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Post by indiehouse on Nov 17, 2014 9:18:45 GMT -6
OK, this has always bugged me and I'm asking to finally clear this up. How are you guys setting up Aux channels to run your verb? Specifically, I'm asking about panning. Let's say I have some mono instruments that I want to run through the same reverb (e.g., guitars). If I set up a stereo Aux channel and put a stereo reverb instance on, the pan on the aux sends on my mono instrument tracks doesn't work.
I can set up a multi-mono reverb instance on the stereo aux channel, and the pans will work. However, I lose out on most of my reverb options. My UAD Plate140 doesn't do multi-mono and none of my Valhalla operates in multi-mono.
What's the solution? Panning reverb is important. Am I forced to continue setting up a bunch of mono aux channels? Seems inefficient.
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Post by svart on Nov 17, 2014 13:21:54 GMT -6
On my mixer, I have Aux sends 1-8 on each channel, so i generally set up the odd numbers on left and the even numbers on right. If I want something panned left, I just assign the send to something like Aux 1. If I want right I assign to Aux 2, etc.
I also have 8 returns, so I just have those set up to return to the master mix.
So for me it's as easy as adjusting the level for each aux that determines panning, etc. Center would be Aux 1 and 2 being the same level, and so forth.
I also mostly use hardware/outboard reverb too, which might make a difference.
A stereo plugin reverb should still be able to have one side plugged in and give you mostly one sided output. It all depends on how it's set up I would think.
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Post by popmann on Nov 17, 2014 13:58:49 GMT -6
that's ironically what was referred to as "true stereo" operation in hardware....moved to software and nearly none work that way. I've written about it before....it's hugely important to me and the sound I get. Thus--I still use software.
The 2cAudio reverbs can be configured for true stereo operation by changing the input matrix for the ERs and tails to have no (or as much as you want) "cross". Logic seems unable to pan the sends itself....and the workaround I foudn was to use Space Designer, which gives an option to invert the input panning--then tell the aux to tap the signal post panner--so, something panned hard right will be sent hard right, but since the Space Design is set to invert, will be hard left. So, Space designer seem to work true stereo....but, only in Logic--which doesn't allow you to pan into the aux....so....that's the work around there.
Steinberg's IR will do what is ideal--which is to allow it to configure early reflections to be true stereo....and the tails to swirl--this works perfectly fine for my use--and Cubase DOES allow panning into the auxes. I literally would not choose a DAW that doesn't. ProTools does. Nuendo does. Logic does not. I never got far enough with Reaper to know as last time I auditioned it, the IO compensation didn't work, so that killed the deal before we got into more subtleties of mixing.
Svart's mixing analog--and that's key as I realized when I got over the shock of "why the F doesn't anything in software work like this after having used this technicque for 20 years of mixing?"--that technically, I was indeed using two mono aux sends to address the true stereo units--using the balance of the two sends to "pan into" the FX. Thus someone who was designing a DAW by looking at a mixer schematic wouldn't ever think about such use cases. In fact, Steinberg likely implemented such a killer aux system to drive multiple stereo headphone mixes mainly....and I've just co-opted it for hardware and software FX use.
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Post by indiehouse on Nov 17, 2014 14:21:17 GMT -6
That's great info and I appreciate the response!
...but I'm still unclear as to what the issue is. What do I need to do to pan the reverb? Set up a bunch of mono auxes? Or am I placing too much importance on reverb panning? Is reverb always hard L and hard R? Is stereo instances the standard? I feel like when I send a bunch of tracks to a stereo aux (and panning has NO effect), then my mix usually loses a bit of punch and definition.
I realize these questions dabble in "noobie" territory, but after all these years, it's something I still need to fully understand.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,099 
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Post by ericn on Nov 17, 2014 14:24:34 GMT -6
Svart nailed it, something that sometimes works if your stereo reverb send pretty much is the same as your main mix, use a sub group(s).
Also I never use the effect returns for effects, I prefer input ch so I can EQ and layer. My effects.
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Post by popmann on Nov 17, 2014 14:36:02 GMT -6
Cubase has "send routing" you can enable in the view that gives you full control of panning to every stereo aux send. Then, you just need a reverb that operates in true stereo. ProTools uses the same, if momery serves--actual pans on the sends.
I don't bother with mono auxes....that is how it's dealt with on an analog desk (usually IME)....unless obviously I literally do WANT a mono aux. But, I mean for this purpose....if you do multiple mono instances, you will have to diddle with them and save each instance....then use the aux's send to create some amount of cross pollination...
You obviously CAN mix without doing any of this. I was just shocked that after 20 years of analog and hardware digital mixing that there was SO little capability for this in software.
this is how I use my KSP8. FWIW. Almost always.
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Post by indiehouse on Nov 17, 2014 14:43:22 GMT -6
ProTools uses the same, if momery serves--actual pans on the sends. This is the problem. I'm on PT10 and this doesn't work for me. The 'actual pans on the sends' does nothing, if sending to a stereo aux with a stereo reverb plug. |
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Post by svart on Nov 17, 2014 14:47:45 GMT -6
ProTools uses the same, if momery serves--actual pans on the sends. This is the problem. I'm on PT10 and this doesn't work for me. The 'actual pans on the sends' does nothing, if sending to a stereo aux with a stereo reverb plug. If you can, try two mono Aux's, one assigned left and one right, if you can. Sometimes hardware and software might mix your left and right signal for "pseudo-stereo". My LXP15 reverb unit does this. It has two inputs and two outputs but if I only plug one input it, it still has two output signals. |
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Post by popmann on Nov 17, 2014 14:49:10 GMT -6
You have to have a TRUE STEREO plug....or hardware--where nearly anything that is NOT Lexicon will be true stereo for all intents and purposes.
You can't have something that says it's stereo. They ALL say they're stereo--they do not behave like the 20-30 years previous digital reverb boxes did. Mute the reverb and solo the aux--I bet ProTools is doing it's job, and the reverb plug is collapsing the input to mono like many Lexi's did.
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Post by drbill on Nov 17, 2014 14:52:56 GMT -6
indie - you're confusing sends with what's coming out the verb. Your verb of choice does not have TRUE stereo input. That's your problem, not the aux sends. If you un-instantiate the verb on the aux return, and pan the guitar send back and forth on the aux send, you will see that it indeed DOES pan back and forth on the aux return. The "problem" - if you will - is in the fact that the verb does not have a TRUE STEREO (i.e.: pan-able) input.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 17, 2014 15:19:33 GMT -6
Unless i'm understanding wrong(quite possible), In PT10 the FMF(follow main fader), link and mirror buttons on the aux sends/in conjunction with a mono/stereo verb inserted on an aux channel should allow you to achieve any panning feed/return you want in PT10
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Post by indiehouse on Nov 17, 2014 15:20:20 GMT -6
Ah, I see. So the UAD EMT140 and the Valhalla verbs are not true stereo. If I'm wanting to pan, then I'll either need to set up 2 mono auxes (Hard L and Hard R) with duplicate verbs on each, or just insert the plug on the channel. It seems to me, if I want to pan the verb with the instrument, then the only options are to set up a dedicated reverb per instrument, right? Is that common practice? (panning verbs with the instrument vs sending instruments to a non-pan-able stereo verb)
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 17, 2014 15:21:48 GMT -6
to be clear "mono/stereo" means mono to stereo.
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Post by indiehouse on Nov 17, 2014 16:28:25 GMT -6
to be clear "mono/stereo" means mono to stereo. As in 'multi-mono'? |
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Post by donr on Nov 17, 2014 18:00:53 GMT -6
Most 'verbs are mono in, stereo out, even most hardware ones.
In DP, (must be similar in other DAWs) create a mono aux bus, and that bus will be your send from any channel. Then put a reverb plug into the aux bus fader strip. In DP, the bus fader then automatically switches to a stereo bus, but the signal feeding into the reverb plug is still mono, as is the send.
In hardware, you'd use a mono send, feed the reverb, and bring the reverb back to the console in stereo.
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Post by popmann on Nov 17, 2014 19:02:26 GMT -6
Except that, excluding Lexicon, that's not my experience. The only not Lexicon box I've ever owned in fact, in 25 years of home studio that wasn't true stereo was a Quadrverb from the late 80s. Even their "mid/low end" units in the 90s operated on a true stereo input matrix--the Quadraverb 2 and Q20....and MidiVerb4, which is still for sale at retail, which baffles me....
what funny about this....is that until diagnosing software reverb's "challenge" in the way I work--I never notice Lexi was always mono to stereo....I just knew it blew chunks to use it panning into it compared to anything else. When I started to diagnose why software sounded so much worse--that's what I found. Software is not intended for aux use. It's tested AND demo'd almost 100% on a single instrument.
2cAudio's Aether. Steinberg's Reverence. Logic's Space Designer....and the Sony Oxford was "mostly" stereo--it didn't allow you to take it 100% discrete, but it would do a large percentage discrete.
I'd love to know if someone finds others. I would love to retire my KSP8.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 17, 2014 19:22:04 GMT -6
to be clear "mono/stereo" means mono to stereo. As in 'multi-mono'? as in 1 in 2 out. |
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Post by jeromemason on Nov 17, 2014 22:29:45 GMT -6
I've never had this issue.... In PT if you have an aux track with the verb on it and you have a mono audio track, when you select to send that audio track to an aux whatever your inputs are for the aux should be selected on the send. Are you sure that you're not setting for instance the aux reverb as "bus 21-22" and then selecting the audio track send to "bus 21"?? If you have the send set to send to both bus input channels you should be able to pan it left and right. I do this all the time by putting a verb send on a guitar and panning the audio to the reverb on the opposite side of where the guitar track is panned. Just wanted to throw that out there as I've done that a few times.
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