helpful, either, for obvious reasons. Ideally you find an enthusiastic capsule maker or tinkerer who has taken his capsule quality as far as he could, then you experiment with dozens of variations, variable at a time, and listen for audible changes. If a change made the capsule sound better, you explore that particular change further. This buckshot approach is actually done quite successfully in the R&D for cancer drugs. Millions of chemical compounds are bought by research labs, then exposed to cancer cells, until one compound shows efficacy. So I can imagine a capsule maker with a cooperative personality working with someone with good ears and listening to that person's input and modifying the design accordingly, until it bears fruit. (Neumann and Kühnast worked that way in the 1930s). This stuff is subjective to a certain extent anyway. We also need to differentiate between Thiersch's M7 PE and his PVC capsules, which have distinctly different tonalities. I also happen to think hat MG's PE M7 are very good, a lot better than their PVC M7." *source: www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/495536-test-ben-sneesbys-k47-type-capsules-klaus-heyne.html(Sorry to be linking "purple site" threads, but my intention is to pass along as much historic/expert information as might apply to this discussion...) Like I previously stated, this stuff is all very dicey and even an "expert" like Klaus, other than historic fact, has his own personal preferences and "taste"... |
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Post by drbill on Nov 22, 2014 15:16:12 GMT -6
I know Tony doesn't really like Sneesby, but I heard clips of the blue, red and K7 (beezneez) capsules in this mic, and I really like the K7, and had no reservations about purchasing it. Seems Klaus likes it better as well..... And I could have put any capsule in it. I rolled the dice on the K7 because it had a good rep and was an easier / quicker purchase. Just my $.02.
BTW, Dan and Scott heard them all too - they were doing the comparison. And although I don't want to speak for them, they certainly didn't dis the K7.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 22, 2014 15:20:33 GMT -6
JK; u should be good as I think the normal cycle is 4-6 weeks !
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,099 
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Post by ericn on Nov 22, 2014 16:23:01 GMT -6
The differences in the top modern is subtle and very subjective, to all but the most experienced ears. Non of them comes up as 100% correct against a vintage Berlin or Gefell. You really have to judge for yourself, I wouldn't say no to a Redline, Blueline, Flea ( skinned by Thirsch with a slightly different backplate made by Flea who mills Thirsch's back plates) , Beesneez.
At this point the Blueline is the defacto excepted standard, Unless you want the tone of a K47, where you can still get a Geniuine high quality Neumann .
I like the Blueline because let's face it everybody knows what it is, it is very close to the rea deal and is rather affordable. It Gives the general balance and feel of the real ones, it could be better we just haven't got there yet .
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Post by RicFoxx on Nov 22, 2014 21:36:52 GMT -6
I have the Beesneez in mine and it sounds fantastic. Im sure the other ones are nice to.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 23, 2014 9:40:58 GMT -6
check out chung's new post on his studio 939 site and at group diy: he is putting up multiple clips from different mikes and with different caps.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 23, 2014 16:27:42 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 23, 2014 16:29:37 GMT -6
Ok. See that it has the Alctron body.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 24, 2014 10:55:17 GMT -6
Ya exactly: the MK-U47 is all about the custom rebuild of body ect and original headbasket ( from Flea), so closest to the original !
Cat5 had pointed out a while back that the two builds sonically would be similiar
You can go to group diy microphone and grab the thread there
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 24, 2014 12:08:24 GMT -6
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 24, 2014 18:42:46 GMT -6
c i nvr lie  |
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Post by category5 on Nov 24, 2014 20:39:49 GMT -6
The MK47 has different capacitors and the smaller BV08c dual chamber transformer (instead of the historically accurate 4 chamber) and uses a relay for pattern switching (which may or may not affect sound quality). The MK-U47 is definitely the one you want if budget allows, but that said the MK47 is the same circuit design, and with a similar body/headgrille and same capsule should be very much in the ballpark of the big brother. @tonycamp, you should get some ptfe/silver wire for the build instead of the standard hook-up wore included with the kit. It's awesome to work with and can almost suck solder through the air.  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 24, 2014 21:45:38 GMT -6
Only the best for the admin!
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 24, 2014 22:30:51 GMT -6
The MK47 has different capacitors and the smaller BV08c dual chamber transformer (instead of the historically accurate 4 chamber) and uses a relay for pattern switching (which may or may not affect sound quality). The MK-U47 is definitely the one you want if budget allows, but that said the MK47 is the same circuit design, and with a similar body/headgrille and same capsule should be very much in the ballpark of the big brother. @tonycamp, you should get some ptfe/silver wire for the build instead of the standard hook-up wore included with the kit. It's awesome to work with and can almost suck solder through the air. why.. do i need more? 8) |
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Post by category5 on Nov 24, 2014 22:49:29 GMT -6
The MK47 has different capacitors and the smaller BV08c dual chamber transformer (instead of the historically accurate 4 chamber) and uses a relay for pattern switching (which may or may not affect sound quality). The MK-U47 is definitely the one you want if budget allows, but that said the MK47 is the same circuit design, and with a similar body/headgrille and same capsule should be very much in the ballpark of the big brother. @tonycamp, you should get some ptfe/silver wire for the build instead of the standard hook-up wore included with the kit. It's awesome to work with and can almost suck solder through the air. why.. do i need more? 8) No. I mean instead of. It's a real treat to work with. I hate cheap wire where the insulation shrinks when heat is applied. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 24, 2014 23:14:24 GMT -6
why?.. do i need more than i already have? 8) No. I mean instead of. It's a real treat to work with. I hate cheap wire where the insulation shrinks when heat is applied. Joke did not compute.... the bold is what i should have said 8) i'll be here all week folks, don't forget to tip your waitresses...(insert facepalm here 8) |
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 24, 2014 14:02:30 GMT -6
tonycamphd says he's starting mine tomorrow! (I make my slaves work on Christmas)...I'm as happy as a little schoolgirl! I think he's gonna start a build thread - be fun to watch!
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 24, 2014 18:08:33 GMT -6
yes, a big fat elf will build you most of this on xmass day, hopefully the eggnog won't impair my judgement? lol, i keed, i'm looking forward to it 8)
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 24, 2014 18:27:54 GMT -6
don't those blue caps sound xtra smooth and tasty after an egg nog bath ? |
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